Dealers Cooperative on TSIBs?
06-04-09, 08:42 AM
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Dealers Cooperative on TSIBs?
I just purchased an LS460L (love it) and have observed many of the same issues as others have reported and have made a list of all the TSIBs that apply to my VIN. How do you typically handle these with your dealer? Do you actually tell them that you're in the loop on TSIBs and tell them the ones you want addressed? Are they cooperative? Can they refuse to apply TSIBs if they know you're aware of them?
Do I address a TSIB or two in one service visit or give them a handful that all apply? Any advice on how you've approached your dealer so they don't tear apart my car in haste when I'm about to bring a few things to their attention.
Do I address a TSIB or two in one service visit or give them a handful that all apply? Any advice on how you've approached your dealer so they don't tear apart my car in haste when I'm about to bring a few things to their attention.
06-04-09, 05:54 PM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
Be prepared for yur dealer to either be unaware of the TSIB's, or to say they don't apply to your car. I have an A-1 dealer, winner of all kinds of national awards, and I still get that from time to time.
Print them out (completely) and show them to the service writer, with your VIN series highlighted. Make a second copy and leave it with the service people so you can be sure they have the instructions.
Keep in mind some of them *may* have already been done on your car, but there are ways to verify that from service records or marks applied to the car to note that they were done.
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Print them out (completely) and show them to the service writer, with your VIN series highlighted. Make a second copy and leave it with the service people so you can be sure they have the instructions.
Keep in mind some of them *may* have already been done on your car, but there are ways to verify that from service records or marks applied to the car to note that they were done.
.
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02-14-10, 09:06 AM
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If you live in the Bay Area you can call Kevin Davidson @ Coliseum Lexus, he's been my service writer for many years. He will be able to help you with a your TSIB's. Just make sure you give him the TSIB #'s on the bulletin.
02-14-10, 10:51 AM
#5
You really need to be selective with TSBs and only get those done in which you're actually experiencing an issue. This is for several reasons:
1. An attempt to repair something that isn't broken can make a non-existent problem an actual problem. Just because there's a TSB does NOT mean ALL vehicles will experience that issue. An example of this is the infamous wind noise issue. I don't have the issue - at all - it would be stupid to let the dealer touch it and risk causing an issue.
2. Many TSBs indicate the dealer must verify the concern, require Lexus to contact an engineer or similar. Warranty audit chargebacks are a real concern for dealers - none of them are just going to randomly apply TSBs that aren't warranted. This is especially true the more mileage a vehicle racks up... manufacturers refer to this as "reconditioning a vehicle" and they won't do it.
3. If you go in with a list of all TSBs, you're going to annoy the SA and tech... chances are pretty good they will tell you "NPF" (no problem found) "DNA" (does not apply) or if they agree to do it, it's not going to be under positive conditions and likely won't be done right.
If you actually HAVE a problem (and believe me, sometimes I convince myself I do when I see a TSB... placebo effect) - that's one thing. If you're asking the dealer to apply all TSBs like a Windows Update - not going to happen and if it does, I think you'll be sorry... you'll come out with misaligned/misinstalled parts, wind noise, etc.
Something to think about.
Congrats on the new car - enjoy it, don't fret the small stuff.
1. An attempt to repair something that isn't broken can make a non-existent problem an actual problem. Just because there's a TSB does NOT mean ALL vehicles will experience that issue. An example of this is the infamous wind noise issue. I don't have the issue - at all - it would be stupid to let the dealer touch it and risk causing an issue.
2. Many TSBs indicate the dealer must verify the concern, require Lexus to contact an engineer or similar. Warranty audit chargebacks are a real concern for dealers - none of them are just going to randomly apply TSBs that aren't warranted. This is especially true the more mileage a vehicle racks up... manufacturers refer to this as "reconditioning a vehicle" and they won't do it.
3. If you go in with a list of all TSBs, you're going to annoy the SA and tech... chances are pretty good they will tell you "NPF" (no problem found) "DNA" (does not apply) or if they agree to do it, it's not going to be under positive conditions and likely won't be done right.
If you actually HAVE a problem (and believe me, sometimes I convince myself I do when I see a TSB... placebo effect) - that's one thing. If you're asking the dealer to apply all TSBs like a Windows Update - not going to happen and if it does, I think you'll be sorry... you'll come out with misaligned/misinstalled parts, wind noise, etc.
Something to think about.
Congrats on the new car - enjoy it, don't fret the small stuff.
02-14-10, 06:40 PM
#6
Sort of TSIB-related, so I'll throw it in here....
