Test drove a 2008 LS460 and 460L
10-17-07, 07:22 PM
#16
Or could it be that some owners are just pickier than others?
To be honest, I did hear some wind noise coming from the front windows (not the high-pitched noise cause by the side mirrors). I never noticed this in my '04 430. Fortunately, I sold it to a friend and we took a ride last weekend along the same highway that I drive to work on every day. Got up to 80 mph. Listening intently from the passenger seat, I could indeed hear the same type of wind noise as on the 460, it was just much softer... or was it? The most striking thing that I realized was that my conversation with my friend was much lounder than conversations in the 460. In the 460, I can hold a perfectly clear conversation with the passenger while speaking in a very low tone. In the 430, you have to speak in a normal volume. I always thought the 430 was a quiet car, and it is, but the 460 really is that much quieter. It got even quieter after the laminated window TSIB was installed.
So Lexus is really correct when they say that you notice the wind noise more because the cabin is that much more quiet. It's true. I would make the following analogy: When you're at home watching TV or puttering around the house, you may notice that your next door neighbor has his stero on, but it isn't really bothersome. But if you're reading a book in silence or in bed trying to sleep, it drives you up the wall.
Lexus has almost put themselves in a lose-lose situation here by building such a car with such a quiet cabin. They have come to realize that by making the car so quiet, it demands that outside noises be minimized as well, so they are coming out with various TSIBs to try and address that, but from my experience, about the only way they're going to be able to "eliminate" the wind noise enough to make some people happy, is to make the cabin noisier, or introduce a noice cancellation feature like you find in Bose headphones. Of course, both of those solutions are just making the cabin noisier in order to mask other noise.
To call this a design flaw or a return/arbitration type problem is, in my opinion, not only inaccurate, but an injustice. This is a great car, albeit with some first model year issues, but superior to anything else in it's price range.
My 2 cents.
460 SWB, 25,000 miles (Delivered Dec 26)
To be honest, I did hear some wind noise coming from the front windows (not the high-pitched noise cause by the side mirrors). I never noticed this in my '04 430. Fortunately, I sold it to a friend and we took a ride last weekend along the same highway that I drive to work on every day. Got up to 80 mph. Listening intently from the passenger seat, I could indeed hear the same type of wind noise as on the 460, it was just much softer... or was it? The most striking thing that I realized was that my conversation with my friend was much lounder than conversations in the 460. In the 460, I can hold a perfectly clear conversation with the passenger while speaking in a very low tone. In the 430, you have to speak in a normal volume. I always thought the 430 was a quiet car, and it is, but the 460 really is that much quieter. It got even quieter after the laminated window TSIB was installed.
So Lexus is really correct when they say that you notice the wind noise more because the cabin is that much more quiet. It's true. I would make the following analogy: When you're at home watching TV or puttering around the house, you may notice that your next door neighbor has his stero on, but it isn't really bothersome. But if you're reading a book in silence or in bed trying to sleep, it drives you up the wall.
Lexus has almost put themselves in a lose-lose situation here by building such a car with such a quiet cabin. They have come to realize that by making the car so quiet, it demands that outside noises be minimized as well, so they are coming out with various TSIBs to try and address that, but from my experience, about the only way they're going to be able to "eliminate" the wind noise enough to make some people happy, is to make the cabin noisier, or introduce a noice cancellation feature like you find in Bose headphones. Of course, both of those solutions are just making the cabin noisier in order to mask other noise.
To call this a design flaw or a return/arbitration type problem is, in my opinion, not only inaccurate, but an injustice. This is a great car, albeit with some first model year issues, but superior to anything else in it's price range.
My 2 cents.
460 SWB, 25,000 miles (Delivered Dec 26)
but on the other hand, you do have a point about the cabin being too quiet about everything else, so the "weigh" of wind noise increases.
10-17-07, 08:45 PM
#17
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The fact that the problem only occurs, or only seems to occur in some, but not all cars leads to several possibilities (all IMHO, and not in any particular order).
1.) Something about how these individual cars were built is causing the problem. Could be slightly misaligned mirrors, lights under the mirrors, window seals, etc..
2.) Several problems additively are causing the problem. So fixing one of them (laminated glass, or window seals) may only fix part of the problem.
3.) Some people are more sensitive/picky and are more likely to notice the wind noise. Doesn't excuse the problem, but it is human nature.
4.) Some people may have the wind noise and not be able to hear it. Let's not forget that the average age of an owner of an LS460 is around 60 years old. Not too many owners are in their 20's. As we all age, we lose a fair bit of hearing, especially in higher frequencies.
5.) There are factors that no one may be considering, for example ambient temperature. It could be that the noise occurs over 90F, but not in cold weather due to expansion of metal or differential expansion of different parts.
