What assumptions can I make on a CPO car?
08-17-15, 10:41 AM
#1
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What assumptions can I make on a CPO car?
Looking at a few different CPO options for a 2013. I have never bought a CPO car before and I'm wondering what (if anything) I can assume from the fact that it is a CPO car.
I gather it doesn't really mean that it has not has any body/paint repairs, correct? Does it at least mean that it could not have had any 'major' accident damage? Do they specifically note in the inspection report what repairs are needed/done? Can that be trusted?
The car would have both the CPO/Orig warranty in effect so I'm actually less worried about mechanical issues since those would be covered. But you can't undo accident damage or paint work. When I look at the service history most cars I have looked at imply that touch-up work was done, but obviously that could be anywhere from buffing a scratch to painting a panel...
Thoughts? Insight? Experiences?
Thanks
I gather it doesn't really mean that it has not has any body/paint repairs, correct? Does it at least mean that it could not have had any 'major' accident damage? Do they specifically note in the inspection report what repairs are needed/done? Can that be trusted?
The car would have both the CPO/Orig warranty in effect so I'm actually less worried about mechanical issues since those would be covered. But you can't undo accident damage or paint work. When I look at the service history most cars I have looked at imply that touch-up work was done, but obviously that could be anywhere from buffing a scratch to painting a panel...
Thoughts? Insight? Experiences?
Thanks
08-17-15, 10:47 AM
#2
You can be assured of a warranty and a car that was chosen because it has a clear Carfax . Everything else is still a crap shoot and the problem often is that the dealership will give you a false sense of confidence.
All used cars should be treated equally with the same amount scrutiny.
All used cars should be treated equally with the same amount scrutiny.
08-17-15, 11:17 AM
#4
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You can be assured of a warranty and a car that was chosen because it has a clear Carfax . Everything else is still a crap shoot and the problem often is that the dealership will give you a false sense of confidence.
All used cars should be treated equally with the same amount scrutiny.
All used cars should be treated equally with the same amount scrutiny.
So do they weed anything out or if it has a clean title and clean carfax (regardless of whether either is true) then it is a candidate for CPO?
08-17-15, 01:15 PM
#5
Pole Position
They check all the wear items, and if needed, they will be replaced. So your short term maintance will be low. They usually do a great job at cleaning the inside and restoring the outside. Usually I say. And if you find little things that bother you, I have had good luck with fixing them. It's easy to go onto the lexus website and see what it says about CPO cars. You drive home that point to the dealership
08-17-15, 01:38 PM
#6
The first 3 comments sums it up and well said.
08-17-15, 01:50 PM
#7
Lexus Champion
Since CPO cars are sold exclusively through Lexus dealers with a 3-year/100K warranty and there are standards in place for eligibility, inspection, and required re-conditioning (not just for safety-related items, but for both cosmetic and other mechanical problems), the odds are pretty high that you are getting an excellent vehicle that looks good and drives well.
Could you find such vehicles that aren't CPO? Of course, but your search might be longer, and if you want the protection of a third-party warranty, IMO negative reviews abound for most of these products. Lexus has a vested interest in selling quality CPO vehicles, and I believe most Lexus dealers will go further in dealing with issues that might arise with a CPO vehicle, whether covered by warranty (most issues will be) or not compared with non-Lexus dealers and certainly compared with private parties.
Chances are that you'll pay a premium for a CPO vehicle, but IMO there is often room for negotiation on price. I wouldn't hesitate to make an upgrade to the most recent navigation maps as part of the negotiation, nor would I hesitate in demanding any reasonable cosmetic flaws getting corrected as part of the CPO deal. Note that I said "reasonable"; this is after all a used car, and as such you should expect some wear.
It doesn't hurt to get an independent inspection of the car. In the unlikely event (IMO) that an issue is found, you should have good leverage in getting that rectified on a CPO vehicle.
Could you find such vehicles that aren't CPO? Of course, but your search might be longer, and if you want the protection of a third-party warranty, IMO negative reviews abound for most of these products. Lexus has a vested interest in selling quality CPO vehicles, and I believe most Lexus dealers will go further in dealing with issues that might arise with a CPO vehicle, whether covered by warranty (most issues will be) or not compared with non-Lexus dealers and certainly compared with private parties.
