Trans Fluid Change? "NO"
08-10-14, 04:40 AM
#1
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
Trans Fluid Change? "NO"
Thought I'd share this. I saw this on the LexusOwnersClub forum
"I have an 07 LS460 that I bought with 116,000 miles. I wanted to change the fluid as well but the dealer said it was a 'lifetime' fluid. I brought it to the best transmission shop that I know personally. They said that the fluid is more of a hydraulic type fluid and should never be replaced. They have had customers that have demanded the fluid change and two of them had transmission failure within 1,000 miles. Since then they refuse the service. My advise is don't mess with it. FYI"
"I have an 07 LS460 that I bought with 116,000 miles. I wanted to change the fluid as well but the dealer said it was a 'lifetime' fluid. I brought it to the best transmission shop that I know personally. They said that the fluid is more of a hydraulic type fluid and should never be replaced. They have had customers that have demanded the fluid change and two of them had transmission failure within 1,000 miles. Since then they refuse the service. My advise is don't mess with it. FYI"
Last edited by GregoryNP; 08-10-14 at 05:16 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by GregoryNP:
CamelKool (01-31-21),
Parrokeete (10-05-21)
08-10-14, 07:05 AM
#2
I agree. Even with traditional transmission fluid I have been Leary to change bc of all the horror stories. In the case of traditional fluid maybe if you owned the car from day one and changed it regularly it might be ok? But still I'd be Leary.
08-11-14, 08:22 AM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
I have an 07 LS460 that I bought with 116,000 miles. I wanted to change the fluid as well but the dealer said it was a 'lifetime' fluid.
. As I posted before (with a pic of my owners manual), Only US models stipulate not to change the trans fluid. I live 5 mins from the US border in a VERY mild climate, but Lexus requires the fluid to be changed at 50k miles. IMHO, I think it has something to do with marketing in the US. THERE IS NO WAY that a hydraulic fluid (especially one that gets hot) can last forever. "Lifetime fluid"....lifetime of WHAT?
08-11-14, 09:14 AM
#5
Here we go again . As I posted before (with a pic of my owners manual), Only US models stipulate not to change the trans fluid. I live 5 mins from the US border in a VERY mild climate, but Lexus requires the fluid to be changed at 50k miles. IMHO, I think it has something to do with marketing in the US. THERE IS NO WAY that a hydraulic fluid (especially one that gets hot) can last forever. "Lifetime fluid"....lifetime of WHAT?
. As I posted before (with a pic of my owners manual), Only US models stipulate not to change the trans fluid. I live 5 mins from the US border in a VERY mild climate, but Lexus requires the fluid to be changed at 50k miles. IMHO, I think it has something to do with marketing in the US. THERE IS NO WAY that a hydraulic fluid (especially one that gets hot) can last forever. "Lifetime fluid"....lifetime of WHAT?There are many cars sold these days that have lifetime fluids for the transmission as well as the diff, some do not even have drain holes.
The rational is replacing the fluid will not extend the life of these parts because they do not suffer from any exposure contamination and these new modern transmission fluids are less likely to break down due to heat or pressure for the duration of service. This is a very good thing and it brings cost of ownership down significantly.
The following 5 users liked this post by Jasoneo5:
Caflashbob (01-25-23),
CamelKool (01-31-21),
DrQuality (07-26-21),
ninja250 (11-30-20),
Persocon (10-01-21)
08-12-14, 08:17 AM
#7
When I was looking for a 460, I read the mtce report on the several I looked at. On one, the dealer had changed the fluid at the 30K service mark. Re the '02 MB CL500 I traded for my 460, Mercedes first said lifetime tranny fluid. Later on they retracted this and said change at the 40K mile mark. I'll change my 460 at the 40k mile mark. There's no way that keeping fresh fluid in any thing with moving parts in a car is going to cause damage, IMHO. Changing the fluid at 100k miles is not keeping the fluid fresh, however.
Last edited by jud149; 08-12-14 at 08:32 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Persocon (10-01-21)
Trending Topics
08-12-14, 09:25 AM
#8
There are more people that have had shortened transmission life after a transmission fluid flush then those that don't. The reason is the new fluid will dislodge whatever oxidation and varnish and it will clog up the tight passages leading to failure. Transmission fluid flushes can be disaster for the transmission and it's better to be left alone and allowed to complete it's life cycle.
