Dan Neil on the LS460
08-31-06, 10:23 AM
#61
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This bias is really nothing new to Japanese manufacturers as a whole. The problem for me is the car media at large here in the US is very subjective and very set in their ways. Much like movie critics these people make their living off reviewing things in their particular area of "expertise". This leads to alot of cynical wordplay and snobby rhetoric. But like with the movies, what reviewers tell you you should find appealing should never replace your own personal opinions. Often the worst reviewed movies will provide to be the most entertaining. With the LS460 this will probably be the case as well. Despite what the experts say, people will buy and enjoy this vehicle and have no qualms about it, much like others have for the last 15+ years that Lexus has been available. I love my LS430 despite it all, and I would love to get my hands on an LS460.
08-31-06, 10:37 AM
#62
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You're right in tat is is most prevalent in the Luxury segment but the sentiment also runs rampant in the Truck market as well. The econo boxes are more immune to these sorts of reactions due to their price point which eliminates most of the european manufacturers. But even in this segment the feelings of VW owners towards other brands is not unknown.
To get back up on my soapbox for a moment, I am by no means redirecting criticism back towards the european cars. In fact I rather enjoy many offerings from those companies. I just find that truely objective reviews are lacking everywhere in the media and in truth impossible. For example I believe that the Pontiac Aztec and the Current BMW 7 series are the most hideous cars to come into exsistence in some time, but people are buying them.
To get back up on my soapbox for a moment, I am by no means redirecting criticism back towards the european cars. In fact I rather enjoy many offerings from those companies. I just find that truely objective reviews are lacking everywhere in the media and in truth impossible. For example I believe that the Pontiac Aztec and the Current BMW 7 series are the most hideous cars to come into exsistence in some time, but people are buying them.
08-31-06, 01:49 PM
#63
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08-31-06, 03:54 PM
#65
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Thank you Leslie for bringing sanity back to this thread. Yes, while this is ClubLexus, I'm disappointed with the lack of maturity.. he reviews cars for a living, if someone does not like his opinion, fair enough.. but calling him "gay" and the such is showing a serious lack of respect.
Disagree with his opinions, but personal attacks are downright pitiful.
Disagree with his opinions, but personal attacks are downright pitiful.
What continually boggles my mind is that, yes, this is ClubLexus, yet there are an alarming number of BMW fans on these boards, and many of them that are quite immature.
Quite sad really to see so many Lexus haters and BMW lovers on a Lexus Club website
Speaking of the article, he passes off some of his opinions as if they are facts, and at least in this article, shows an obvious hate towards the LS, talking about it's technology and world firsts as negatives.
Yes, while the prestige, emotional appeal, and "soul" of the new LS are debatable topics, all reviews that I have seen have praised the new technology on the LS, and have never thought of it as a negative.
I mean Dan Neil even mentions 11 airbags as being a bad thing!
08-31-06, 04:10 PM
#66
I sent my letter to Mr. Neil and his editor, regarding the inaccuracies of the prestige commentary. I have received no reply as of yet; I was thinking also to write to the LA Times readers comment section which is for corrections of factual errors, etc. Although his statement is not factually incorrect, he cherry-picks the results to give a very misleading impression. But I don't know if it's worth pursuing it further.
The guys on the edmunds boards, even the Lexus critics, have panned the article as a hack job, because it has very little substantive information, and its conclusions are highly biased.
But IMO it's not all that worth getting too worked up over one review, I much prefer to read the Motor Trend review, simply because it offers concrete details of the car and better-supported commentary. I have read many of Dan Neil's columns, Highway 1 section has given the GS 450h, IS 350, and S-class very positive reviews. I wouldn't mind a negative review, but it should be well-supported and reasoned, not replete with half-truths and unsupported statements.
But let's not give this one article more attention than it deserves.
The guys on the edmunds boards, even the Lexus critics, have panned the article as a hack job, because it has very little substantive information, and its conclusions are highly biased.
