View Poll Results: What would you do about this?
Live with it
8
40.00%
Contact NHTSA
6
30.00%
Sue
2
10.00%
Sell the car and never buy Lexus again
4
20.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll
Lexus: How to Avoid Fixing Design Flaws
04-29-14, 07:48 PM
#46
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For those who expressed an interest in the location of the skid event, you may find it using this google maps
URL: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0661.../data=!3m1!1e3
The aerial view shows a bold right arrow in the lane I was in going over the freeway. The white car going down the ramp is approximately where I was, unintentionally: crossing from the inner right turn lane to the outer one. If this view gives anyone ideas of what might have happened I am interested to know.
URL: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0661.../data=!3m1!1e3
The aerial view shows a bold right arrow in the lane I was in going over the freeway. The white car going down the ramp is approximately where I was, unintentionally: crossing from the inner right turn lane to the outer one. If this view gives anyone ideas of what might have happened I am interested to know.
05-06-14, 11:33 PM
#47
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There appear to be no recent posts, although I have supplied the requested information including a Google view of the intersection. From what I can tell, what this group would like to do is to diagnose the problem and attribute it to a particular defect of my Lexus, ruling out the possibility that there may be engineering issues that no one in the group could anticipate or diagnose. SWGS13 asks how Lexus could diagnose the problem but neither Lexus nor any of their dealers has made any attempt to reproduce the problem EVER. The dealers may be excused as they do not have the facilities but Lexus does. If they first agreed it was possible this might be a defect, of unknown cause, which shows up in all similar models then they would need not test mine but simply a similar model. Then, ONLY if they could not reproduce the problem on a similar model would they need to try it with my car. Why should they do this? To avoid accidents and future suits. If, however, the deny the problem could be caused by ANY problem attributable to them, and leave it up to the dealer (who does not have facilities to do this test) isn't this similar to what they did with the Toyota issue? Floor mats not a design issue, you say. The government disagrees.
05-07-14, 05:32 AM
#48
File a complaint with NHTSA. If there are enough similar complaints on file, the added weight of yours might do some good. The reality is that an established pattern of complaints with a high enough statistical sigma and significant damage, injury and death are needed for the NHTSA to even open an investigation. A similar situation likely applies at Toyota/Lexus. I won't debate the validity of your complaint. I would say though that talk of class action, lawsuits and government will discourage anybody at Lexus who might listen to you seriously.
05-07-14, 06:51 AM
#49
There appear to be no recent posts, although I have supplied the requested information including a Google view of the intersection. From what I can tell, what this group would like to do is to diagnose the problem and attribute it to a particular defect of my Lexus, ruling out the possibility that there may be engineering issues that no one in the group could anticipate or diagnose. SWGS13 asks how Lexus could diagnose the problem but neither Lexus nor any of their dealers has made any attempt to reproduce the problem EVER. The dealers may be excused as they do not have the facilities but Lexus does. If they first agreed it was possible this might be a defect, of unknown cause, which shows up in all similar models then they would need not test mine but simply a similar model. Then, ONLY if they could not reproduce the problem on a similar model would they need to try it with my car. Why should they do this? To avoid accidents and future suits. If, however, the deny the problem could be caused by ANY problem attributable to them, and leave it up to the dealer (who does not have facilities to do this test) isn't this similar to what they did with the Toyota issue? Floor mats not a design issue, you say. The government disagrees.
Keep in mind that a majority (and it may very well be a vast majority) of the members who post on a regular basis have a very good understanding of automotive mechanics. Some have done as little as brake jobs, and others have pulled entire engines out of cars on their own. These people have a thorough understanding of how cars function, both within and outside of intended limits of operation, and what car can and cannot do.
You have been expressly told by a number of posters here that your description of the skid mechanically could not have included the wheels on the front of your car turning independently of your steering wheel. These components are connected to one another via shafts, gears, and rods, and as a result if, as you contend, your wheels were turned to the left, so would have your steering wheel. It is physically/mechanically impossible to turn one without turning another unless there is a break in the link from the steering wheel to the wheels (which you would obviously know because you wouldn't be able to steer afterwards).