I bought my '07 a month ago in San Francisco with 15k miles, and since then I've put nearly 5k more miles on it, mostly on the drive home to Indiana. I've come up with a list of problems with the car that I will present to my local dealer shortly.
Most of my issues seem to have been addressed in TSIBs, but two haven't:
I have a sticky button on the center console, shows up in cold weather. Not a biggie, but annoying. (As my cynical Brother says, "today the buttons, tomorrow the accelerator".)
On a few occasions the passenger seat belt warning kept chiming even after the passenger got out. Sticky occupancy sensor I'm guessing, but very intermittent.
The TSIB issues are:
Seat Comfort - This is subjective I know, but the consensus seems to be that the seats are more comfortable after the TSIB is done.
Loose glove compartment door, fairly common apparently
Instrument panel rattle noise. Actually there are 2 possibly related TSIBs for noise in this area, one is for dash noise where dash meets windshield, the other is for upper/lower windshield tick noise.
I notice this on rough roads, again this is an issue that only presents when the vehicle is cold.
Hesitation on acceleration - There is definitely a lag (guessing about a second) between the time you punch the accelerator and the time the vehicle responds. Not sure what is normal though.
Here are my questions:
How do I determine if my acceleration lag is normal, or do I just let the dealer do that?
Am I going to have trouble if the dealer can't duplicate my dash noise and sticky button issues because they only happen when the car is cold, and the passenger occupancy sensor problem has happened maybe 3 times total?
I bought my '07 a month ago in San Francisco with 15k miles, and since then I've put nearly 5k more miles on it, mostly on the drive home to Indiana. I've come up with a list of problems with the car that I will present to my local dealer shortly.
Most of my issues seem to have been addressed in TSIBs, but two haven't:
I have a sticky button on the center console, shows up in cold weather. Not a biggie, but annoying. (As my cynical Brother says, "today the buttons, tomorrow the accelerator".)
On a few occasions the passenger seat belt warning kept chiming even after the passenger got out. Sticky occupancy sensor I'm guessing, but very intermittent.
The TSIB issues are:
Seat Comfort - This is subjective I know, but the consensus seems to be that the seats are more comfortable after the TSIB is done.
Loose glove compartment door, fairly common apparently
Instrument panel rattle noise. Actually there are 2 possibly related TSIBs for noise in this area, one is for dash noise where dash meets windshield, the other is for upper/lower windshield tick noise.
I notice this on rough roads, again this is an issue that only presents when the vehicle is cold.
Hesitation on acceleration - There is definitely a lag (guessing about a second) between the time you punch the accelerator and the time the vehicle responds. Not sure what is normal though.
Here are my questions:
How do I determine if my acceleration lag is normal, or do I just let the dealer do that?
Am I going to have trouble if the dealer can't duplicate my dash noise and sticky button issues because they only happen when the car is cold, and the passenger occupancy sensor problem has happened maybe 3 times total?
02-14-10, 07:57 PM
#7
I picked up my 07 in Dec also,
- I dont have any lag what so ever on mine, so anything other than get up and just go right now is not normal and they need to address it
- the dash rattle in mine was addressed by putting in some stiff foam, about 1/2" thick in the area between the dash and the front right speaker grille on mine. I just pushed it in deep enough to press back on the dash and its not visible. I did the TSB myself that cuts off the plastic retainer pins under the windshield but didnt seem to make a difference the foam really did and its easy to do yourself. I also had the glove box replaced by the dealer. Its a completely different box! it has a much better design and shelf now angles backwards to give your mammoth owners manual more room in addition its much easier to get at the cabin filter.
- I dont have any lag what so ever on mine, so anything other than get up and just go right now is not normal and they need to address it
- the dash rattle in mine was addressed by putting in some stiff foam, about 1/2" thick in the area between the dash and the front right speaker grille on mine. I just pushed it in deep enough to press back on the dash and its not visible. I did the TSB myself that cuts off the plastic retainer pins under the windshield but didnt seem to make a difference the foam really did and its easy to do yourself. I also had the glove box replaced by the dealer. Its a completely different box! it has a much better design and shelf now angles backwards to give your mammoth owners manual more room in addition its much easier to get at the cabin filter.
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02-14-10, 08:15 PM
#8
I don't think you'll have any problems with the glove box or seats - those are well known fixes.
Typically, you'll have the option of riding with a tech if they can't reproduce a problem on their own... if it can't be reproduced with them and you in the car, it's not considered a problem in most cases - this is especially true with noises, rattles, etc. If you can point the noise out and the tech can hear it, no problem. If a problem occurs under certain conditions, speak to your service advisor and let them know that you'd like to swing by under those conditions - even if they can't repair it that second, they can at least verify the concern. Nothing is more frustrating than to have a problem occur on a cold day, but take it in on a warm day.