6.) Making the car so inherently quiet, makes lower amplitude noises noticeable instead of them hiding in the noise floor. These are impressively quiet cars until the wind noise hits.
7.) Something on some of these cars (?outside mirrors) is resonating at a frequency that is developed at highway speeds, or a specific highway speed. Different speed, different vibrational frequency, no resonance.
A zillion other possibilities. While it is tempting to say that this isn't rocket science, perhaps it is. I honestly believe that if a solution was apparant and easy, it would have been taken care of long ago. Lexus doesn't need the bad PR and loss of sales on the high end cars. This clearly hurts them.
I consider myself very lucky that my car doesn't have the wind noise. I purchased it sight unseen (as do many other buyers) and could have been bitten by this. I truly sympathize with those who are annoyed by this.
Lexus knows of the problem, and knows of the frustration of owners. Hopefully, engineers with wind tunnels, sound meters, and a lot of good engineering know-how will solve the problem. Then, if they are responsible, they will issue a TSIB and after repairs all will be well. I sure hope if happens soon.
My $0.02. YMMV.
Oh, I forgot the disclaimer:
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1.) Something about how these individual cars were built is causing the problem. Could be slightly misaligned mirrors, lights under the mirrors, window seals, etc..
2.) Several problems additively are causing the problem. So fixing one of them (laminated glass, or window seals) may only fix part of the problem.
3.) Some people are more sensitive/picky and are more likely to notice the wind noise. Doesn't excuse the problem, but it is human nature.
4.) Some people may have the wind noise and not be able to hear it. Let's not forget that the average age of an owner of an LS460 is around 60 years old. Not too many owners are in their 20's. As we all age, we lose a fair bit of hearing, especially in higher frequencies.
5.) There are factors that no one may be considering, for example ambient temperature. It could be that the noise occurs over 90F, but not in cold weather due to expansion of metal or differential expansion of different parts.
6.) Making the car so inherently quiet, makes lower amplitude noises noticeable instead of them hiding in the noise floor. These are impressively quiet cars until the wind noise hits.
7.) Something on some of these cars (?outside mirrors) is resonating at a frequency that is developed at highway speeds, or a specific highway speed. Different speed, different vibrational frequency, no resonance.
A zillion other possibilities. While it is tempting to say that this isn't rocket science, perhaps it is. I honestly believe that if a solution was apparant and easy, it would have been taken care of long ago. Lexus doesn't need the bad PR and loss of sales on the high end cars. This clearly hurts them.
I consider myself very lucky that my car doesn't have the wind noise. I purchased it sight unseen (as do many other buyers) and could have been bitten by this. I truly sympathize with those who are annoyed by this.
Lexus knows of the problem, and knows of the frustration of owners. Hopefully, engineers with wind tunnels, sound meters, and a lot of good engineering know-how will solve the problem. Then, if they are responsible, they will issue a TSIB and after repairs all will be well. I sure hope if happens soon.
My $0.02. YMMV.
Oh, I forgot the disclaimer:
This product is meant for educational purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Postage will be paid by addressee. Subject to approval. This is not an offer to sell securities. Apply only to affected area. May be too intense for some viewers. Do not stamp. Use other side for additional listings. For recreational use only. Do not disturb. All models over 18 years of age. If condition persists, consult your physician. No user-serviceable parts inside. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. Subject to change without notice. Times approximate. Simulated picture. No postage necessary if mailed in the United States. Breaking seal constitutes acceptance of agreement. For off-road use only. As seen on TV. One size fits all. Many suitcases look alike. Contains a substantial amount of non-tobacco ingredients. Colors may, in time, fade. We have sent the forms which seem to be right for you. Slippery when wet. For office use only. Not affiliated with the American Red Cross. Drop in any mailbox. Edited for television. Keep cool; process promptly. Post office will not deliver without postage. List was current at time of printing. Return to sender, no forwarding order on file, unable to forward. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to perform. At participating locations only. Not the Beatles. Penalty for private use. See label for sequence. Substantial penalty for early withdrawal. Do not write below this line. Falling rock. Lost ticket pays maximum rate. Your cancelled check is your receipt. Add toner. Place stamp here. Avoid contact with skin. Sanitized for your protection. Be sure each item is properly endorsed. Sign here without admitting guilt. Slightly higher west of the Mississippi. Employees and their families are not eligible. Beware of dog. Contestants have been briefed on some questions before the show. Limited time offer, call now to insure prompt delivery. You must be present to win. No passes accepted for this engagement. No purchase necessary. Processed at location stamped in code at top of carton. Shading within a garment may occur. Use only in well-ventilated area. Keep away from fire or flame. Replace with same type. Approved for veterans. Booths for two or more. Check here if tax deductible. Some equipment shown is optional. Price does not include taxes. No Canadian coins. Not recommended for children. Prerecorded for this time zone. Reproduction strictly prohibited. No solicitors. No alcohol, dogs, or horses. No anchovies unless otherwise specified. Restaurant package, not for resale. List at least two alternate dates. First pull up, then pull down. Call toll free before digging. Driver does not carry cash. Some of the trademarks mentioned in this product appear for identification purposes only. Record additional transactions on back of previous stub. Decision of judges is final.