Despite this impossibility, you continue to maintain that the wheels magically turned on their own and disregard that your description sounds spot on for unexpected understeer. You keep saying that you were forced to make a full turn to the right to get back into your lane. That's fine as that seems to be a normal instinctive response of a person who is experiencing understeer. You need to remember that when making a right turn on a regular street you never have to turn the steering wheel to full lock to achieve that turn. Often times that turn can be achieved in as little as 3/4 of a full steering wheel rotation, leaving quiet a bit more before you hit full lock. A person experiencing understeer can and often does react to such an event by turning the steering wheel further into the turn, hoping that if they do this, the car will finally turn. It is my understanding that this is exactly what happened to you.
You'd been given honest and candid feedback from very knowledgeable members here. Take it and realize that your assessment of the "discovered flaw" is likely that of a car operating outside of its ability to maintain grip at the front. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a stamp of approval, I don't think you'll find it here because your description (at least of your issue with the turn) is not physically possible.
05-07-14, 04:24 PM
#50
Get a lawyer and file suit against Lexus. Forget the government - total waste of time and effort. If you're right about the design deficiency, you'll end up well-compensated for your efforts (your lawyer even more so!). If you're wrong, sure you'll waste a bunch of time and money, but you'll have learned a very valuable lesson which you can then share with all of us. So, have at it and best of luck to you.
05-07-14, 04:41 PM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
Serenty, you came to this board with a concern that you voiced in your first post. In that post you asked for feedback from the board's members. Yet, you have disregarded a majority of responses posted here, and instead it seems that you are simply looking for validation of a hypothesis that you are dead set on.
Aside from that, nothing any of us can do for him.
05-07-14, 07:15 PM
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Serenty, you came to this board with a concern that you voiced in your first post. In that post you asked for feedback from the board's members. Yet, you have disregarded a majority of responses posted here, and instead it seems that you are simply looking for validation of a hypothesis that you are dead set on.
Keep in mind that a majority (and it may very well be a vast majority) of the members who post on a regular basis have a very good understanding of automotive mechanics. Some have done as little as brake jobs, and others have pulled entire engines out of cars on their own. These people have a thorough understanding of how cars function, both within and outside of intended limits of operation, and what car can and cannot do.
You have been expressly told by a number of posters here that your description of the skid mechanically could not have included the wheels on the front of your car turning independently of your steering wheel. These components are connected to one another via shafts, gears, and rods, and as a result if, as you contend, your wheels were turned to the left, so would have your steering wheel. It is physically/mechanically impossible to turn one without turning another unless there is a break in the link from the steering wheel to the wheels (which you would obviously know because you wouldn't be able to steer afterwards).
Despite this impossibility, you continue to maintain that the wheels magically turned on their own and disregard that your description sounds spot on for unexpected understeer. You keep saying that you were forced to make a full turn to the right to get back into your lane. That's fine as that seems to be a normal instinctive response of a person who is experiencing understeer. You need to remember that when making a right turn on a regular street you never have to turn the steering wheel to full lock to achieve that turn. Often times that turn can be achieved in as little as 3/4 of a full steering wheel rotation, leaving quiet a bit more before you hit full lock. A person experiencing understeer can and often does react to such an event by turning the steering wheel further into the turn, hoping that if they do this, the car will finally turn. It is my understanding that this is exactly what happened to you.
You'd been given honest and candid feedback from very knowledgeable members here. Take it and realize that your assessment of the "discovered flaw" is likely that of a car operating outside of its ability to maintain grip at the front. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a stamp of approval, I don't think you'll find it here because your description (at least of your issue with the turn) is not physically possible.
