First Impression: 2013 Lexus LS
08-03-12, 04:42 PM
#17
Yeah. I mean if it's going to look aggressive, it should have the power to back it up right? In this particular segment, and money is no object, the 7 series M SPORT or the S AMG packages seem to be a lot more geared to what they should be...flagship luxury sport sedans. If it looks the part, it should feel the part. True power isn't everything, but whats another 15-20 hp more than the previous? That would have been a lot more substantial than just 6 hp. 
08-03-12, 04:52 PM
#18
Yeah. I mean if it's going to look aggressive, it should have the power to back it up right? In this particular segment, and money is no object, the 7 series M SPORT or the S AMG packages seem to be a lot more geared to what they should be...flagship luxury sport sedans. If it looks the part, it should feel the part. True power isn't everything, but whats another 15-20 hp more than the previous? That would have been a lot more substantial than just 6 hp.
regarding power, from an absolute point of view, i honestly think 380hp is ok. the new 386 is silly nonetheless, "why bother" was what came to my mind. but from a competitive point of view, given what the tt v8 750 and s550 are pushing today, together with some other examples, lexus is definitely losing ground from a comparison point of view
to be fair, i haven't driven the 13 ls460 obviously. but given the same chassis, i think 380hp is still a pretty decent match. now if we move to the gs scene, with the 306hp v6 in that fantastic chassis? that's a huge waste
luxury sedan doesn't mean hp is not in the picture. as i mention, i am not saying 380hp is not enough at all. in fact, back in 06, damn that's a lot of good hp.
but in today's standard, with both the 750il and s550 both pushing around 450hp (and yes, noticeably faster), lexus is clearly in the disadvantage here. for someone with 80-100k shopping for luxury flagship, looking at the 3 cars, and one with 70hp less, it can easily be seen as a negative.
i think that's what most people are trying to say
08-03-12, 05:05 PM
#19
actually i was focusing on the generation part. it's painful to see how so many people try to argue it's a new generation when it's the same car with a lot of upgrades.
regarding power, from an absolute point of view, i honestly think 380hp is ok. the new 386 is silly nonetheless, "why bother" was what came to my mind. but from a competitive point of view, given what the tt v8 750 and s550 are pushing today, together with some other examples, lexus is definitely losing ground from a comparison point of view
to be fair, i haven't driven the 13 ls460 obviously. but given the same chassis, i think 380hp is still a pretty decent match. now if we move to the gs scene, with the 306hp v6 in that fantastic chassis? that's a huge waste
with your analogy, lexus should just downsize it to a 430 with 300hp because i am sure that will save more guess, just as smooth, and plenty for daily driving.
luxury sedan doesn't mean hp is not in the picture. as i mention, i am not saying 380hp is not enough at all. in fact, back in 06, damn that's a lot of good hp.
but in today's standard, with both the 750il and s550 both pushing around 450hp (and yes, noticeably faster), lexus is clearly in the disadvantage here. for someone with 80-100k shopping for luxury flagship, looking at the 3 cars, and one with 70hp less, it can easily be seen as a negative.
i think that's what most people are trying to say
regarding power, from an absolute point of view, i honestly think 380hp is ok. the new 386 is silly nonetheless, "why bother" was what came to my mind. but from a competitive point of view, given what the tt v8 750 and s550 are pushing today, together with some other examples, lexus is definitely losing ground from a comparison point of view
to be fair, i haven't driven the 13 ls460 obviously. but given the same chassis, i think 380hp is still a pretty decent match. now if we move to the gs scene, with the 306hp v6 in that fantastic chassis? that's a huge waste
with your analogy, lexus should just downsize it to a 430 with 300hp because i am sure that will save more guess, just as smooth, and plenty for daily driving.
luxury sedan doesn't mean hp is not in the picture. as i mention, i am not saying 380hp is not enough at all. in fact, back in 06, damn that's a lot of good hp.
but in today's standard, with both the 750il and s550 both pushing around 450hp (and yes, noticeably faster), lexus is clearly in the disadvantage here. for someone with 80-100k shopping for luxury flagship, looking at the 3 cars, and one with 70hp less, it can easily be seen as a negative.
i think that's what most people are trying to say
08-03-12, 06:21 PM
#20
I think your dead on about both points, but I got a gs400 that really feels sporty and a 460l that really feels luxury. Some of these guys need to do what you did and buy a Benz or another German ride to get that best of both worlds, because that's not Lexus as fars as I'm concern. Was that your reason for leaving? I can tell you are a real car guy and it seems like you really know your cars.