A note on the acceleration... it's really difficult to determine what you're referring to through a computer screen and you're right, it is subjective... but, the LS460 uses electronic drive by wire response for throttle control. This provides smoother acceleration, but there is a slight a delay in terms of response, especially at WOT. I think you'll find this to be "within operating specs" but if you feel it's a safety concern, you should definitely mention it to the dealer. Through their computer, they can measure throttle response very easily and tell you if that's just the nature of the beast, or not.
Lexus is a bit better about this than other manufacturers, but for "little details" - things that are worn, sticky, etc., it is much harder to get a picky repair (and I'm not suggesting you are, only something to keep in mind) if you are not the original owner. I know it shouldn't be, but that is the sad reality sometimes. Manufacturers and dealers refer to this as "warranty reconditioning" -- buying a used car and expecting the dealer/manufacturer to restore it to new condition. Obviously there's a line between something that should be working that isn't, and unreasonable expectations. This line can can vary based on your relationship with the dealer and their relationship with the manufacturer (excessive warranty audit chargebacks, etc.)
Good luck!
Typically, you'll have the option of riding with a tech if they can't reproduce a problem on their own... if it can't be reproduced with them and you in the car, it's not considered a problem in most cases - this is especially true with noises, rattles, etc. If you can point the noise out and the tech can hear it, no problem. If a problem occurs under certain conditions, speak to your service advisor and let them know that you'd like to swing by under those conditions - even if they can't repair it that second, they can at least verify the concern. Nothing is more frustrating than to have a problem occur on a cold day, but take it in on a warm day.
A note on the acceleration... it's really difficult to determine what you're referring to through a computer screen and you're right, it is subjective... but, the LS460 uses electronic drive by wire response for throttle control. This provides smoother acceleration, but there is a slight a delay in terms of response, especially at WOT. I think you'll find this to be "within operating specs" but if you feel it's a safety concern, you should definitely mention it to the dealer. Through their computer, they can measure throttle response very easily and tell you if that's just the nature of the beast, or not.
Lexus is a bit better about this than other manufacturers, but for "little details" - things that are worn, sticky, etc., it is much harder to get a picky repair (and I'm not suggesting you are, only something to keep in mind) if you are not the original owner. I know it shouldn't be, but that is the sad reality sometimes. Manufacturers and dealers refer to this as "warranty reconditioning" -- buying a used car and expecting the dealer/manufacturer to restore it to new condition. Obviously there's a line between something that should be working that isn't, and unreasonable expectations. This line can can vary based on your relationship with the dealer and their relationship with the manufacturer (excessive warranty audit chargebacks, etc.)
Good luck!
02-15-10, 04:05 AM
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dealers cooperative on tsibs
prior to my 09 460ls awd swb i drove a mercedes s 500 amg 2006 any time i brought in for service the sm would print out any tsibs for my car and take care of them he said mercedes requried this to be done.the reason i do not drive a mercedes any more is the navigation system never worked properly for 18 months they finally bought it back. when i have a problem that is tsib related with my lexus they fix asap i am going in today for seat cushion problem. is there a law or requirement regarding tsibs on how long manufactures or dealers have to be responsible to correct tsibs.non related i have a 2005 thunderbird special anv.addition with 2000 miles out of warranty would tsibs be covered
02-15-10, 11:13 AM
#10
prior to my 09 460ls awd swb i drove a mercedes s 500 amg 2006 any time i brought in for service the sm would print out any tsibs for my car and take care of them he said mercedes requried this to be done.the reason i do not drive a mercedes any more is the navigation system never worked properly for 18 months they finally bought it back. when i have a problem that is tsib related with my lexus they fix asap i am going in today for seat cushion problem. is there a law or requirement regarding tsibs on how long manufactures or dealers have to be responsible to correct tsibs.non related i have a 2005 thunderbird special anv.addition with 2000 miles out of warranty would tsibs be covered
Re your T'bird, probably only if emission-related. All Lexus TSIBs show warranty applicability, either standard warranty, powertrain warranty, or emission warranty, depending on the nature of the affected part. Emission warranties are regulated by the EPA and are typically longer. Some states, I know CA is one, require longer emission warranties than the Federal standard.
Last edited by jstjohnz; 02-15-10 at 11:21 AM.
