Instructions For The "JMcRaney Wind Noise Fix"
11-15-14, 08:51 AM
#137
Lexus Test Driver
11-15-14, 10:12 AM
#138
Lexus Fanatic
11-16-14, 12:16 PM
#139
Pole Position
I've now read this thread to the end. Very creative repair. One I'm not sure I'm comfortable trying, but probably would certainly help. When I test drove my car, it was raining and windy. One of the first things I noticed when we hit the expressway for a test, was an intermittent wind noise coming from the corner driver window. But it went away as fast as it appeared. Of course the sales person attributed it to the heavy winds at the time and it very well could have been. I don't hear the wind sound all that often, but it does flair up on occasion. As for a better and quieter sound, I don't know it this fix would resolve anything. Of course I won't know until I try. I'm just not that comfortable with the attempt. But if I do the get the courage to try, I'll let you know. Thanks for a great post.
02-24-15, 10:59 PM
#140
Driver School Candidate
Jeff,
thank you for your excellent DIY on this noise issue fix. Regarding the template you posted, is it "life size"? I can just print it out and trace it? It looks a little small comparing to other pictures. I have not cracked mine open to be sure though. Also, the top of that template is "rounded" out instead of pointed like the metal ones you installed in other pictures. Can you clarify? Thanks.
thank you for your excellent DIY on this noise issue fix. Regarding the template you posted, is it "life size"? I can just print it out and trace it? It looks a little small comparing to other pictures. I have not cracked mine open to be sure though. Also, the top of that template is "rounded" out instead of pointed like the metal ones you installed in other pictures. Can you clarify? Thanks.
I just want a service manual, because my low beam headlights are out, and the dealer wants $450 to replace it. It appears lexus designed this car as if headlights never need replaced, so replacing the headlight seems to involve removing wheels, fenders, and basically tearing the car down as if it's rear-ended a semi. An access panel for changing headlights? That would be insane. Nobody every replaces headlights on a quality car, right? Quality cars don't have headlights that fail, right?
02-25-15, 06:52 AM
#141
Lexus Fanatic
You're obviously smart. Can you tell me how to find a service manual for my 2007 lexus LS460? I want a service manual, not the owners manual and can't find a way to post questions on this forum. I even tried the contact us, or how-to and it goes to a broken page.
I just want a service manual, because my low beam headlights are out, and the dealer wants $450 to replace it. It appears lexus designed this car as if headlights never need replaced, so replacing the headlight seems to involve removing wheels, fenders, and basically tearing the car down as if it's rear-ended a semi. An access panel for changing headlights? That would be insane. Nobody every replaces headlights on a quality car, right? Quality cars don't have headlights that fail, right?
I just want a service manual, because my low beam headlights are out, and the dealer wants $450 to replace it. It appears lexus designed this car as if headlights never need replaced, so replacing the headlight seems to involve removing wheels, fenders, and basically tearing the car down as if it's rear-ended a semi. An access panel for changing headlights? That would be insane. Nobody every replaces headlights on a quality car, right? Quality cars don't have headlights that fail, right?
https://www.alldatadiy.com/
I've been subscribed for over a year and it is an amazing resource. Has all the TSB's, part costs, labor times, etc. Works out to about 26.95 for the first year, but then renewals are cheap. You have ten days to try it out and if you don't like it, you get a refund. I think you can find online discount coupons as well.
02-25-15, 07:45 PM
#142
I did it the first week I had the car, and used the finned parts from Sewell Lexus. I used a ton of clear silicone sealer, essentially gluing them on. Then I used a toothpick to scrape the excess silicone that squeezed out after it had cured for 2 days. There is a very noticeable difference in wind noise level, it is essentially silent in all but the most aggressive crosswinds, and even then it is only a small whisper at the peak gust speeds. Thanks to JMcRaney for solving this, it adds to the awesomeness of the LS to do this mod.