there are obviously buyers in every brand and they have their own reasons to justify their purchases. i completely respect that. for example if one says he can really care less about power but wants the quietest ride, i will recommend nothing but lexus.
however though, at the same time, i think it would also make sense to have their product somewhat in a competitive range in multiple categories, and leave the final touches such as features, ease of use, gadgets, etc... to the owners.
i got my ls460l in 2007 but got rid of the car not because lack of power, but lack of driving feedback. i got my 2007 s550 (mostly coz' it's a steal) and still enjoying driving it after a year because it has a better blend of comfort vs power imho, while losing some of the comfort features in my ls460l. that would be my level of balance. both cars have ~380hp
but what i will say though is, if today i am shopping a new flagship, when the 750il and s550 both offer more powerful engines (possibly equal smoother rides coz' rpm stays lower), and subjectively the ls doesn't offer a lot more gadgets, technologies, and comfort (750il and s550 ride seriously good these days compared to in the past), it does make a difference.
i will bring up another point, it's clear that lexus is trying to get into the sporty side of things, want to introduce more driving dynamics. it's very clear in their 4gs design, and i believe they also try to do the same with this new ls. if that's the direction lexus is heading, then how should they balance their power-train? it's a question for them
in the end, as i mentioned before, i am ok with the 380hp in the 2013 ls460 for another 2 years. it's a stretch, but it's probably ok. but they will be playing catch up
Last edited by rominl; 08-03-12 at 06:25 PM.
08-03-12, 06:58 PM
#21
Well Mr.Rominl I will second that and I appreciate your feedback and your honesty. I love cars and I like a little something about every highend brand but for the money at the end of day if you decide to keep one car for a period of time it's Lexus all day for me. Oh yeah I would love to see pics of that Benz.
08-03-12, 08:18 PM
#22
2012ls
I have owned three Lexus vehicles. All purchased new. A Sport Coupe and a GS and presently a new LS. I would not even consider a german car. They do not have the reliability, and the other car forums will bear that out. Also, on average it cost more to maintain them. Had BMW many years ago and it had serious electrical problems. Thirty years later and I think it still has its issues. I looked at a new MB in 2010. On start up there were electrical problems,so I walked away fast. You just do not find too many disappointed Lexus owners. Besides, what is the big issue about HP for a Luxury car. It drives well, has plenty of speed and gets decent mileage while doing all of this. But for those that are not happy, then sell your Lexus and go get a BMW or Mercedes. Don't sit here on this forum and complain!
08-03-12, 08:27 PM
#24
I have owned three Lexus vehicles. All purchased new. A Sport Coupe and a GS and presently a new LS. I would not even consider a german car. They do not have the reliability, and the other car forums will bear that out. Also, on average it cost more to maintain them. Had BMW many years ago and it had serious electrical problems. Thirty years later and I think it still has its issues. I looked at a new MB in 2010. On start up there were electrical problems,so I walked away fast. You just do not find too many disappointed Lexus owners. Besides, what is the big issue about HP for a Luxury car. It drives well, has plenty of speed and gets decent mileage while doing all of this. But for those that are not happy, then sell your Lexus and go get a BMW or Mercedes. Don't sit here on this forum and complain!
08-03-12, 09:54 PM
#25
I have owned three Lexus vehicles. All purchased new. A Sport Coupe and a GS and presently a new LS. I would not even consider a german car. They do not have the reliability, and the other car forums will bear that out. Also, on average it cost more to maintain them. Had BMW many years ago and it had serious electrical problems. Thirty years later and I think it still has its issues. I looked at a new MB in 2010. On start up there were electrical problems,so I walked away fast. You just do not find too many disappointed Lexus owners. Besides, what is the big issue about HP for a Luxury car. It drives well, has plenty of speed and gets decent mileage while doing all of this. But for those that are not happy, then sell your Lexus and go get a BMW or Mercedes. Don't sit here on this forum and complain!