My old BMW had 92k miles with lifetime fluids and had no problems however if someone were to change the lifetime fluid on that car there is an unusual procedure for it that requires you to pump the fluid wile it is running and hot otherwise you may risk failure down the road.
Most owners that have lifetime fills that had a transmission failure problem was not due to the fluid.
The fluid will look bad but it doesn't mean that it is bad.
My old BMW had 92k miles with lifetime fluids and had no problems however if someone were to change the lifetime fluid on that car there is an unusual procedure for it that requires you to pump the fluid wile it is running and hot otherwise you may risk failure down the road.
Most owners that have lifetime fills that had a transmission failure problem was not due to the fluid.
The fluid will look bad but it doesn't mean that it is bad.
08-12-14, 12:57 PM
#9
Here we go again . As I posted before (with a pic of my owners manual), Only US models stipulate not to change the trans fluid. I live 5 mins from the US border in a VERY mild climate, but Lexus requires the fluid to be changed at 50k miles. IMHO, I think it has something to do with marketing in the US. THERE IS NO WAY that a hydraulic fluid (especially one that gets hot) can last forever. "Lifetime fluid"....lifetime of WHAT?
. As I posted before (with a pic of my owners manual), Only US models stipulate not to change the trans fluid. I live 5 mins from the US border in a VERY mild climate, but Lexus requires the fluid to be changed at 50k miles. IMHO, I think it has something to do with marketing in the US. THERE IS NO WAY that a hydraulic fluid (especially one that gets hot) can last forever. "Lifetime fluid"....lifetime of WHAT?Last edited by Lavrishevo; 08-12-14 at 01:01 PM.
The following 4 users liked this post by Lavrishevo:
08-12-14, 01:06 PM
#10
This has been gone through many times over. If anything, look at the LS430 forum. Lexus did the same thing. Called it a lifetime fluid. Now, they recommend a drain and refill at least every 90k miles. We have the same fluid in both of our transmissions. Also, there are not horror stories on the 430 or 460 forums about people loosing the transmission after a service. Can you get 200k on the original fluid? Maybe. Do you want to truly take care of a transmission? Change that fluid. I'm telling you. Lab test after test have proven how much Toyota WS breaks down after 100k miles. I have had mine done twice and it has improved the shifting performance each time.
Also are there many people who own the LS430 that have had transmission failures beyond 100k miles on the original fluid. I have an aunt that has a 430 that has seen 170k on the original fluid and it shifts just fine.
The following users liked this post:
CamelKool (01-31-21)
08-12-14, 01:14 PM
#11
Here is the link to the main thread:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...er-thread.html
I'm not sure where the thread is with the lab results from Blackstone. If I find it I will share it.
No, LS430's are not loosing transmissions. I have seen some examples in the higher mileage but not often at all. I can't accurately comment on whether the ones loosing the transmissions ever changed the fluid. But we all know there is no such thing as a "lifetime fluid".
My 430 with 119k shifted just fine too but I could tell the difference after I changed the fluid. A drain and refill only replaces about 3 quarts at a time. It's also not so much about feeling a difference as maintaining the optimal mixture of clutch pack additives in the fluid. This is what keep the clutches from wearing down and causing buildup.
Link to one of the lab test:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...id-thread.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...er-thread.html
I'm not sure where the thread is with the lab results from Blackstone. If I find it I will share it.
No, LS430's are not loosing transmissions. I have seen some examples in the higher mileage but not often at all. I can't accurately comment on whether the ones loosing the transmissions ever changed the fluid. But we all know there is no such thing as a "lifetime fluid".
My 430 with 119k shifted just fine too but I could tell the difference after I changed the fluid. A drain and refill only replaces about 3 quarts at a time. It's also not so much about feeling a difference as maintaining the optimal mixture of clutch pack additives in the fluid. This is what keep the clutches from wearing down and causing buildup.
Link to one of the lab test:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...id-thread.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimsGX View Post
Blackstone responded to my two questions today. Below are my questions and their responses...
Question #1:
The levels of iron, copper, lead and tin are all elevated in the
report. Would it have done any harm to continue running this oil in my
transmission? I don't know how many PPM the levels would need to be at
to consider them harmful to the transmission if I were to continue to
run it. Do these elements act as an abrasive when they're suspended in
the oil at certain PPM?
Blackstone Response:
It's possible this oil could have been left in use without any damage being done to the transmission. Some types of transmission are more sensitive to others when it comes to wear. The accumulated wear metals do make the oil abrasive though we don't know the exact point at which that happens.