02-15-10, 11:34 AM
#11
I picked up my 07 in Dec also,
- I dont have any lag what so ever on mine, so anything other than get up and just go right now is not normal and they need to address it
- the dash rattle in mine was addressed by putting in some stiff foam, about 1/2" thick in the area between the dash and the front right speaker grille on mine. I just pushed it in deep enough to press back on the dash and its not visible. I did the TSB myself that cuts off the plastic retainer pins under the windshield but didnt seem to make a difference the foam really did and its easy to do yourself. I also had the glove box replaced by the dealer. Its a completely different box! it has a much better design and shelf now angles backwards to give your mammoth owners manual more room in addition its much easier to get at the cabin filter.
- I dont have any lag what so ever on mine, so anything other than get up and just go right now is not normal and they need to address it
- the dash rattle in mine was addressed by putting in some stiff foam, about 1/2" thick in the area between the dash and the front right speaker grille on mine. I just pushed it in deep enough to press back on the dash and its not visible. I did the TSB myself that cuts off the plastic retainer pins under the windshield but didnt seem to make a difference the foam really did and its easy to do yourself. I also had the glove box replaced by the dealer. Its a completely different box! it has a much better design and shelf now angles backwards to give your mammoth owners manual more room in addition its much easier to get at the cabin filter.
My concern is that a number of my issues seem to be cold weather related, and if I don't get them dealt with now my warranty may be up before the next cold weather sets in.
Does anyone know if TSIB coverage is extended when you have a Lexus extended warranty?
02-15-10, 11:40 AM
#12
prior to my 09 460ls awd swb i drove a mercedes s 500 amg 2006 any time i brought in for service the sm would print out any tsibs for my car and take care of them he said mercedes requried this to be done.the reason i do not drive a mercedes any more is the navigation system never worked properly for 18 months they finally bought it back. when i have a problem that is tsib related with my lexus they fix asap i am going in today for seat cushion problem. is there a law or requirement regarding tsibs on how long manufactures or dealers have to be responsible to correct tsibs.non related i have a 2005 thunderbird special anv.addition with 2000 miles out of warranty would tsibs be covered
02-15-10, 11:50 AM
#13
Typically, you'll have the option of riding with a tech if they can't reproduce a problem on their own... If you can point the noise out and the tech can hear it, no problem. If a problem occurs under certain conditions, speak to your service advisor and let them know that you'd like to swing by under those conditions - even if they can't repair it that second, they can at least verify the concern.
Lexus is a bit better about this than other manufacturers, but for "little details" - things that are worn, sticky, etc., it is much harder to get a picky repair (and I'm not suggesting you are, only something to keep in mind) if you are not the original owner. I know it shouldn't be, but that is the sad reality sometimes. Manufacturers and dealers refer to this as "warranty reconditioning" -- buying a used car and expecting the dealer/manufacturer to restore it to new condition. Obviously there's a line between something that should be working that isn't, and unreasonable expectations. This line can can vary based on your relationship with the dealer and their relationship with the manufacturer (excessive warranty audit chargebacks, etc.)
Good luck!
Lexus is a bit better about this than other manufacturers, but for "little details" - things that are worn, sticky, etc., it is much harder to get a picky repair (and I'm not suggesting you are, only something to keep in mind) if you are not the original owner. I know it shouldn't be, but that is the sad reality sometimes. Manufacturers and dealers refer to this as "warranty reconditioning" -- buying a used car and expecting the dealer/manufacturer to restore it to new condition. Obviously there's a line between something that should be working that isn't, and unreasonable expectations. This line can can vary based on your relationship with the dealer and their relationship with the manufacturer (excessive warranty audit chargebacks, etc.)
Good luck!
It's a bit discouraging to hear that as a 2nd owner I may not get the service an original owner would get. Hopefully I won't have any problems.
I don't think any of my issues are related to parts being worn out, the previous owner drove less than 5k miles/yr and the interior looks like new.
02-15-10, 08:17 PM
#14
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12-17-10, 09:09 PM
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I think I'll start by taking the car in and just discussing my list of issues. For the cold weather stuff, I suppose I could drop off the car on a night that's going to be cold and let them try to reproduce the problems the next morning.
It's a bit discouraging to hear that as a 2nd owner I may not get the service an original owner would get. Hopefully I won't have any problems.
I don't think any of my issues are related to parts being worn out, the previous owner drove less than 5k miles/yr and the interior looks like new.
It's a bit discouraging to hear that as a 2nd owner I may not get the service an original owner would get. Hopefully I won't have any problems.
I don't think any of my issues are related to parts being worn out, the previous owner drove less than 5k miles/yr and the interior looks like new.
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