08-03-12, 10:31 PM
#26
I have owned three Lexus vehicles. All purchased new. A Sport Coupe and a GS and presently a new LS. I would not even consider a german car. They do not have the reliability, and the other car forums will bear that out. Also, on average it cost more to maintain them. Had BMW many years ago and it had serious electrical problems. Thirty years later and I think it still has its issues. I looked at a new MB in 2010. On start up there were electrical problems,so I walked away fast. You just do not find too many disappointed Lexus owners. Besides, what is the big issue about HP for a Luxury car. It drives well, has plenty of speed and gets decent mileage while doing all of this. But for those that are not happy, then sell your Lexus and go get a BMW or Mercedes. Don't sit here on this forum and complain!
i have owned 5 lexus, gs400, is300, sc430, ls460l, gs350, to say i don't like lexus is bs. but that doesn't make me a lexus fanboy and think it's lexus or nothing. look up all my cars and see how i treasure the cars and brand.
i have also owned bmw and mb. to be honest both my 2008 m3 and 2007 s550 have given me LESS problems than my 2008 gs350, noticeably less. and don't get me started on maintenance, lexus WAS cheap on maintenance but if you follow the schedule it's not really the case anymore, it's just about as expensive as mb. with bmw you even get first 4 years free. if you want to argue you pay for maintenance in your purchase price, at the time i got my m3, the price was right where isf was.
i will agree with SBlexus though, if today i have to keep a car for 7-8 years, i probably would prefer to stick with lexus, no doubt i still give long term reliability to lexus there. but given i trade cars every few years, it's not really a big factor. so it has a lot to do with what kind of majority buyers these brands are targeting at. german quality used to be horrifying, but they have stepped up in recent years.
i hear positives and negatives everywhere on all brands, here and bmw/mb forums. key is to stay open-minded about things and learn how to accept the good and bad, as well as pointing out the strengths and weaknesses. if anything, lexus do pay attention to all the constructive comments here
Last edited by rominl; 08-03-12 at 10:38 PM.
08-04-12, 06:54 AM
#27
that's pretty silly to only hear positives on a brand and disregard the constructive criticism, isn't it?
i have owned 5 lexus, gs400, is300, sc430, ls460l, gs350, to say i don't like lexus is bs. but that doesn't make me a lexus fanboy and think it's lexus or nothing. look up all my cars and see how i treasure the cars and brand.
i have also owned bmw and mb. to be honest both my 2008 m3 and 2007 s550 have given me LESS problems than my 2008 gs350, noticeably less. and don't get me started on maintenance, lexus WAS cheap on maintenance but if you follow the schedule it's not really the case anymore, it's just about as expensive as mb. with bmw you even get first 4 years free. if you want to argue you pay for maintenance in your purchase price, at the time i got my m3, the price was right where isf was.
i will agree with SBlexus though, if today i have to keep a car for 7-8 years, i probably would prefer to stick with lexus, no doubt i still give long term reliability to lexus there. but given i trade cars every few years, it's not really a big factor. so it has a lot to do with what kind of majority buyers these brands are targeting at. german quality used to be horrifying, but they have stepped up in recent years.
i hear positives and negatives everywhere on all brands, here and bmw/mb forums. key is to stay open-minded about things and learn how to accept the good and bad, as well as pointing out the strengths and weaknesses. if anything, lexus do pay attention to all the constructive comments here
i have owned 5 lexus, gs400, is300, sc430, ls460l, gs350, to say i don't like lexus is bs. but that doesn't make me a lexus fanboy and think it's lexus or nothing. look up all my cars and see how i treasure the cars and brand.
i have also owned bmw and mb. to be honest both my 2008 m3 and 2007 s550 have given me LESS problems than my 2008 gs350, noticeably less. and don't get me started on maintenance, lexus WAS cheap on maintenance but if you follow the schedule it's not really the case anymore, it's just about as expensive as mb. with bmw you even get first 4 years free. if you want to argue you pay for maintenance in your purchase price, at the time i got my m3, the price was right where isf was.
i will agree with SBlexus though, if today i have to keep a car for 7-8 years, i probably would prefer to stick with lexus, no doubt i still give long term reliability to lexus there. but given i trade cars every few years, it's not really a big factor. so it has a lot to do with what kind of majority buyers these brands are targeting at. german quality used to be horrifying, but they have stepped up in recent years.