Keep in mind that a majority (and it may very well be a vast majority) of the members who post on a regular basis have a very good understanding of automotive mechanics. Some have done as little as brake jobs, and others have pulled entire engines out of cars on their own. These people have a thorough understanding of how cars function, both within and outside of intended limits of operation, and what car can and cannot do.
You have been expressly told by a number of posters here that your description of the skid mechanically could not have included the wheels on the front of your car turning independently of your steering wheel. These components are connected to one another via shafts, gears, and rods, and as a result if, as you contend, your wheels were turned to the left, so would have your steering wheel. It is physically/mechanically impossible to turn one without turning another unless there is a break in the link from the steering wheel to the wheels (which you would obviously know because you wouldn't be able to steer afterwards).
Despite this impossibility, you continue to maintain that the wheels magically turned on their own and disregard that your description sounds spot on for unexpected understeer. You keep saying that you were forced to make a full turn to the right to get back into your lane. That's fine as that seems to be a normal instinctive response of a person who is experiencing understeer. You need to remember that when making a right turn on a regular street you never have to turn the steering wheel to full lock to achieve that turn. Often times that turn can be achieved in as little as 3/4 of a full steering wheel rotation, leaving quiet a bit more before you hit full lock. A person experiencing understeer can and often does react to such an event by turning the steering wheel further into the turn, hoping that if they do this, the car will finally turn. It is my understanding that this is exactly what happened to you.
You'd been given honest and candid feedback from very knowledgeable members here. Take it and realize that your assessment of the "discovered flaw" is likely that of a car operating outside of its ability to maintain grip at the front. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a stamp of approval, I don't think you'll find it here because your description (at least of your issue with the turn) is not physically possible.
05-08-14, 06:38 AM
#53
Exactly...and in the many years I've spent posting on and moderating auto forums I've seen this time and time again. The OP's mind is made up...my advice to him is to sell the car. I've got $30,000 cash for him if he wants to sell it...and I'm not kidding...if he wants to sell me the car for $30k I will be on a plane with a cashiers check in hand.
Aside from that, nothing any of us can do for him.
Aside from that, nothing any of us can do for him.
05-12-14, 10:29 AM
#54
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The latest responses are interesting and, perhaps, even humorous. Members of this forum are offering to buy my car for $24,000 less than its Blue Book Value. What a deal! Now if you'll sell me 100 shares of Apple for $300 a share as part of the package I might consider that. No?
OK, then, so what I hear from Lexgolf is I have a car "operating outside of it's ability to maintain grip at the front." I can understand the skepticism as Lexgolf has never seen me drive over my many years at the wheel and doesn't know that I have had many examples of cars with both understeer and oversteer. I"ve even used oversteer to manage a hairpin turn on an exit ramp in a rented Ford Taurus. And I've experienced understeer too. Now for understeer to carry you into the next lane, for those who have bothered to look at the Google aerial view I provided, the entire lane would have to have been slick otherwise, before I reached the lane divider markings the tires would have begun to skid and the sound from that is obvious. Let me make it clear. The speed was low - around 10 mph - there was no skidding sound AND even after the car had crossed the lane markings it was moving freely to the right. In order to get the car back into the right lane I had to turn the steering wheel to the right more than one full turn, and that just to go slightly to the right to be back in the lane I should have been in.
Now here's what is clear to me. I can describe this event as clearly as possible and the majority, even the vast majority, of club members will not believe my description and ONLY because they do not have an engineering explanation for it. It's quite likely that these same members would not have considered the "unintended acceleration" events in the Toyota to be believable since there was no "engineering explanation" and when the floor mat turned out to be the reason their reaction would be "see, I told you there was nothing wrong with the car". But, in the real world, it doesn't work that way. Minor issues, like what temperature you let the space shuttle take off at, can cause major issues like freezing of the O-Rings and 6 dead astronauts. You know, the managers of the engineers that worried about this didn't think there was a problem, and they were engineers too. It's easy to dismiss someone's concerns when you really would rather not accept that what they are telling you is even possible. That's been true since Copernicus.