02-27-15, 07:24 AM
#143
Moderator
Thread Starter
Tec80,
Thank you for letting us know about your successful repair of your car's "wind noise" problem. Reports like yours are very powerful in getting the word out to the many owners who have this problem and are unaware that a solution is available.
The cause of the "wind noise" that affects many LS460s and LS600s is the sealing behind the trim at the corners of the windows in the front doors and was identified in this forum more than 7 years ago. Lexus was informed about this defect but, to the best of my knowledge, has never provided any relief to owners who have this problem.
The only thing required to transform most of the problem cars into exceptionally quiet cars is to get a complete seal behind the trim. There are nearly an infinite number of ways to do that. A very effective method to seal behind the trim and attain a pristine appearance is detailed in post #1 of this thread.
Hardly a week goes by that I don't see a mention of this problem in this forum or another forum on the Internet. There are still lots of cars out there that would benefit from the wind noise fix.
Here is a link to a post in another Lexus forum from a few days ago that is a classic comment from owners suffering from the trim defect related wind noise: http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums...year/?p=483567
Thank you for letting us know about your successful repair of your car's "wind noise" problem. Reports like yours are very powerful in getting the word out to the many owners who have this problem and are unaware that a solution is available.
The cause of the "wind noise" that affects many LS460s and LS600s is the sealing behind the trim at the corners of the windows in the front doors and was identified in this forum more than 7 years ago. Lexus was informed about this defect but, to the best of my knowledge, has never provided any relief to owners who have this problem.
The only thing required to transform most of the problem cars into exceptionally quiet cars is to get a complete seal behind the trim. There are nearly an infinite number of ways to do that. A very effective method to seal behind the trim and attain a pristine appearance is detailed in post #1 of this thread.
Hardly a week goes by that I don't see a mention of this problem in this forum or another forum on the Internet. There are still lots of cars out there that would benefit from the wind noise fix.
Here is a link to a post in another Lexus forum from a few days ago that is a classic comment from owners suffering from the trim defect related wind noise: http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums...year/?p=483567
06-07-15, 09:07 AM
#144
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: FL
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LS460 Wind Noisr
Why doesn't Lexus do this to all of there LS460"s
[/B]
[/B]
There’s not much new here, most of this has been said before. The purpose of this post is to sort of consolidate the “wind noise fix” details so that LS460/600 owners who are seeking a solution to their wind noise problems will be able to find the details of the “triangle trim fix” – AKA the “jmcraney wind noise fix” - without having to read all the discussion thread.
If you have some interest in the LS460/600 wind noise problem beyond just fixing your car, the first Wind Noise discussion thread (covers the period Jun 07 thru Apr08) on Club Lexus Forums, “LS460 Wind Noise Fix (merged threads)” (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...d-threads.html) is good reading. It is a horror story of epic proportions pitting those owners who thought that they didn’t have wind noise against those who were certain that they did have wind noise. And in all this, Lexus was franticly doing lots of things, such as replacing the side windows, adding foam to doors, sending experts from Japan, etc and making lots of promises to get the problem under control but having little unequivocal success with anything. When this discussion thread ended Lexus was beginning to take the tack that the wind noise that many were experiencing was imaginary and that the cars met “specification” and there would not be any help coming from Lexus.
The moderators ended the first wind noise discussion thread when the “triangle trim” defect was identified as a major source of wind noise and started a new discussion titled “LS460 Wind Noise Fix (continued discussion)” covering the period 19Apr08 – the-present. There is lots of wisdom there. The discussion is long, currently at 721 entries, but if you have some real interest in this subject you should read all of it (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...iscussion.html).
Although a few other causes of wind noise have been identified in the discussion, the triangle-trim-defect seems to be the major problem in the majority of reports from owners in the discussion.
Applicability
The triangle trim repair applies to all 2007-2010 LS460/460Ls and all 2008-2010 LS600s. Some of the cars have the trim defect when they are new, others develop it as they age.
