Warren Brown's Critique of the 600hL
09-27-07, 08:03 AM
#1
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Warren Brown's Critique of the 600hL
Harsh, but he makes a good point.
High-End Hybrids That Run on Contradictions
By Warren Brown
Sunday, September 23, 2007; Page G02
DETROIT
I 've long contended that much of the to-do about gas-electric hybrid vehicles is little more than marketing hype masquerading as environmental concern.
My often-stated belief has made me the demon poster child for those hybrid devotees who can tolerate no criticism of their beloved technology, who view all critics of that technology, including critics of the mostly mindless way in which it has been embraced by many politicians and media representatives, as being hopelessly entrapped in the evil of an automobile industry determined to drain the world of its last drop of oil and rob it of its final breath of clean air.
I have countered, as I do so again -- right here, right now -- that I am not against and have never been against gas-electric hybrids per se. But I am greatly troubled by their hype, by their portrayal as the sure-fix to end our sickening addiction to oil, by the tendency of policymakers in all branches of government to draft legislation and regulations favoring gas-electric hybrids, and by the less-than-due-diligence way in which municipalities nationwide are spending taxpayers' money to equip their various vehicle fleets with gas-electrics.
Also, it bothers me that so many of us are willing to avoid candid discussions about the potential environmental downsides of gas-electric hybrid technology. For example, exactly how will we dispose of all of those spent nickel-metal hydride batteries in current hybrid cars and trucks? If we recycle those batteries, exactly how will we do it? Is it possible to recycle exhausted batteries without an attached energy cost? What will be that cost? And, by the way, what is the total production-distribution-end disposal energy cost of gas-electric hybrid technology versus that of anything else?
We tend to shove aside those issues, to play them down, to treat them with a "don't-worry-be-happy" mentality. All of the people selling or otherwise promoting gas-electric hybrid vehicles as the only "next-best thing" seem to like it that way.
I'll say it again: It's a bunch of baloney. Anyone doubting that has only to examine Exhibit No. 1 in defense of my argument: It's the 2008, 438-hp, nearly $112,000, 20-mpg-city, barely 22-mpg-highway, five-liter-V-8, gas-electric hybrid Lexus LS 600h L super-luxury sedan.
Lexus is billing it as the most politically correct car for the wealthy. That's "wealthy," as opposed to affluent. "Wealthy" people are rich enough to have money without having to work for it. "Affluent" people still rely on paychecks, albeit big ones.
The point is that the gas-electric technology in the LS 600h L has more to do with marketing than with oil conservation or reducing tailpipe pollution. Other cars in the Lexus group -- consider the Lexus Ls 460 L -- are just as luxurious, more fuel-efficient, quicker off the throttle, and just as clean in terms of overall tailpipe pollutants. Ditto luxury models from Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Lincoln and Mercedes-Benz.
But those cars don't, at the moment, come with gas-electric hybrid technology. As a result, they are regarded as less than "green."
How silly is this? Imagine: There goes a working-class stiff in a little Chevrolet Aveo with a traditional gasoline engine that gets 30 mpg or more and that meets the nation's toughest clean-air standards. But because she is not driving a gas-electric car, she must -- in many metropolitan areas nationwide -- use the congested regular traffic lanes commuting to and from work.
But there goes the owner of the company that employs her. The boss can afford the $112,000 price tag of a 2008 Lexus LS 600h L super-luxury sedan. Never mind that it gets substantially worse mileage than the Chevrolet Aveo. Never mind that its overall energy costs -- production, distribution, end disposal -- are measurably higher. Never mind that it is, for purposes of this argument, only carrying its driver. Because it is a gas-electric hybrid, in many urban areas, it gets to run in the High Occupancy Vehicle lane with only the driver inside.
Ah, and never mind that the electric portion -- the gasoline-saving part -- does its best work in congested city traffic and hardly works at all on the highway, meaning that allowing the hybrid luxury car to run freely in the HOV lane defeats the design intention of its own technology as that of the HOV lane, which is meant to reduce traffic congestion by encouraging carpooling.
That makes sense? That's fair? That's an intelligent energy policy?
No way.
It's downright stupid. It is what happens when we elevate one alternative-fuel, alternative-propulsion technology above all others. It is what happens when we hunt for political convenience in an attempt to avoid drafting a sensible, comprehensive, national energy policy that will require considerable sacrifice from all players -- consumers, corporations, and politicians.
It is what happens when science and technology yield to hype and marketing.
It is baloney.
High-End Hybrids That Run on Contradictions
By Warren Brown
Sunday, September 23, 2007; Page G02
DETROIT
I 've long contended that much of the to-do about gas-electric hybrid vehicles is little more than marketing hype masquerading as environmental concern.