10-17-07, 09:17 PM
#18
Or could it be that some owners are just pickier than others?
To be honest, I did hear some wind noise coming from the front windows (not the high-pitched noise cause by the side mirrors). I never noticed this in my '04 430. Fortunately, I sold it to a friend and we took a ride last weekend along the same highway that I drive to work on every day. Got up to 80 mph. Listening intently from the passenger seat, I could indeed hear the same type of wind noise as on the 460, it was just much softer... or was it? The most striking thing that I realized was that my conversation with my friend was much lounder than conversations in the 460. In the 460, I can hold a perfectly clear conversation with the passenger while speaking in a very low tone. In the 430, you have to speak in a normal volume. I always thought the 430 was a quiet car, and it is, but the 460 really is that much quieter. It got even quieter after the laminated window TSIB was installed.
So Lexus is really correct when they say that you notice the wind noise more because the cabin is that much more quiet. It's true. I would make the following analogy: When you're at home watching TV or puttering around the house, you may notice that your next door neighbor has his stero on, but it isn't really bothersome. But if you're reading a book in silence or in bed trying to sleep, it drives you up the wall.
Lexus has almost put themselves in a lose-lose situation here by building such a car with such a quiet cabin. They have come to realize that by making the car so quiet, it demands that outside noises be minimized as well, so they are coming out with various TSIBs to try and address that, but from my experience, about the only way they're going to be able to "eliminate" the wind noise enough to make some people happy, is to make the cabin noisier, or introduce a noice cancellation feature like you find in Bose headphones. Of course, both of those solutions are just making the cabin noisier in order to mask other noise.
To call this a design flaw or a return/arbitration type problem is, in my opinion, not only inaccurate, but an injustice. This is a great car, albeit with some first model year issues, but superior to anything else in it's price range.
My 2 cents.
460 SWB, 25,000 miles (Delivered Dec 26)
To be honest, I did hear some wind noise coming from the front windows (not the high-pitched noise cause by the side mirrors). I never noticed this in my '04 430. Fortunately, I sold it to a friend and we took a ride last weekend along the same highway that I drive to work on every day. Got up to 80 mph. Listening intently from the passenger seat, I could indeed hear the same type of wind noise as on the 460, it was just much softer... or was it? The most striking thing that I realized was that my conversation with my friend was much lounder than conversations in the 460. In the 460, I can hold a perfectly clear conversation with the passenger while speaking in a very low tone. In the 430, you have to speak in a normal volume. I always thought the 430 was a quiet car, and it is, but the 460 really is that much quieter. It got even quieter after the laminated window TSIB was installed.
So Lexus is really correct when they say that you notice the wind noise more because the cabin is that much more quiet. It's true. I would make the following analogy: When you're at home watching TV or puttering around the house, you may notice that your next door neighbor has his stero on, but it isn't really bothersome. But if you're reading a book in silence or in bed trying to sleep, it drives you up the wall.
Lexus has almost put themselves in a lose-lose situation here by building such a car with such a quiet cabin. They have come to realize that by making the car so quiet, it demands that outside noises be minimized as well, so they are coming out with various TSIBs to try and address that, but from my experience, about the only way they're going to be able to "eliminate" the wind noise enough to make some people happy, is to make the cabin noisier, or introduce a noice cancellation feature like you find in Bose headphones. Of course, both of those solutions are just making the cabin noisier in order to mask other noise.
To call this a design flaw or a return/arbitration type problem is, in my opinion, not only inaccurate, but an injustice. This is a great car, albeit with some first model year issues, but superior to anything else in it's price range.
My 2 cents.
460 SWB, 25,000 miles (Delivered Dec 26)
Let me first say that I have no idea how bad the wind noise is for some of the posters complaining on this message board. I REALLY would like an opportunity to ride in the car of one of the message board members who are having problems just to hear for myself what the volume of wind noise is. I don't know...maybe it really is as loud as a 747 at take off
To add to what you stated in your previous post...I really do think that Lexus has created a problem here that is a result of significantly lower overall noise levels in the driving cabin. When you eliminate so much of the noise traditionally heard in the driving cabin, it's can become pretty easy to pick up on a single source of noise that is still present.