Chances are that you'll pay a premium for a CPO vehicle, but IMO there is often room for negotiation on price. I wouldn't hesitate to make an upgrade to the most recent navigation maps as part of the negotiation, nor would I hesitate in demanding any reasonable cosmetic flaws getting corrected as part of the CPO deal. Note that I said "reasonable"; this is after all a used car, and as such you should expect some wear.
It doesn't hurt to get an independent inspection of the car. In the unlikely event (IMO) that an issue is found, you should have good leverage in getting that rectified on a CPO vehicle.
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08-17-15, 02:24 PM
#8
Carfax is one of the many tools that dealers use to gain your confidence. Works great with educated people that are not nuanced in the art of deception.
08-17-15, 04:16 PM
#9
Lexus Champion
Although it would be wise not to rely solely on the Carfax report, IMO I would rather have one than not. There are more facets to a Carfax report than reported service and accident history, and thus there is value to the report. It is simply one tool of several that should be used when buying a used car. For Lexus service done at Lexus and Toyota dealers, looking online at the car's online service history is an excellent resource.
Reading between the lines, you might find evidence of an accident that indeed doesn't show on Carfax or Autocheck.
When considering a Lexus CPO purchase, make sure you look at the copy of the CPO checklist that should mention inspection results, repairs, and reconditioning that was done to the car.
Reading between the lines, you might find evidence of an accident that indeed doesn't show on Carfax or Autocheck.
When considering a Lexus CPO purchase, make sure you look at the copy of the CPO checklist that should mention inspection results, repairs, and reconditioning that was done to the car.
Last edited by Gbp; 08-22-15 at 02:18 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
08-19-15, 08:42 AM
#10
Some great points mentioned. I'm going to be the first to be a little negative in this thread. You can assume nothing. Sure the car will come with a warranty but just know that the warranty will not cover everything. Look it over as it clearly states what will and won't be covered. It's essentially a way a dealer can charge more by calling the vehicle better than others vehicles. In the end it's nothing special as all used cars are different. You as consumer must make a well educated guess/decision as to the big purchase ahead of you. If you don't know how to look for prior body damage or mechanical problems then pay for a PPI. Interview the person that is going to be doing the inspection. You must be educated enough to ask the right questions and find out how experienced and what type of a report the person inspecting your car is going to do. If the shop has the lowest paid guy on the payroll doing your inspection you are wasting your money and time. If you have a guy who is inspecting everything from a compression/leak test, paint thickness on every body panel for signs of repaint you should be good to go.
The old saying buyer beware is true on any used vehicle no matter if it's a 100,000 mile used car or a certified "X" brand.
One thing you can do is educate yourself on the positive and negatives of this car. All cars have their negatives no matter brand/model. Learn what can go wrong so that if it happens to you your educated and know the solution. One thing I can tell you is that you'll spend a whole lot more time with the car than a BMW or MB. Those cars like going back to the dealer for frequent trips to the service shop. After the car is out of warranty you will find yourself with a few options. First option on fixing the car is to take it to the dealer and be ready to fork out thousands. Next option is to save yourself some money and take it to an independent shop. Third option is to take on the job yourself. Suspension bushings is a hot topic. You can do it yourself by taking out the upper and lower control arms. Take them down to the local independent shop that can press in new bushings and your only going to be out of pocket a few hundred dollars ($450-$600). If you take it to the dealer expect a $4,000 to $7,000 bill.
The old saying buyer beware is true on any used vehicle no matter if it's a 100,000 mile used car or a certified "X" brand.
One thing you can do is educate yourself on the positive and negatives of this car. All cars have their negatives no matter brand/model. Learn what can go wrong so that if it happens to you your educated and know the solution. One thing I can tell you is that you'll spend a whole lot more time with the car than a BMW or MB. Those cars like going back to the dealer for frequent trips to the service shop. After the car is out of warranty you will find yourself with a few options. First option on fixing the car is to take it to the dealer and be ready to fork out thousands. Next option is to save yourself some money and take it to an independent shop. Third option is to take on the job yourself. Suspension bushings is a hot topic. You can do it yourself by taking out the upper and lower control arms. Take them down to the local independent shop that can press in new bushings and your only going to be out of pocket a few hundred dollars ($450-$600). If you take it to the dealer expect a $4,000 to $7,000 bill.