My often-stated belief has made me the demon poster child for those hybrid devotees who can tolerate no criticism of their beloved technology, who view all critics of that technology, including critics of the mostly mindless way in which it has been embraced by many politicians and media representatives, as being hopelessly entrapped in the evil of an automobile industry determined to drain the world of its last drop of oil and rob it of its final breath of clean air.
I have countered, as I do so again -- right here, right now -- that I am not against and have never been against gas-electric hybrids per se. But I am greatly troubled by their hype, by their portrayal as the sure-fix to end our sickening addiction to oil, by the tendency of policymakers in all branches of government to draft legislation and regulations favoring gas-electric hybrids, and by the less-than-due-diligence way in which municipalities nationwide are spending taxpayers' money to equip their various vehicle fleets with gas-electrics.
Also, it bothers me that so many of us are willing to avoid candid discussions about the potential environmental downsides of gas-electric hybrid technology. For example, exactly how will we dispose of all of those spent nickel-metal hydride batteries in current hybrid cars and trucks? If we recycle those batteries, exactly how will we do it? Is it possible to recycle exhausted batteries without an attached energy cost? What will be that cost? And, by the way, what is the total production-distribution-end disposal energy cost of gas-electric hybrid technology versus that of anything else?
We tend to shove aside those issues, to play them down, to treat them with a "don't-worry-be-happy" mentality. All of the people selling or otherwise promoting gas-electric hybrid vehicles as the only "next-best thing" seem to like it that way.
I'll say it again: It's a bunch of baloney. Anyone doubting that has only to examine Exhibit No. 1 in defense of my argument: It's the 2008, 438-hp, nearly $112,000, 20-mpg-city, barely 22-mpg-highway, five-liter-V-8, gas-electric hybrid Lexus LS 600h L super-luxury sedan.
Lexus is billing it as the most politically correct car for the wealthy. That's "wealthy," as opposed to affluent. "Wealthy" people are rich enough to have money without having to work for it. "Affluent" people still rely on paychecks, albeit big ones.
The point is that the gas-electric technology in the LS 600h L has more to do with marketing than with oil conservation or reducing tailpipe pollution. Other cars in the Lexus group -- consider the Lexus Ls 460 L -- are just as luxurious, more fuel-efficient, quicker off the throttle, and just as clean in terms of overall tailpipe pollutants. Ditto luxury models from Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Lincoln and Mercedes-Benz.
But those cars don't, at the moment, come with gas-electric hybrid technology. As a result, they are regarded as less than "green."
How silly is this? Imagine: There goes a working-class stiff in a little Chevrolet Aveo with a traditional gasoline engine that gets 30 mpg or more and that meets the nation's toughest clean-air standards. But because she is not driving a gas-electric car, she must -- in many metropolitan areas nationwide -- use the congested regular traffic lanes commuting to and from work.
But there goes the owner of the company that employs her. The boss can afford the $112,000 price tag of a 2008 Lexus LS 600h L super-luxury sedan. Never mind that it gets substantially worse mileage than the Chevrolet Aveo. Never mind that its overall energy costs -- production, distribution, end disposal -- are measurably higher. Never mind that it is, for purposes of this argument, only carrying its driver. Because it is a gas-electric hybrid, in many urban areas, it gets to run in the High Occupancy Vehicle lane with only the driver inside.
Ah, and never mind that the electric portion -- the gasoline-saving part -- does its best work in congested city traffic and hardly works at all on the highway, meaning that allowing the hybrid luxury car to run freely in the HOV lane defeats the design intention of its own technology as that of the HOV lane, which is meant to reduce traffic congestion by encouraging carpooling.
That makes sense? That's fair? That's an intelligent energy policy?
No way.
It's downright stupid. It is what happens when we elevate one alternative-fuel, alternative-propulsion technology above all others. It is what happens when we hunt for political convenience in an attempt to avoid drafting a sensible, comprehensive, national energy policy that will require considerable sacrifice from all players -- consumers, corporations, and politicians.
It is what happens when science and technology yield to hype and marketing.
It is baloney.