Where is this “Triangle-Trim?”
The triangle-trim is located at the forward corners of the windows in the front doors.
Failure Analysis
The triangle-trim-defect is caused by a failure of the adhesive on the trim to adequately adhere to the vehicle door structure and that causes both a whistling noise problem and poor isolation from sounds that are occurring outside the car. There are several reasons why this happens. The most common reason is caused by the adhesive on the trim being prevented from making contact with the door structure because the aft edge of the trim makes contact with the window gasket before the adhesive can contact the surface that it is supposed to mate with.
The effects of this defect can vary from slight to severe and can be left, right or bilateral depending on the extent of detachment.
If you have a desire for a deeper understanding of this issue here is a short analysis of what I found with my car. The following may be beyond your scope of interest but in case you might have some curiosity about all this I thought I would tell you about some things to look for.
After you get your trim off, and before you start the cleanup/prep, you will have an opportunity to gain some knowledge as to why your car was having a noise problem at the window corners by looking at how the adhesive/gasket residue is distributed on your car and the trim that you removed.
The trim detachment – the cause of the wind noise problem – is a little different for every car. I am going to use a picture of mine as a talking point to help you understand what to look for.
You can see in this picture where the trim was detached by noting where there is adhesive/gasket residue. If the gasket had adhered properly there would have been very little wind noise. Ideally, if the gasket had stuck well, there would have been residue from the gasket left on the car and the trim uniformly. By looking at the picture of mine, you can see that the trim was not attached along the bottom leg of the triangle and most of the rear leg of the triangle because the gasket in that area stayed with the trim when it was pulled off. The upper corner of the trim was well attached as you can see that the gasket/adhesive stayed on both the car and the trim. The gasket/adhesive had separated from the trim on the forward point and part of the upper leg of the triangle as evidenced by the gasket that remained on the car. Several things happen as a result of the trim being loose. There is air intrusion through the registration holes. That large gap at the lower rear corner of the trim becomes exposed. The trim may vibrate and/or produce a diaphragm effect – sort of flutter like a clarinet reed or act like a drumhead.
There are lots of ways to tell if the trim is loose, but all cars will likely benefit from the repair so it is sort of a waste of time to give that too much thought.
Trim Removal
How do you get the trim off? For cars that are “factory fresh” – those that have not had any repair attempts to the triangle trim – getting the trim off is easy. In the process of getting the trim off, you need to be philosophical, if it breaks, it breaks. I have helped many people do this and I don’t know of a single person who has broken their trim. The trim is made of very durable material and seems very unlikely to break. If you break your trim, replacement parts are readily available over the Internet and through Lexus and Toyota dealers, maybe overnight delivery, for about $15 each side. I can help you with the Internet solution if you need it.
Here is a link to a picture of a factory fresh trim piece: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/3868332-post312.html
You can see that it has three registration pins, two of which have clips on them. When you take the trim off, the clips and registration pins will likely break off and fall into the door. A couple of people have expressed concerns about this being loose in the door. No one has ever reported a problem with this. Those pieces have very little mass and should never be a problem. If it becomes a problem it can be dealt with.
The best way to get the trim off is with your fingers. Just lift at the upper rear corner, you might have to use a sharpened wooden paint stir stick to get it started, and sort of peel it off slowly like you would a piece of tape. If you don’t have enough finger strength to get it off, then use a sharpened wooden stir stick to stick under the aft side and sever the white tape. When you start to work on this you are going to think, Oh My, it’s going to break any second, but I don’t think you could break it with a hammer.
Useful Tools
A caulk spreader and a sharpened paint-stir-stick are handy for doing the repair.
Repair
Here is a very conservative way to repair your car that has yielded good results for many DIYers. It may not be the fastest way or the easiest way but no other way will give better results and since this takes only about 10 minutes per side to accomplish, finding a faster way seems like wasted effort unless you are in the repair business. I have hesitated to refine this method because I expected Lexus to take over my business but so far something has delayed their response.