OK, then, so what I hear from Lexgolf is I have a car "operating outside of it's ability to maintain grip at the front." I can understand the skepticism as Lexgolf has never seen me drive over my many years at the wheel and doesn't know that I have had many examples of cars with both understeer and oversteer. I"ve even used oversteer to manage a hairpin turn on an exit ramp in a rented Ford Taurus. And I've experienced understeer too. Now for understeer to carry you into the next lane, for those who have bothered to look at the Google aerial view I provided, the entire lane would have to have been slick otherwise, before I reached the lane divider markings the tires would have begun to skid and the sound from that is obvious. Let me make it clear. The speed was low - around 10 mph - there was no skidding sound AND even after the car had crossed the lane markings it was moving freely to the right. In order to get the car back into the right lane I had to turn the steering wheel to the right more than one full turn, and that just to go slightly to the right to be back in the lane I should have been in.
Now here's what is clear to me. I can describe this event as clearly as possible and the majority, even the vast majority, of club members will not believe my description and ONLY because they do not have an engineering explanation for it. It's quite likely that these same members would not have considered the "unintended acceleration" events in the Toyota to be believable since there was no "engineering explanation" and when the floor mat turned out to be the reason their reaction would be "see, I told you there was nothing wrong with the car". But, in the real world, it doesn't work that way. Minor issues, like what temperature you let the space shuttle take off at, can cause major issues like freezing of the O-Rings and 6 dead astronauts. You know, the managers of the engineers that worried about this didn't think there was a problem, and they were engineers too. It's easy to dismiss someone's concerns when you really would rather not accept that what they are telling you is even possible. That's been true since Copernicus.
05-13-14, 01:55 PM
#55
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The latest responses are interesting and, perhaps, even humorous. Members of this forum are offering to buy my car for $24,000 less than its Blue Book Value. What a deal! Now if you'll sell me 100 shares of Apple for $300 a share as part of the package I might consider that. No?
OK, then, so what I hear from Lexgolf is I have a car "operating outside of it's ability to maintain grip at the front." I can understand the skepticism as Lexgolf has never seen me drive over my many years at the wheel and doesn't know that I have had many examples of cars with both understeer and oversteer. I"ve even used oversteer to manage a hairpin turn on an exit ramp in a rented Ford Taurus. And I've experienced understeer too. Now for understeer to carry you into the next lane, for those who have bothered to look at the Google aerial view I provided, the entire lane would have to have been slick otherwise, before I reached the lane divider markings the tires would have begun to skid and the sound from that is obvious. Let me make it clear. The speed was low - around 10 mph - there was no skidding sound AND even after the car had crossed the lane markings it was moving freely to the right. In order to get the car back into the right lane I had to turn the steering wheel to the right more than one full turn, and that just to go slightly to the right to be back in the lane I should have been in.
Now here's what is clear to me. I can describe this event as clearly as possible and the majority, even the vast majority, of club members will not believe my description and ONLY because they do not have an engineering explanation for it. It's quite likely that these same members would not have considered the "unintended acceleration" events in the Toyota to be believable since there was no "engineering explanation" and when the floor mat turned out to be the reason their reaction would be "see, I told you there was nothing wrong with the car". But, in the real world, it doesn't work that way. Minor issues, like what temperature you let the space shuttle take off at, can cause major issues like freezing of the O-Rings and 6 dead astronauts. You know, the managers of the engineers that worried about this didn't think there was a problem, and they were engineers too. It's easy to dismiss someone's concerns when you really would rather not accept that what they are telling you is even possible. That's been true since Copernicus.