What may be even more important, is that since the overall noise floor is so much lower, you can DIRECTIONALLY locate the remaining noise much more easily. And, it just so happens that it is coming from right next to the left side of the drivers head (window). As a result, it sticks out like a sore thumb
Now, if this is indeed the case, it doesn't make the problem any less relevant to those suffering from its effect. In the end, it's still a very irritating problem and Lexus is going to have to address it to keep a certain percentage of future owners happy who are locking in on the sound.
I've posted before that my car is dead quiet, and I drive the SWB. I don't know...maybe my hearing is getting bad.
10-17-07, 09:33 PM
#19
Pole Position
My car has an open issue that rippled from the wind noise repair. My seat memory system keeps crapping out, and it's been in the shop once which seemed to cure the problem. However, it failed again today. My dealer has been extremely responsive, and has ordered a new module to be installed in early November. Not a big deal for me, but it might annoy some other **** retentive types. This car is such a dream come true, I enjoy every moment in it, not unlike my wife.
Yes, I enjoy every moment in her too...
10-18-07, 01:04 AM
#20
Driver
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I would agree that wind gusts can be heard better in a quiet environment. But the wind noise in question is actually a loud high-pitch whistle. If you hear it once, you'll know there is a problem. No way it can be masked by any kind of normal road noise present in lesser cars. My car only gets it occasionally, so I am not doing anything about it.
10-18-07, 04:53 AM
#21
Pole Position
If it's any help, my car has been quiet. But the other night I was out in the rain and it seemed that I could hear the rain noise more noticibly than with my LS430. Not enough to be a problem for me, really (I don't think). But just maybe it has to do with moisture, humidity etc on the window seal?
I really don't know but the prior posts have been excellent and it got me to think about my rain experience. Maybe this observation will help Lexus get to the bottom of the problem.
I really don't know but the prior posts have been excellent and it got me to think about my rain experience. Maybe this observation will help Lexus get to the bottom of the problem.
10-18-07, 07:07 AM
#22
Pole Position
Also, if the problem is the mirror/puddle light, perhaps electronically pulling in the mirrors while driving will shed further light on the problem.
10-18-07, 07:59 AM
#23
I would agree that wind gusts can be heard better in a quiet environment. But the wind noise in question is actually a loud high-pitch whistle. If you hear it once, you'll know there is a problem. No way it can be masked by any kind of normal road noise present in lesser cars. My car only gets it occasionally, so I am not doing anything about it.
There must be some variable at play during the manufacturing process that is causing this on some vehicles. I really don't believe this is a "design" problem, because if it were, you should have this problem universally on all cars.
I still suspect there is a segment of owners who are "locking in" on natural wind noise. However, if we're talking about a wistling sound, there clearly is a problem.
10-18-07, 08:17 AM
#24
Lexus Test Driver
As some of you may remember I had stated I would wait for the 2008 models to come out to see if the wind noise issue was resolved before buying a BMW. I’m sad to say on the two I test drove (a 2008 460 and a 460L) the wind noise was just a bad as on the 2007. Even the salesman was very disappointed because the issue at hand has not been corrected and that sales have been below standard for the LS.
He also made the comment that several people during test drives have remarked the wind noise or overall sound/noise in the cockpit was not to Lexus standard. When I told him I was a 15 year loyal owner of at least 7 Lexus cars he was very sad to hear I was considering A BMW 750.
To my surprise he called me a few hours later saying he talk to a Lexus rep and told me to hold off a few months. Not sure what he was implying but that’s what he said.
To be honest I really want a Lexus because of the obvious reasons, they are/were #1 in my book but I just can’t drive a car that sounds like a wind tunnel when driving over 60 MPH. At this point I’m not sure what to do. My GS is two years old and I’ve never owned a car longer. Please lord, give Lexus the power to fix this problem, I really don’t want a bimmer sitting in my garage.
Thanks for allowing me to vent.
He also made the comment that several people during test drives have remarked the wind noise or overall sound/noise in the cockpit was not to Lexus standard. When I told him I was a 15 year loyal owner of at least 7 Lexus cars he was very sad to hear I was considering A BMW 750.
To my surprise he called me a few hours later saying he talk to a Lexus rep and told me to hold off a few months. Not sure what he was implying but that’s what he said.
To be honest I really want a Lexus because of the obvious reasons, they are/were #1 in my book but I just can’t drive a car that sounds like a wind tunnel when driving over 60 MPH. At this point I’m not sure what to do. My GS is two years old and I’ve never owned a car longer. Please lord, give Lexus the power to fix this problem, I really don’t want a bimmer sitting in my garage.
Thanks for allowing me to vent.
I don't know what your salesman meant by his request that you hold off a few months. It might be worth following up and questioning him a little more about his point.
Good luck nonetheless!
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