08-19-15, 08:48 AM
#11
Suspension bushings is a hot topic. You can do it yourself by taking out the upper and lower control arms. Take them down to the local independent shop that can press in new bushings and your only going to be out of pocket a few hundred dollars ($450-$600). If you take it to the dealer expect a $4,000 to $7,000 bill.
After my experience I'd advise anyone buying a used '07-'09 (or early-build '10) car to just assume that you are going to have to replace all of the front control arms or bushings unless it was already done in 2011 or later. Bushings on 6 of my '08's 8 arms were completely shot after just 44,000 miles. ~$800 for parts if DIY, ~$2000 if done by an independent with eBay parts, $4000+ if done with Lexus parts.
08-19-15, 09:36 AM
#13
Lead Lap
iTrader: (1)
OP is looking for a 2013. Those came with the revised control arms that so far seem to be a lot less troublesome.
After my experience I'd advise anyone buying a used '07-'09 (or early-build '10) car to just assume that you are going to have to replace all of the front control arms or bushings unless it was already done in 2011 or later. Bushings on 6 of my '08's 8 arms were completely shot after just 44,000 miles. ~$800 for parts if DIY, ~$2000 if done by an independent with eBay parts, $4000+ if done with Lexus parts.
After my experience I'd advise anyone buying a used '07-'09 (or early-build '10) car to just assume that you are going to have to replace all of the front control arms or bushings unless it was already done in 2011 or later. Bushings on 6 of my '08's 8 arms were completely shot after just 44,000 miles. ~$800 for parts if DIY, ~$2000 if done by an independent with eBay parts, $4000+ if done with Lexus parts.
08-19-15, 08:04 PM
#15
Assume NOTHING!
Have your independent mechanic look at it, in fact make them look at it in more detail then a private sale.
In May of 2013 I traded in my 2002 LS 430 to Lexus of Atlantic City and purchased a 2008 LS 460. The car had 49K miles and was CPO. I joked with the salesman "Do I need to put it on a lift"?
He laughed... apparently the joke was on me.
I drove the car around the local roads up to 45 MPH. Looked at service records.. All okay. I've owned 5 other Lexus models with no issues.
I took the car from NJ to PA for State Inspection at a local shop who inspected my 430 for the last 5 years. I waited for them to "just slap on the stickers" as this was a CPO. The car went on the lift and within 3 minutes the tech called me out to the shop and shined a light through the control arm bushings.
5 of 6 he showed me were torn/warped.
I took the car to Thompson Lexus in Doylestown PA and asked them to look at the bushings and check out some wind noise I noticed on the way home from NJ to PA.
The called me 3 hours later and the Service Adviser explained that the car needed all new control arms and bushings. He said and I quote "there is no way that this car was put through a CPO inspection as they would have caught this issue". He also explained that the wind noise was from failed window gaskets and that, unlike the bushings, were not covered under the warranty. It would be $750 to replace them. Keep in mind that I had this CPO car for a total of 35 hours at this point.
Thinking I was dealing with an honorable dealer I called my salesperson at Lexus of Atlantic City. Shared the issues and was told in a few choice words "the warranty will cover the bushings and were sorry about the wind noise, nothing we can do".
I spoke with the service manager and asked about the bushings. He told me "Control arm bushings are not a common issue on these cars and we never see failed bushings".
Really? A quick check on the internet shows this to be a complete lie.
I called Lexus corporate and asked for two things:
1) I wanted the car to be inspected by Thompson or another dealer (not Lexus of AC or Cherry Hill - same owner). I wanted a full CPO 161 point inspection as I had no faith that one was performed by Lexus of AC.
2) I want my warranty extended to 125,000 miles (25,000 additional). This would offer protection as the car was not inspected and sold under false pretenses. I would have never paid the premium I paid for a non-CPO car, even with the warranty.