09-27-07, 10:27 AM
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not sure if im just biased but..errr he sounds like a jackass to me.
after all these years, with all this supposed hype and advertising, people still dont get the idea of lexus hybrids. nobody is claiming to save the earth, it says it right there on the lexus hybrid quote "gives more to the driver, takes less from the world". that makes sense to me...more performance without sacrificing gas and emissions.
as for the boss who can use the HOV lanes...thats not entirely true. In California, only 3 cars can have 1 person in them while still use the 3 person carpool lane, and none of those three are lexus models. they are the toyota prius, civic hybrid, and the honda insight.
oh and since he used the LS600hl in one sentence...im assuming he has not driven the car nor is not a car enthusiast
after all these years, with all this supposed hype and advertising, people still dont get the idea of lexus hybrids. nobody is claiming to save the earth, it says it right there on the lexus hybrid quote "gives more to the driver, takes less from the world". that makes sense to me...more performance without sacrificing gas and emissions.
as for the boss who can use the HOV lanes...thats not entirely true. In California, only 3 cars can have 1 person in them while still use the 3 person carpool lane, and none of those three are lexus models. they are the toyota prius, civic hybrid, and the honda insight.
oh and since he used the LS600hl in one sentence...im assuming he has not driven the car nor is not a car enthusiast
Last edited by RXSF; 09-27-07 at 10:38 AM.
09-27-07, 11:01 AM
#3
i could be biased too, but can't really find myself agree with what and how he thinks. just reads to me that he's trying to pick a fight out of nowhere. it's just a way for lexus to get performance and gas mileage, take it or leave it. he can come out with his own way for all i care
09-27-07, 11:53 AM
#5
Let's say he doesn't get the LS 430 either:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...122901017.html
I think using the LS 600h L to critique all hybrids is a red herring. Different hybrids, different goals.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...122901017.html
I think using the LS 600h L to critique all hybrids is a red herring. Different hybrids, different goals.
09-27-07, 12:46 PM
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A Tesla was tempting to me. With my driving habits, a 100mile range car would be perfectly fine for 99% of my driving.
So while I'm not happy about him blasting my car, I do understand where he's coming from. But don't shoot Toyota. They are producing what people want to buy. Just like all the others (except the Americans who seem to build cars no one wants to buy.)
09-27-07, 01:21 PM
#7
lol, to me, we need american manufacturers coz' we need rental cars supply 
anyway, jokes aside, very good point on the lexus. to me, toyota as a whole is taking the hybrid approach is two very different ways, smartly. on toyota side, they made hybrids with green and gas mileage in mind. the camry, the prius. they don't have the speed, they have incredible gas mileage
on the other hand, instead of just growing the engine for power, toyota smartly use the hybrid technology to gain power. the gs450h, rx400h, and ls600hl, they don't really "save" gas, but for about the same gas mileage, you get quite a bit more power.
i thought it's just simple and clear as well. some people they don't see
anyway, jokes aside, very good point on the lexus. to me, toyota as a whole is taking the hybrid approach is two very different ways, smartly. on toyota side, they made hybrids with green and gas mileage in mind. the camry, the prius. they don't have the speed, they have incredible gas mileage
on the other hand, instead of just growing the engine for power, toyota smartly use the hybrid technology to gain power. the gs450h, rx400h, and ls600hl, they don't really "save" gas, but for about the same gas mileage, you get quite a bit more power.
i thought it's just simple and clear as well. some people they don't see
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09-27-07, 01:30 PM
#9
He seemed to like the SC 430:
http://research.cars.com/go/crp/rese...=&aff=national
"The SC430 was done right." and it is "a fine automobile."
I think the really ridiculous review of the SC 430 that stands out for being silly is the one from TTAC; they also did a weird review on the LS 460 but then came back with a more positive one on the 460 L IIRC.
http://research.cars.com/go/crp/rese...=&aff=national
"The SC430 was done right." and it is "a fine automobile."
I think the really ridiculous review of the SC 430 that stands out for being silly is the one from TTAC; they also did a weird review on the LS 460 but then came back with a more positive one on the 460 L IIRC.
09-27-07, 02:19 PM
#11
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Specifically the LS460L Touring Package, IIRC, he said he is pleasantly surprised by how the Touring model drives.
09-27-07, 02:21 PM
#12
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lol...that is the first time ive read a positive lexus review from TTAC. as far as im concerned, every author on that site can be labeled jackasses next to warren brown
09-27-07, 03:15 PM
#13
....exactly how will we dispose of all of those spent nickel-metal hydride batteries in current hybrid cars and trucks? If we recycle those batteries, exactly how will we do it? Is it possible to recycle exhausted batteries without an attached energy cost? What will be that cost? And, by the way, what is the total production-distribution-end disposal energy cost of gas-electric hybrid technology versus that of anything else?
He's long on questions and short on answers. Isn't he supposed to be the reporter?
He's long on questions and short on answers. Isn't he supposed to be the reporter?
09-27-07, 03:59 PM
#14
I guess Mr Brown has not seen the fuel economy of the 760 or the S600, the 600hl might make a bit more sense. He must have had one to many on his way home in the Aveo before he wrote the article.