But IMO it's not all that worth getting too worked up over one review, I much prefer to read the Motor Trend review, simply because it offers concrete details of the car and better-supported commentary. I have read many of Dan Neil's columns, Highway 1 section has given the GS 450h, IS 350, and S-class very positive reviews. I wouldn't mind a negative review, but it should be well-supported and reasoned, not replete with half-truths and unsupported statements.
But let's not give this one article more attention than it deserves.
08-31-06, 04:15 PM
#67
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I'm not sure what you are reading, or what you prefer, but you really REALLY don't like the L.A. Times for whatever reasons
I read the Times daily, enjoy their articles and Highway 1 section. I didn't like this auto article in particular...ok...you can't win them all, right? I get my news fix in the morning and afternoon commutes through KCRW/NPR and at lunch with the Times (Business, Front Page, California, Opinion). I'm happy to continue giving them my monetary support.
The LS will meet Toyota's sales targets, just like most of their other models.
Last edited by MikeFD3S; 08-31-06 at 04:19 PM.
08-31-06, 05:53 PM
#68
MikeFD3S -- I agree with Big Jimm about the LA Times. I think that alot of their writers seem to have a bias that makes their articles look borderline professional and with very little credibility.
For example, I am a LA Lakers fan. The LA Times, which you would think covers the Lakers well, does it's part to trash their home team with questionable and (maybe even) non existant sources. All of their articles have an undenying bias against their best player. The LA Times does it's part in portraying the Lakers to the national media as one of the least favorable teams in sports. Which other local paper trashes on it's own as much as the LA Times? And they're doing this with little to no credible source citiations. It's all personal opinions, and it's being written as fact.
For example, I am a LA Lakers fan. The LA Times, which you would think covers the Lakers well, does it's part to trash their home team with questionable and (maybe even) non existant sources. All of their articles have an undenying bias against their best player. The LA Times does it's part in portraying the Lakers to the national media as one of the least favorable teams in sports. Which other local paper trashes on it's own as much as the LA Times? And they're doing this with little to no credible source citiations. It's all personal opinions, and it's being written as fact.
08-31-06, 06:25 PM
#69
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The only time I remember bias was several years ago when they published an article against Schwarzenneger a few days before the election polls. They received so much flak regarding that article that I noticed several changes began occuring within the paper to ensure that a high amount of objectivity is maintained with their journalism. During that time there was a lot of scandal going on with the press, but that's for another thread.
Outside of the Opinion articles from Steve Lopez et al, I never really noticed any consistent biases. Outside of occasionally checking how the Angels are doing, I never regularly read the Sports pages or sports related articles so I couldn't honestly comment about anti-Laker rhetoric. They're a team many love to hate, but again, discussion for another thread.
Dan's articles are usually very enjoyable reads, but this one seemed put together rather quickly, even though Highway 1 only comes out once a week. I have a feeling the first thing he did after receiving the car was to test the seemingly lethargic park assist feature, which was probably the deal breaker for him. I question if he was prepped on how to properly use the system. It can't be any more complicated than BMW's horrid I-Drive system.
Outside of the Opinion articles from Steve Lopez et al, I never really noticed any consistent biases. Outside of occasionally checking how the Angels are doing, I never regularly read the Sports pages or sports related articles so I couldn't honestly comment about anti-Laker rhetoric. They're a team many love to hate, but again, discussion for another thread.
Dan's articles are usually very enjoyable reads, but this one seemed put together rather quickly, even though Highway 1 only comes out once a week. I have a feeling the first thing he did after receiving the car was to test the seemingly lethargic park assist feature, which was probably the deal breaker for him. I question if he was prepped on how to properly use the system. It can't be any more complicated than BMW's horrid I-Drive system.
08-31-06, 08:16 PM
#70
Mr. Neil replied to my letter today, in it he gave a mea culpa for not checking the Billboard Top 20 and Top 50 mentions more closely. He also said he would look into the Luxury Institute study on prestigious cars for future reference.