Lexus called me within 24 hours to tell me that they could not and would not do either..
They offered me $500 service credit that could be applied to the $750 window noise fix. Nice
Thompson Lexus repaired the bushings and billed the "warranty company" $4800...(car in shop for 7 days)
4 months later - I hear a loud clicking noise front passengers side.
Take it in and was told that one of the new bushings was failing and they would replace.
The car sat there for 4 days waiting for parts.
During this time they called to tell me that the right front air shock was leaking - $1900 warranty repair plus the bushing. (car in shop for 8 days)
No alignment was performed after repair.. I had to fight with dealer to align car. They told me "an alignment is not needed after replacing a shock"
Really? Even though the car was pulling hard to the left?
I pulled out my cell phone in the lobby and called a different Lexus dealer and on speaker asked the cost to replace an air strut. The adviser from the other dealer quoted me a price. I asked if alignment was needed. He said "Anytime suspension work is done an alignment must be completed"
The dealer I was at said "Okay we'll align the car".
5 months later.... First brake actuator fails.. replaced (car in shop for 5 days) $2400 billed to warranty company.
3 weeks later .. brake actuator fails again.. This time I lost power brakes and needed to nurse the car into the dealer. (car in shop for 3 days). $2400 billed to warranty company
Last week.. I get home from vacation (5 days) and notice that the left front side of car is very low. 1/2" from wheel well.. I took a few pics thinking that as soon as I start the car it will level off and the dealer may question the need to replace.. I took the car into the dealer (Thompson) same dealer. I know they are tired of me and I too am tired of them. I explained that the drivers side shock is leaking.
They call me 5 hours later to tell me that it is not leaking and they conducted specific tests and there is no leak.. The said "It seems like you had the right side replaced and you are coming close to the end of your warranty?".. I stopped them and said "give me your email address I'll send a pic". (car has 90K miles). I sent the pics and they still were questioning me...
I said okay "I will keep the loaner car for the weekend (this was on Thursday) if the car is good and the shock doesn't leak over the weekend I'll pay for the loaner."
They agreed.. They called me on Monday to share that they were replacing the shock under warranty as it was leaking air.
Also, I agreed to pay for a coolant change as it was due. During the draining they cracked the radiator??? They replaced the radiator for "free" and didn't charge me for the coolant.
(Car in shop for 6 days). $2600 repairs..
To top it off, after almost $14k in warranty repairs, I get in the car and it's pulling hard to the right.
I check the bill and they didn't align the car after suspension work. Are you kidding me?
I paid $30K for the car.. Got $7K in trade value for my 02" 430.. with 225K miles.
I've owned Lexus car/trucks for the last 2 decades... I will never, ever buy another Lexus.
It's not the car.. you get a bad car from time to time.. The level of service and care afforded to a 6 time buyer is unacceptable. I clearly feel that Lexus does not want my business. I worked in the transmission business for years. I know cars fail.. Used cars are a gamble. This car is a lemon. That happens.. What should NEVER happen is the utter disgraceful level of service from Lexus of Atlantic City.
Have your independent mechanic look at it, in fact make them look at it in more detail then a private sale.
In May of 2013 I traded in my 2002 LS 430 to Lexus of Atlantic City and purchased a 2008 LS 460. The car had 49K miles and was CPO. I joked with the salesman "Do I need to put it on a lift"?
He laughed... apparently the joke was on me.
I drove the car around the local roads up to 45 MPH. Looked at service records.. All okay. I've owned 5 other Lexus models with no issues.
I took the car from NJ to PA for State Inspection at a local shop who inspected my 430 for the last 5 years. I waited for them to "just slap on the stickers" as this was a CPO. The car went on the lift and within 3 minutes the tech called me out to the shop and shined a light through the control arm bushings.
5 of 6 he showed me were torn/warped.
I took the car to Thompson Lexus in Doylestown PA and asked them to look at the bushings and check out some wind noise I noticed on the way home from NJ to PA.
The called me 3 hours later and the Service Adviser explained that the car needed all new control arms and bushings. He said and I quote "there is no way that this car was put through a CPO inspection as they would have caught this issue". He also explained that the wind noise was from failed window gaskets and that, unlike the bushings, were not covered under the warranty. It would be $750 to replace them. Keep in mind that I had this CPO car for a total of 35 hours at this point.