OK, then, so what I hear from Lexgolf is I have a car "operating outside of it's ability to maintain grip at the front." I can understand the skepticism as Lexgolf has never seen me drive over my many years at the wheel and doesn't know that I have had many examples of cars with both understeer and oversteer. I"ve even used oversteer to manage a hairpin turn on an exit ramp in a rented Ford Taurus. And I've experienced understeer too. Now for understeer to carry you into the next lane, for those who have bothered to look at the Google aerial view I provided, the entire lane would have to have been slick otherwise, before I reached the lane divider markings the tires would have begun to skid and the sound from that is obvious. Let me make it clear. The speed was low - around 10 mph - there was no skidding sound AND even after the car had crossed the lane markings it was moving freely to the right. In order to get the car back into the right lane I had to turn the steering wheel to the right more than one full turn, and that just to go slightly to the right to be back in the lane I should have been in.
Now here's what is clear to me. I can describe this event as clearly as possible and the majority, even the vast majority, of club members will not believe my description and ONLY because they do not have an engineering explanation for it. It's quite likely that these same members would not have considered the "unintended acceleration" events in the Toyota to be believable since there was no "engineering explanation" and when the floor mat turned out to be the reason their reaction would be "see, I told you there was nothing wrong with the car". But, in the real world, it doesn't work that way. Minor issues, like what temperature you let the space shuttle take off at, can cause major issues like freezing of the O-Rings and 6 dead astronauts. You know, the managers of the engineers that worried about this didn't think there was a problem, and they were engineers too. It's easy to dismiss someone's concerns when you really would rather not accept that what they are telling you is even possible. That's been true since Copernicus.
05-13-14, 02:35 PM
#56
I truly appreciate all of those who have replied and tried to think out the issues that have occurred with my Lexus. It's much more than Lexus has done, and that's my problem. Let's suppose, for a moment, that I am mistaken and it was the rear end slippage that caused the skid. I can't rule that out given how suddenly the skid control reacted and the effort I had to exert to get the car back into my lane. But, whatever the cause, this is clearly very dangerous as I was not going very fast. Lexus should care enough about people that could be hurt to test this. As for the downhill roll: This occurs on a a 15-20% grade, or more. There are many of these in San Francisco. Now imagine someone, facing downhill just before an intersection who puts their car in reverse and then, as most people do when parallel parking, looks over his right shoulder to back into the space. The car suddenly rolls into the intersection where he is hit by a truck and killed. Is this entirely his fault or does Lexus take some blame for this, especially on a car in this price range? I take note that some people found the post a little shrill and can't deny the emotional reaction to these issues which comes from the frustration of trying to get them resolved. Shouldn't Lexus WANT to resolve them rather than facing another round of fines from the DOJ?
Last edited by Pamperme; 05-13-14 at 02:41 PM.
05-13-14, 02:56 PM
#57
So what WOULD have happened had you taken Lexus at its word? Would the CEL have magically reappeared? If so, what would you predict Lexus's response would be? Would Lexus have learned more from the situation if you had acquiesced or as it turned out? Your opinion, please.
05-13-14, 04:08 PM
#58
OK, I swore to myself that I wouldn't reply any more to this thread, but I can't help myself.
The front wheels turned sharply to the left without you turning the steering wheel sharply to the left? Mechanically and physically impossible since apparently the steering has operated properly since the incident.
Normal idle speed is about 750 rpm. Even my V12 idles at no more than 780 rpm. What you have to do is apply the accelerator to increase the rpm's to overcome the force of gravity. I recommend you watch the new series Cosmos on the Nat Geo channel.
The fact that thousands of owners here not only haven't experienced this, let alone ever heard about it, leads you to believe that the problem is widespread?
I'm curious, I can't see my front wheels when I'm driving. Unless I turn the steering wheel sharply to the left, I don't know that the wheels are turned in that direction. Since you didn't turn your steering wheel to the left, how do you know the wheels were turned in that direction?
Here is where you lost all credibility with me (and I'll dismiss the shot you took). You mean to tell me that on a Sunday morning at 7 AM there is not a single parking lot in a shopping center, mall, corporate office center, or public commuter lot that is not full of cars?! Further, as a GE "Black Belt" clearly you know that spreading soapy water on the pavement would not be scientifically correct unless the road you were on was also treated with soap at the time of your incident.