He also gave further explanations for why he stated what he did about the Lexus brand in general and the LS. To paraphrase, he felt that Lexus did not have old-world heritage, and also was known for being a volume and cut-rate seller, which hurts its prestige image. He also did not like the LS interior and driving dynamics, and felt that its array of technological innovations was gimmicky.
I'm not sure if I need permission to share the contents of my e-mail. Perhaps I should regard it as privileged communication and even delete this summary. Maybe I will reply further to him. I don't think they will publish a retraction, although I felt a correction would have been appropriate. He does indicate he will include the information I forwarded him in future Lexus articles...
He also gave further explanations for why he stated what he did about the Lexus brand in general and the LS. To paraphrase, he felt that Lexus did not have old-world heritage, and also was known for being a volume and cut-rate seller, which hurts its prestige image. He also did not like the LS interior and driving dynamics, and felt that its array of technological innovations was gimmicky.
I'm not sure if I need permission to share the contents of my e-mail. Perhaps I should regard it as privileged communication and even delete this summary. Maybe I will reply further to him. I don't think they will publish a retraction, although I felt a correction would have been appropriate. He does indicate he will include the information I forwarded him in future Lexus articles...
Last edited by encore888; 08-31-06 at 08:26 PM.
08-31-06, 09:24 PM
#71
Reading the intensity of some of these emails, I might think some of you were attorneys attempting to defend your client against a defamation lawsuit.
Why does it matter that one writer had some negative things to say about a car? Is he insulting you because you are a consumer of that car? Everyone has their right to opinions even if they are not consistent with yours.
I love my LS430 and will likely buy an LS460 in the near future. However, I do agree with his comments about the car not having quite the emotional appeal of the MB and BMW cars. In particular, Lexus has not reached MB levels of design. Look at the layout of the interior on the LS460 compared to the European, sleek design of the 2007 S and CL Class. MB just has a more sleek and sexy design, both inside and out. Regardless, their build quality has proven to be inferior to Lexus, and no matter how nice it looks I would never buy one.
All that being said, I have no need to pick a fight with consumers of MB and BMW cars. Everyone has the right to choose what they like best. Heck, if everyone stopped buying them and only bought Lexus vehicles, we would see prices go up accordingly. It's the competition that keeps the prices in line, and in spite of the continuous poor build quality of the German cars, their snob appeal has forced Lexus pricing to be competitive, which ultimately benefits all of us who purchased Lexus vehicles in the first place.
Why does it matter that one writer had some negative things to say about a car? Is he insulting you because you are a consumer of that car? Everyone has their right to opinions even if they are not consistent with yours.
I love my LS430 and will likely buy an LS460 in the near future. However, I do agree with his comments about the car not having quite the emotional appeal of the MB and BMW cars. In particular, Lexus has not reached MB levels of design. Look at the layout of the interior on the LS460 compared to the European, sleek design of the 2007 S and CL Class. MB just has a more sleek and sexy design, both inside and out. Regardless, their build quality has proven to be inferior to Lexus, and no matter how nice it looks I would never buy one.
All that being said, I have no need to pick a fight with consumers of MB and BMW cars. Everyone has the right to choose what they like best. Heck, if everyone stopped buying them and only bought Lexus vehicles, we would see prices go up accordingly. It's the competition that keeps the prices in line, and in spite of the continuous poor build quality of the German cars, their snob appeal has forced Lexus pricing to be competitive, which ultimately benefits all of us who purchased Lexus vehicles in the first place.
08-31-06, 09:34 PM
#72
My point was, that the article had misinformation in it, in addition to the subjective opinions.
In his email he admitted only checking 2005 data, and not examining 2003 and 2004.