i hear positives and negatives everywhere on all brands, here and bmw/mb forums. key is to stay open-minded about things and learn how to accept the good and bad, as well as pointing out the strengths and weaknesses. if anything, lexus do pay attention to all the constructive comments here
08-04-12, 07:46 AM
#28
Personally, I love the new design on the LS. It looks more in place with the spindle grill, headlights, etc... than it does on the new GS. As for power, I am disappointed in not only the LS but the new GS as well. If this is the new trend we are going to see from Lexus, then expect the new IS to have a 4 to 6 HP bump, and the IS-F to have 10 to 12 HP increase. I agree, this is pathetic for Lexus as a "top of the line" brand for Toyota to be producing underpowered cars....considering their ties with some of the greatest sports cars ever made (Supra & LFA). However, I have this crazy notion that they are really going to push for the "F" versions of their lineup hard. Similar to AMG, Lexus is probably testing different variations on the 5.0 liter V8 in the IS-F to accommodate the IS-F, GS-F, and LS-F. If not, Lexus will be dead to me....not because of power alone....but because of the lack of concern for the demanding market.
08-04-12, 07:48 AM
#29
CEO, and Rominl once u guys are dead on about up keep on a car and you can really tell the true car guys on these type of site. I still want to see those Benz pics. When it comes down to freedom of speech there is no right or wrong comments.
08-04-12, 08:37 AM
#30
Lexus Connoisseur
Thread Starter
actually i was focusing on the generation part. it's painful to see how so many people try to argue it's a new generation when it's the same car with a lot of upgrades.
regarding power, from an absolute point of view, i honestly think 380hp is ok. the new 386 is silly nonetheless, "why bother" was what came to my mind. but from a competitive point of view, given what the tt v8 750 and s550 are pushing today, together with some other examples, lexus is definitely losing ground from a comparison point of view
to be fair, i haven't driven the 13 ls460 obviously. but given the same chassis, i think 380hp is still a pretty decent match. now if we move to the gs scene, with the 306hp v6 in that fantastic chassis? that's a huge waste
regarding power, from an absolute point of view, i honestly think 380hp is ok. the new 386 is silly nonetheless, "why bother" was what came to my mind. but from a competitive point of view, given what the tt v8 750 and s550 are pushing today, together with some other examples, lexus is definitely losing ground from a comparison point of view
to be fair, i haven't driven the 13 ls460 obviously. but given the same chassis, i think 380hp is still a pretty decent match. now if we move to the gs scene, with the 306hp v6 in that fantastic chassis? that's a huge waste
On the power standpoint, I think if Lexus will stretch the lifecycles of each car past their typical 5 year with 1 refresh, the powertrain should definitely gain some type of upgrade. 6+ years is a long time to stretch a platform. LS has always been on a 5 year plan with a mid year refresh and this is the first time they're going beyond that. At least if they're going to do such a drastic change inside and out, the powertrain should be taken into consideration especially with a specific model with sport in mind:
Gen 1 - UCF10 1990-1994 (1993 Refresh) 4.0L 250hp
Gen 2 - UCF20 1995-2000 (1998 Refresh) 4.0L 260hp
Gen 3 - UCF30 2001-2006 (2004 Refresh) 4.3L 290hp
Gen 4 - USV40 2007-current (2010 Refresh; 2013 Refresh). 4.6L 380hp; 4.6L 386hp
Granted that the greatest jump occured between generations 3rd to 4th, I think at least the F SPORT should have gotten a little more power than 6, especially when the current generation is being stretched out longer.
with your analogy, lexus should just downsize it to a 430 with 300hp because i am sure that will save more guess, just as smooth, and plenty for daily driving.
luxury sedan doesn't mean hp is not in the picture. as i mention, i am not saying 380hp is not enough at all. in fact, back in 06, damn that's a lot of good hp.
but in today's standard, with both the 750il and s550 both pushing around 450hp (and yes, noticeably faster), lexus is clearly in the disadvantage here. for someone with 80-100k shopping for luxury flagship, looking at the 3 cars, and one with 70hp less, it can easily be seen as a negative.
i think that's what most people are trying to say
luxury sedan doesn't mean hp is not in the picture. as i mention, i am not saying 380hp is not enough at all. in fact, back in 06, damn that's a lot of good hp.
but in today's standard, with both the 750il and s550 both pushing around 450hp (and yes, noticeably faster), lexus is clearly in the disadvantage here. for someone with 80-100k shopping for luxury flagship, looking at the 3 cars, and one with 70hp less, it can easily be seen as a negative.
i think that's what most people are trying to say
Last edited by flipside909; 08-04-12 at 08:53 AM.