Question #2:
For the universal averages, how are those established? What is the
point of reference / baseline you're referencing for those numbers?
Blackstone Response:
The universal averages show average wear from all normal looking Toyota automatic transmissions we have seen. If we are given miles on the oil, we average that too and for this transmission, the average oil run is about 25,000 miles.
Hi JimsGX -
I went back and looked again at the .pdf you posted and realized a few things now that we understand what the universal averages mean for this fluid. I've noticed that many of the additive levels are much lower than the averages, in particular the zinc, but also the phosphorus, calcium and boron. All of these elements are components of additives used in engine oil and I'm assuming serve a similar purpose in the transmission fluid. All of the wear metals are high and many of them are more than 4x higher than the universal averages. If the wear rate was linear, you would expect your numbers to be about 4x the average, 25,000 miles to 100,000 miles. As an example, the lead levels are about 9x higher and the copper around 5x higher. What this tells me is that as wear metals accumulate in the fluid, as the viscosity drops and as the additives are used up, the rate of wear increases.
Blackstone's comments with regard to at which point these variations become an issue doesn't surprise me at all. They have not conducted stress testing on this transmission type with this fluid type to know at what threshold the transmission is truly at risk. All they can do is show the fact based information with respect to the measurable attributes of the fluid and let you as the owner (and by extension all of us on this message board) draw conclusions as to what this means. The possibility does exist that with a zinc level of 8 (instead of 54) is still sufficient to protect the sliding parts in the transmission. Likewise it is also possible that higher levels of wear metals (at an accelerated rate) were planned for by Toyota and also not a problem. Blackstone simply does not have the proper engineering information to draw that conclusion and, frankly, neither do we.
On the other hand, the report does allow us to draw some conclusions. For example, we can clearly see that the additive pack is being used up and that some of the additive levels are quite low relative to the universal averages. We also can see that the wear metals are up and are increasing in at a non-linear rate relative to the universal average rates. We can also see that the viscosity is low and is outside the lower bound for the normal range. These are the facts which lead me to draw a conclusion. In my opinion, the fluid is past it's usable life at 100k miles.
At the moment, we don't have enough samples/data points to draw any conclusions about what mileage might be an "optimal" mileage to change the fluid other than to say it looks like 100k is too many miles. I would suggest that as many of us as possible submit samples of our transmission fluid for testing to allow all of us to come to some point of view as to how many miles can be reasonably driven on the OEM transmission fluid before a complete fluid exchange is conducted.
JimsGX, thanks for taking action for all of us, this is very insightful information and hopefully the start of additional fact based analysis.
Regards,
Andrew
Originally Posted by JimsGX View Post
Blackstone responded to my two questions today. Below are my questions and their responses...
Question #1:
The levels of iron, copper, lead and tin are all elevated in the
report. Would it have done any harm to continue running this oil in my
transmission? I don't know how many PPM the levels would need to be at
to consider them harmful to the transmission if I were to continue to
run it. Do these elements act as an abrasive when they're suspended in
the oil at certain PPM?
Blackstone Response:
It's possible this oil could have been left in use without any damage being done to the transmission. Some types of transmission are more sensitive to others when it comes to wear. The accumulated wear metals do make the oil abrasive though we don't know the exact point at which that happens.
Question #2:
For the universal averages, how are those established? What is the
point of reference / baseline you're referencing for those numbers?
Blackstone Response:
The universal averages show average wear from all normal looking Toyota automatic transmissions we have seen. If we are given miles on the oil, we average that too and for this transmission, the average oil run is about 25,000 miles.
Hi JimsGX -
I went back and looked again at the .pdf you posted and realized a few things now that we understand what the universal averages mean for this fluid. I've noticed that many of the additive levels are much lower than the averages, in particular the zinc, but also the phosphorus, calcium and boron. All of these elements are components of additives used in engine oil and I'm assuming serve a similar purpose in the transmission fluid. All of the wear metals are high and many of them are more than 4x higher than the universal averages. If the wear rate was linear, you would expect your numbers to be about 4x the average, 25,000 miles to 100,000 miles. As an example, the lead levels are about 9x higher and the copper around 5x higher. What this tells me is that as wear metals accumulate in the fluid, as the viscosity drops and as the additives are used up, the rate of wear increases.