His comments have some valid points, but I disagree on the design issue and his errors have punctured his argument on the prestige one (although in his e-mail he elaborated on that). I find the LS 460 design much more appealing than the S-class (at least in the photos). Furthermore, having sat inside the S-class, I feel that the LS interior will be more intuitive and comfortable. Their design and ergonomics remain inferior, particularly with the use of a **** vs. touchscreen. There are those issues in addition to the lack of build quality and reliability.
The New LS will probably have a competitive price, but the overall goal seems to be encroaching parity with the Germans, either on price and prestige or in global sales dominance. The path that this takes is where the sparks fly.
Does anyone know about posting e-mails? I think the full format of his response will be illuminating.
In his email he admitted only checking 2005 data, and not examining 2003 and 2004.
His comments have some valid points, but I disagree on the design issue and his errors have punctured his argument on the prestige one (although in his e-mail he elaborated on that). I find the LS 460 design much more appealing than the S-class (at least in the photos). Furthermore, having sat inside the S-class, I feel that the LS interior will be more intuitive and comfortable. Their design and ergonomics remain inferior, particularly with the use of a **** vs. touchscreen. There are those issues in addition to the lack of build quality and reliability.
The New LS will probably have a competitive price, but the overall goal seems to be encroaching parity with the Germans, either on price and prestige or in global sales dominance. The path that this takes is where the sparks fly.
Does anyone know about posting e-mails? I think the full format of his response will be illuminating.
08-31-06, 09:40 PM
#73
Think of it this way.
The LS460 is like a expensive full of gadget home appliance. It's like having built in IPTV fridge. Will you get excited over a fridge?
You can praise the technology all you want. But its still a car that is meant to be driven by the driver. Lexus has mover further and further away from getting driver involved.
Lexus's idea car would be a robotic car that takes driver away from every possible experience. Which why lexus has simply lost it. Someone needs to tell lexus that high technology does not mean you remove the driver from the driving experience.
The LS460 is like a expensive full of gadget home appliance. It's like having built in IPTV fridge. Will you get excited over a fridge?
You can praise the technology all you want. But its still a car that is meant to be driven by the driver. Lexus has mover further and further away from getting driver involved.
Lexus's idea car would be a robotic car that takes driver away from every possible experience. Which why lexus has simply lost it. Someone needs to tell lexus that high technology does not mean you remove the driver from the driving experience.
08-31-06, 09:43 PM
#74
Excuse me, but Motor Trend and others have noted that the new LS makes the driver more connected to the road than any other previous LS. It is more fun to drive than any other LS ever made. Now that perhaps isn't saying much to enthusiasts, but there are big luxo flagships we're talking about. Even the new S-class is described as being 'soothing' and 'relaxing.' If you want pure driving pleasure, get a Porsche.
So does anyone have an opinion re: the mea culpa over the 2005 data citation?
So does anyone have an opinion re: the mea culpa over the 2005 data citation?
09-01-06, 01:07 AM
#75
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I have NEVER owned a Lexus. So, I'm not an old time Lexus man being offended. My cars have been MBs, Cadillacs, Town Cars, etc. (And, of course, my new Corvette.) I AM going to buy a 460L, though, as soon as I can get one. I like its looks, in and out. And, I LOVE the abundance of new technology. (Even though I definitely don't need help parking.)
I resent this "artificial sophisticate" writer inferring that anyone who likes new high tech electronics is a moron or not a "real" driver. I've driven 18 wheelers, dozers, cranes, backhoes and Harley Davidsons (of which I still have one.) I AM an excellent driver .. since 12.
As an OLD pilot (75) I've also owned several airplanes. A few have had very sophisticated electronics. Neil's parallel to a planes' electronics would be that a "good" pilot wouldn't need them .. and, by using them he wouldn't be able to "feel the plane."
So, Neil, I don't HAVE to justify the "new gimmicks" but I love them and WANT them! There may be a few thousand others who feel the same way.
THANK YOU, Lexus, for making these new tech items available to us! My fingers are itching to push those new buttons!
Big Jimm
So. Fla.