Thinking I was dealing with an honorable dealer I called my salesperson at Lexus of Atlantic City. Shared the issues and was told in a few choice words "the warranty will cover the bushings and were sorry about the wind noise, nothing we can do".
I spoke with the service manager and asked about the bushings. He told me "Control arm bushings are not a common issue on these cars and we never see failed bushings".
Really? A quick check on the internet shows this to be a complete lie.
I called Lexus corporate and asked for two things:
1) I wanted the car to be inspected by Thompson or another dealer (not Lexus of AC or Cherry Hill - same owner). I wanted a full CPO 161 point inspection as I had no faith that one was performed by Lexus of AC.
2) I want my warranty extended to 125,000 miles (25,000 additional). This would offer protection as the car was not inspected and sold under false pretenses. I would have never paid the premium I paid for a non-CPO car, even with the warranty.
Lexus called me within 24 hours to tell me that they could not and would not do either..
They offered me $500 service credit that could be applied to the $750 window noise fix. Nice
Thompson Lexus repaired the bushings and billed the "warranty company" $4800...(car in shop for 7 days)
4 months later - I hear a loud clicking noise front passengers side.
Take it in and was told that one of the new bushings was failing and they would replace.
The car sat there for 4 days waiting for parts.
During this time they called to tell me that the right front air shock was leaking - $1900 warranty repair plus the bushing. (car in shop for 8 days)
No alignment was performed after repair.. I had to fight with dealer to align car. They told me "an alignment is not needed after replacing a shock"
Really? Even though the car was pulling hard to the left?
I pulled out my cell phone in the lobby and called a different Lexus dealer and on speaker asked the cost to replace an air strut. The adviser from the other dealer quoted me a price. I asked if alignment was needed. He said "Anytime suspension work is done an alignment must be completed"
The dealer I was at said "Okay we'll align the car".
5 months later.... First brake actuator fails.. replaced (car in shop for 5 days) $2400 billed to warranty company.
3 weeks later .. brake actuator fails again.. This time I lost power brakes and needed to nurse the car into the dealer. (car in shop for 3 days). $2400 billed to warranty company
Last week.. I get home from vacation (5 days) and notice that the left front side of car is very low. 1/2" from wheel well.. I took a few pics thinking that as soon as I start the car it will level off and the dealer may question the need to replace.. I took the car into the dealer (Thompson) same dealer. I know they are tired of me and I too am tired of them. I explained that the drivers side shock is leaking.
They call me 5 hours later to tell me that it is not leaking and they conducted specific tests and there is no leak.. The said "It seems like you had the right side replaced and you are coming close to the end of your warranty?".. I stopped them and said "give me your email address I'll send a pic". (car has 90K miles). I sent the pics and they still were questioning me...
I said okay "I will keep the loaner car for the weekend (this was on Thursday) if the car is good and the shock doesn't leak over the weekend I'll pay for the loaner."
They agreed.. They called me on Monday to share that they were replacing the shock under warranty as it was leaking air.
Also, I agreed to pay for a coolant change as it was due. During the draining they cracked the radiator??? They replaced the radiator for "free" and didn't charge me for the coolant.
(Car in shop for 6 days). $2600 repairs..
To top it off, after almost $14k in warranty repairs, I get in the car and it's pulling hard to the right.
I check the bill and they didn't align the car after suspension work. Are you kidding me?
I paid $30K for the car.. Got $7K in trade value for my 02" 430.. with 225K miles.
I've owned Lexus car/trucks for the last 2 decades... I will never, ever buy another Lexus.
It's not the car.. you get a bad car from time to time.. The level of service and care afforded to a 6 time buyer is unacceptable. I clearly feel that Lexus does not want my business. I worked in the transmission business for years. I know cars fail.. Used cars are a gamble. This car is a lemon. That happens.. What should NEVER happen is the utter disgraceful level of service from Lexus of Atlantic City.
Last edited by BT3100; 08-19-15 at 08:11 PM.