As for your hiring a class action lawyer, please tell us how many injured plaintiffs do you currently have in your class.
Go for it, look at how many countless lives you will save. It's only a misdemeanor. If they put you in prison we'll work on the outside for your early release! 
Did you ever see the TV series My Mother the Car?
Are you sure?
In my opinion engineering has nothing do to with it. In aviation we call it pilot error. 
That's it, I'm done with this thread. If I'm out of line another mod can delete this post.
The road was just slightly slick so the front of the car slid a couple of inches and instantly the skid control turned the front wheels sharply to the left causing me to careen into the lane to my left. Then I found that facing downward on a steep hill the car would roll forward even when put into reverse. And fast too. This makes parking on a hill in San Francisco potentially quite dangerous. Freeman Lexus WAS able to reproduce this error but had no way to fix it. This is a design flaw.
Normal idle speed is about 750 rpm. Even my V12 idles at no more than 780 rpm. What you have to do is apply the accelerator to increase the rpm's to overcome the force of gravity. I recommend you watch the new series Cosmos on the Nat Geo channel.
Second, I doubt the issue is related to my vehicle alone or else computerized results would probably have caught the error. Third, I can only say with complete certainty the I did not and could not possibly turn the wheels of my car to the far left, while making a right turn, in a fraction of a second.
I'm curious, I can't see my front wheels when I'm driving. Unless I turn the steering wheel sharply to the left, I don't know that the wheels are turned in that direction. Since you didn't turn your steering wheel to the left, how do you know the wheels were turned in that direction?
Well, Nospizone, perhaps you have access to empty parking lots given that you also have a Ferrari. Here in Marin County, our parking lots tend to be full during the day and, if I were to go to an empty parking lot in the middle of the night, set up flood lights to do a video, splash soapy water on the ground to reproduce a skid, and try to have my wife record all of this, it is quite likely that the police would come and take us away in handcuffs. . A class action lawyer might very well want to do this kind of test and be willing to pay for it. Now you're in Massachusetts, but if you know someplace in Marin, Sonoma, Soloano, Alameda, Contra Costa, San Francisco, or San Mateo Counties which would agree to allow the test you suggest, please tell me. Maybe they are easier to find where you live. I just don't know of any.
As for your hiring a class action lawyer, please tell us how many injured plaintiffs do you currently have in your class.
Now one comment that is a bit annoying is "I think we have established that your car did not self steer into the slide". OK, so I am making a right turn. I have turned the wheels to the right and in a tiny fraction of a second find the wheels are turned to the far left. It took me two to three seconds to get back into my lane by steering the car back to the right. There is NO WAY I could have turned the wheel to the left this fast by myself. So what caused it? A ghost?
That's it, I'm done with this thread. If I'm out of line another mod can delete this post.
05-13-14, 05:07 PM
#59
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Now you're in Massachusetts, but if you know someplace in Marin, Sonoma, Soloano, Alameda, Contra Costa, San Francisco, or San Mateo Counties which would agree to allow the test you suggest, please tell me. Maybe they are easier to find where you live. I just don't know of any.
Believe both Infineon and Laguna Seca are in your general area
http://www.racesonoma.com/
http://www.mazdaraceway.com/
Also search for Thunderhilll (near Sacramento), Sears Point (Sonoma County). If you travel Buttonwillow part way to LA, Willow Springs near LA, Fontana further south.. There may be other smaller ones I'm not aware of.
Can call the track directly, they usually will let you use it for a small rental fee on days they are open. You might also look up the calendar to see what driving schools have the track rented and reach out to them to see if they'll be using the skidpad and you can get some time with them.
Good luck.
Last edited by DaveGS4; 05-13-14 at 05:11 PM.
05-13-14, 05:26 PM
#60
So what WOULD have happened had you taken Lexus at its word? Would the CEL have magically reappeared? If so, what would you predict Lexus's response would be? Would Lexus have learned more from the situation if you had acquiesced or as it turned out? Your opinion, please.