I suggest that you use the exact sealant that I have recommended, if you can find it - the General Electric stock number is GE280. A tube of sealant is enough to do about 10 cars so use it judiciously. I continue to believe that this is a very satisfactory product for this task.
This is a template that you can use to cut your patches. You can use cheap scissors, the kind with the orange handle, that you buy at an office supply store to cut your patches from the 30 gauge stock or whatever material you choose. You might want to finish the edges with a file. It is kind of hard on the scissors but you can do a lot of patches before the scissors give up.
When you get the metal patch in place you need to let everything dry overnight and then your car is weather tight. If you break the trim you can drive your car and take as long as you need to while you get a replacement trim piece. I recommend that you wait for about a week after you put the metal patches on before you put the black plastic trim on. That will give you a chance to evaluate your handiwork under dynamic conditions before you apply the trim. Be sure before you put the trim on to check the patch for good adhesion. You can do that by picking at it with your fingertip.
If you have chosen a different type of sealant/adhesive, I suggest that you avoid using a fast-drying or contact type product at this point. You want to avoid having this piece under stress as it cures. Some fast drying products have lots of shrinkage and of course contact cement will almost certainly induce stress. If this part is under stress the seal may rupture when the window is operated.
It might be important to do this step with the window up as there is a slight bow-out of the window gasket when the window tops out.
If it doesn’t go well, and you have used the sealant that I recommended, you can take it off and do it again many times. Clean up is easy.
Good Luck!!!
Amen!!!
Jeff (AKA “Jim” – “Jim Craney”)
If you have some interest in the LS460/600 wind noise problem beyond just fixing your car, the first Wind Noise discussion thread (covers the period Jun 07 thru Apr08) on Club Lexus Forums, “LS460 Wind Noise Fix (merged threads)” (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...d-threads.html) is good reading. It is a horror story of epic proportions pitting those owners who thought that they didn’t have wind noise against those who were certain that they did have wind noise. And in all this, Lexus was franticly doing lots of things, such as replacing the side windows, adding foam to doors, sending experts from Japan, etc and making lots of promises to get the problem under control but having little unequivocal success with anything. When this discussion thread ended Lexus was beginning to take the tack that the wind noise that many were experiencing was imaginary and that the cars met “specification” and there would not be any help coming from Lexus.
The moderators ended the first wind noise discussion thread when the “triangle trim” defect was identified as a major source of wind noise and started a new discussion titled “LS460 Wind Noise Fix (continued discussion)” covering the period 19Apr08 – the-present. There is lots of wisdom there. The discussion is long, currently at 721 entries, but if you have some real interest in this subject you should read all of it (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...iscussion.html).
Although a few other causes of wind noise have been identified in the discussion, the triangle-trim-defect seems to be the major problem in the majority of reports from owners in the discussion.
Applicability
The triangle trim repair applies to all 2007-2010 LS460/460Ls and all 2008-2010 LS600s. Some of the cars have the trim defect when they are new, others develop it as they age.
Where is this “Triangle-Trim?”
The triangle-trim is located at the forward corners of the windows in the front doors.
Failure Analysis
The triangle-trim-defect is caused by a failure of the adhesive on the trim to adequately adhere to the vehicle door structure and that causes both a whistling noise problem and poor isolation from sounds that are occurring outside the car. There are several reasons why this happens. The most common reason is caused by the adhesive on the trim being prevented from making contact with the door structure because the aft edge of the trim makes contact with the window gasket before the adhesive can contact the surface that it is supposed to mate with.
The effects of this defect can vary from slight to severe and can be left, right or bilateral depending on the extent of detachment.
If you have a desire for a deeper understanding of this issue here is a short analysis of what I found with my car. The following may be beyond your scope of interest but in case you might have some curiosity about all this I thought I would tell you about some things to look for.