Blackstone's comments with regard to at which point these variations become an issue doesn't surprise me at all. They have not conducted stress testing on this transmission type with this fluid type to know at what threshold the transmission is truly at risk. All they can do is show the fact based information with respect to the measurable attributes of the fluid and let you as the owner (and by extension all of us on this message board) draw conclusions as to what this means. The possibility does exist that with a zinc level of 8 (instead of 54) is still sufficient to protect the sliding parts in the transmission. Likewise it is also possible that higher levels of wear metals (at an accelerated rate) were planned for by Toyota and also not a problem. Blackstone simply does not have the proper engineering information to draw that conclusion and, frankly, neither do we.
On the other hand, the report does allow us to draw some conclusions. For example, we can clearly see that the additive pack is being used up and that some of the additive levels are quite low relative to the universal averages. We also can see that the wear metals are up and are increasing in at a non-linear rate relative to the universal average rates. We can also see that the viscosity is low and is outside the lower bound for the normal range. These are the facts which lead me to draw a conclusion. In my opinion, the fluid is past it's usable life at 100k miles.
At the moment, we don't have enough samples/data points to draw any conclusions about what mileage might be an "optimal" mileage to change the fluid other than to say it looks like 100k is too many miles. I would suggest that as many of us as possible submit samples of our transmission fluid for testing to allow all of us to come to some point of view as to how many miles can be reasonably driven on the OEM transmission fluid before a complete fluid exchange is conducted.
JimsGX, thanks for taking action for all of us, this is very insightful information and hopefully the start of additional fact based analysis.
Regards,
Andrew
Last edited by Lavrishevo; 08-12-14 at 01:34 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Persocon (10-01-21)
08-12-14, 01:33 PM
#12
Here is the link to the main thread:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...er-thread.html
I'm not sure where the thread is with the lab results from Blackstone. If I find it I will share it.
No, LS430's are not loosing transmissions. I have seen some examples in the higher mileage but not often at all. I can't accurately comment on whether the ones loosing the transmissions ever changed the fluid. But we all know there is no such thing as a "lifetime fluid".
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...er-thread.html
I'm not sure where the thread is with the lab results from Blackstone. If I find it I will share it.
No, LS430's are not loosing transmissions. I have seen some examples in the higher mileage but not often at all. I can't accurately comment on whether the ones loosing the transmissions ever changed the fluid. But we all know there is no such thing as a "lifetime fluid".
I don't doubt that the transmission fluid will break down but it doesn't necessary mean that it's bad for the rest of the duration of the service. These days life time fluids are a reality because the technology keeps changing in lubricants and fluids. Granted there is no such thing in the technical sense of lifetime anything but it's actually implied is there is no need to replace the fluid for the service life of the part.
I have heard of anecdotal evidence from both owners and mechanics that have witnessed transmission fluid failures because of transmission flushes.
The only way to avoid this from happening if you believe in flushes is to change it out every 50k miles.
But getting back to the rational of the argument, if you have a lubricant failure things will go south pretty quick to cause great alarm all over the nets.The majority of owners follow dealer recommended service then those that taken upon themselves to be preemptive for piece of mind.
08-12-14, 01:51 PM
#13
Flushes are never recommended. Drain and refill is the best and safest way. Check what I added to my post above. If it helps the debate, the transmission was designed by Aisin to be serviced in this way.
Last edited by Lavrishevo; 08-12-14 at 02:00 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Persocon (10-01-21)
08-12-14, 02:23 PM
#14
As for the automatic transmission fluid replacement I found the discussion interesting but nothing conclusive even thought the TBN is a little low which doesn't mean much unless certain metals are more prone for failure as a result. If the transmission fluid loses it's protective qualities there would be a wide pandemic of people that have transmission issues after 100k which would bring light to the reputation of the manufacture.
I do believe the transmission is serviceable for a fluid change however it is most likely designed that way when actual transmission work is warranted.
Toyota makes great transmissions and I doubt they will lose their reputations with their recommendations.
08-12-14, 03:05 PM
#15
What is known and quite conclusive is the tried and true longevity of the ls400 models. Many examples exist of 300 - 400k miles transmissions. The way this is done has been proven over and over. The only reason Lexus calls it lifetime, in the United States alone, is to keep the owner cost ratings down. Also, the manufacturer, Aisin, does recommend it be serviced. The procedure on the 460 is almost exactly like the 430. It was designed to be serviced. Don't skip over the metal content in the analysis. Very important and revealing. It's all about the clutch pack additives to reduce wear. My dealer does the drain and refill for $99
The following users liked this post:
Persocon (10-01-21)