After you get your trim off, and before you start the cleanup/prep, you will have an opportunity to gain some knowledge as to why your car was having a noise problem at the window corners by looking at how the adhesive/gasket residue is distributed on your car and the trim that you removed.
The trim detachment – the cause of the wind noise problem – is a little different for every car. I am going to use a picture of mine as a talking point to help you understand what to look for.
You can see in this picture where the trim was detached by noting where there is adhesive/gasket residue. If the gasket had adhered properly there would have been very little wind noise. Ideally, if the gasket had stuck well, there would have been residue from the gasket left on the car and the trim uniformly. By looking at the picture of mine, you can see that the trim was not attached along the bottom leg of the triangle and most of the rear leg of the triangle because the gasket in that area stayed with the trim when it was pulled off. The upper corner of the trim was well attached as you can see that the gasket/adhesive stayed on both the car and the trim. The gasket/adhesive had separated from the trim on the forward point and part of the upper leg of the triangle as evidenced by the gasket that remained on the car. Several things happen as a result of the trim being loose. There is air intrusion through the registration holes. That large gap at the lower rear corner of the trim becomes exposed. The trim may vibrate and/or produce a diaphragm effect – sort of flutter like a clarinet reed or act like a drumhead.
There are lots of ways to tell if the trim is loose, but all cars will likely benefit from the repair so it is sort of a waste of time to give that too much thought.
Trim Removal
How do you get the trim off? For cars that are “factory fresh” – those that have not had any repair attempts to the triangle trim – getting the trim off is easy. In the process of getting the trim off, you need to be philosophical, if it breaks, it breaks. I have helped many people do this and I don’t know of a single person who has broken their trim. The trim is made of very durable material and seems very unlikely to break. If you break your trim, replacement parts are readily available over the Internet and through Lexus and Toyota dealers, maybe overnight delivery, for about $15 each side. I can help you with the Internet solution if you need it.
Here is a link to a picture of a factory fresh trim piece: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/3868332-post312.html
You can see that it has three registration pins, two of which have clips on them. When you take the trim off, the clips and registration pins will likely break off and fall into the door. A couple of people have expressed concerns about this being loose in the door. No one has ever reported a problem with this. Those pieces have very little mass and should never be a problem. If it becomes a problem it can be dealt with.
The best way to get the trim off is with your fingers. Just lift at the upper rear corner, you might have to use a sharpened wooden paint stir stick to get it started, and sort of peel it off slowly like you would a piece of tape. If you don’t have enough finger strength to get it off, then use a sharpened wooden stir stick to stick under the aft side and sever the white tape. When you start to work on this you are going to think, Oh My, it’s going to break any second, but I don’t think you could break it with a hammer.
Useful Tools
A caulk spreader and a sharpened paint-stir-stick are handy for doing the repair.
Repair
Here is a very conservative way to repair your car that has yielded good results for many DIYers. It may not be the fastest way or the easiest way but no other way will give better results and since this takes only about 10 minutes per side to accomplish, finding a faster way seems like wasted effort unless you are in the repair business. I have hesitated to refine this method because I expected Lexus to take over my business but so far something has delayed their response.
I suggest that you use the exact sealant that I have recommended, if you can find it - the General Electric stock number is GE280. A tube of sealant is enough to do about 10 cars so use it judiciously. I continue to believe that this is a very satisfactory product for this task.
This is a template that you can use to cut your patches. You can use cheap scissors, the kind with the orange handle, that you buy at an office supply store to cut your patches from the 30 gauge stock or whatever material you choose. You might want to finish the edges with a file. It is kind of hard on the scissors but you can do a lot of patches before the scissors give up.
When you get the metal patch in place you need to let everything dry overnight and then your car is weather tight. If you break the trim you can drive your car and take as long as you need to while you get a replacement trim piece. I recommend that you wait for about a week after you put the metal patches on before you put the black plastic trim on. That will give you a chance to evaluate your handiwork under dynamic conditions before you apply the trim. Be sure before you put the trim on to check the patch for good adhesion. You can do that by picking at it with your fingertip.
If you have chosen a different type of sealant/adhesive, I suggest that you avoid using a fast-drying or contact type product at this point. You want to avoid having this piece under stress as it cures. Some fast drying products have lots of shrinkage and of course contact cement will almost certainly induce stress. If this part is under stress the seal may rupture when the window is operated.
It might be important to do this step with the window up as there is a slight bow-out of the window gasket when the window tops out.
If it doesn’t go well, and you have used the sealant that I recommended, you can take it off and do it again many times. Clean up is easy.
Good Luck!!!
Amen!!!
Jeff (AKA “Jim” – “Jim Craney”)
06-09-15, 05:57 PM
#145
Moderator
Thread Starter
I was hoping someone else would respond to your question. I've already said too much about this.
When this problem emerged with many of the '07 LS460s and LS460Ls, Lexus was all over it. They put considerable effort into trying to solve it. There were many reports in this forum and other forums that Lexus and many of their dealerships understood there was a problem and a solution would be forthcoming.
When the '08 LS460s, LS460Ls and LS60hLs had this problem too Lexus ceased to pursue a remedy and declared that all cars "met specifications."
While getting my car serviced, in late '08, at the dealership where I bought it - one of the largest Lexus dealerships in the US - I asked the salesman I bought it from what he knew about the "wind noise" that so many were experiencing and he told me he had never heard anything about it.
Lexus Corp likely closed the door on the wind noise issue in early '08. There are probably still a significant number of LS owners who could improve their pleasure of ownership by getting some relief from this problem. It would be noble of Lexus to actively seek out the owners of these cars and offer them a solution.
When this problem emerged with many of the '07 LS460s and LS460Ls, Lexus was all over it. They put considerable effort into trying to solve it. There were many reports in this forum and other forums that Lexus and many of their dealerships understood there was a problem and a solution would be forthcoming.
When the '08 LS460s, LS460Ls and LS60hLs had this problem too Lexus ceased to pursue a remedy and declared that all cars "met specifications."
While getting my car serviced, in late '08, at the dealership where I bought it - one of the largest Lexus dealerships in the US - I asked the salesman I bought it from what he knew about the "wind noise" that so many were experiencing and he told me he had never heard anything about it.
Lexus Corp likely closed the door on the wind noise issue in early '08. There are probably still a significant number of LS owners who could improve their pleasure of ownership by getting some relief from this problem. It would be noble of Lexus to actively seek out the owners of these cars and offer them a solution.
06-10-15, 05:06 AM
#146
When I got my 2007 later in its life, but still with 45k miles, I thought the wind noise problem it had would defiantly stop me from buying another LS later or next. After the "fixes" and discovering the comfort of the car, I do a lot of miles on the "Texas Bermuda triangle" (San Antonio, Dallas, Houston), I will most likely buy another 460 (or 480 by then). Maybe Lexus was factoring similar owner sentiments into their response plan.
06-17-15, 09:52 AM
#147
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: FL
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You responded to me on the wind fix on my LS 460 but it didn't go through. would you mind please trying again.
Thanks
David Baker drrexbaker@gmail.com
Thanks
David Baker drrexbaker@gmail.com
06-09-17, 09:34 AM
#148
Does anyone make the patch that would work on my 2007 LS460L ? I would like to try this to see if it cuts down the wind noise but, afraid I will cut my hands up trying to do this.
Thanks !
Thanks !
The following users liked this post:
DavidinCT (06-09-17)
06-11-17, 10:03 PM
#150
Pole Position
have you guys tried just replacing the fins with the newer ones,without doing the " Jmcraney " fix? ; what was the outcome?
Fin Parts#
67495-50030 / 67496-50030
Fin Parts#
67495-50030 / 67496-50030