Test Drive 08 LS vs ES
03-22-17, 11:36 PM
#1
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Test Drive 08 LS vs ES
Today I took an 08 LS 460 and an 08 ES 350 out for a test drive and drew a few comparisons.
I had driven an ES before (years ago) and this one was more or less what I had expected. I expected the LS to be better, and it was in a lot of areas. The interior of the LS looks/feels so much better; I was almost ashamed of the ES interior, which is objectively fine. The LS is quieter I could hear more road noise than I expected, but still much less than I did in the ES. The performance of the LS is better; though the ES wasn't bad. The rear seats were nicer in the LS and there was more leg room, but both were at quite comfy. Unfortunately, it fell short in a couple areas. The ride was very comparable between the two; I'd actually say the ES was smoother. The driver's seat wasn't as comfortable. It's big, ventilated and wrapped in nice, supple leather, but it still wasn't particularly comfortable. After sitting in it for 20 minutes I came to the conclusion that the seat pan was too firm. I found the ES seat more comfortable despite having a smaller (though big enough), regular seat wrapped in more worn leather.
At this point it probably sounds like I meant to say I drove a GS and an ES, but it was definitely an LS. Isn't the LS supposed to be a modern land yacht with a bit of performance? It had plenty of performance IMO, but it's land-seaworthiness was very comparable to the much cheaper ES.
Is my assessment of the ride quality (with regards to smoothness and the ability to handle bumps) accurate to the models themselves, or was this just these two cars?
Is the LS seat pan supposed to be firmer? Does it have anything to do with the ventilated seats?
I had driven an ES before (years ago) and this one was more or less what I had expected. I expected the LS to be better, and it was in a lot of areas. The interior of the LS looks/feels so much better; I was almost ashamed of the ES interior, which is objectively fine. The LS is quieter I could hear more road noise than I expected, but still much less than I did in the ES. The performance of the LS is better; though the ES wasn't bad. The rear seats were nicer in the LS and there was more leg room, but both were at quite comfy. Unfortunately, it fell short in a couple areas. The ride was very comparable between the two; I'd actually say the ES was smoother. The driver's seat wasn't as comfortable. It's big, ventilated and wrapped in nice, supple leather, but it still wasn't particularly comfortable. After sitting in it for 20 minutes I came to the conclusion that the seat pan was too firm. I found the ES seat more comfortable despite having a smaller (though big enough), regular seat wrapped in more worn leather.
At this point it probably sounds like I meant to say I drove a GS and an ES, but it was definitely an LS. Isn't the LS supposed to be a modern land yacht with a bit of performance? It had plenty of performance IMO, but it's land-seaworthiness was very comparable to the much cheaper ES.
Is my assessment of the ride quality (with regards to smoothness and the ability to handle bumps) accurate to the models themselves, or was this just these two cars?
Is the LS seat pan supposed to be firmer? Does it have anything to do with the ventilated seats?
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vicpai (03-26-17)
03-23-17, 02:07 AM
#2
Pole Position
I'm really not an expert on seat pans, but I imagine you'd have to consider the fact that you were test driving two cars that were almost ten years old and probably both lived much different lives. Who knows who sat in those seats, how much they weighed and how often they got in and out of them? Because that will have some bearing on how those seats are going to feel. Ten years is a long time on a seat...it's comfort, it's appearance, etc.
As for the two cars, I really think there is no comparison, they are two different animals. The ES is a solid car, but it's basically a Toyota Camry V6 wrapped in something that looks a little better than a Camry...with leather, more sound proofing and electronics. That's about it. The LS is a unique platform with a V8.
The ride quality of the two cars also falls a bit into the category of the seats...it's a ten year old car...who knows what needs to be done? Are the shocks worn out? Are the control arms gone? I do find the suspension to be a bit more sprorty in the LS, it's more stiff than an ES. It handles pretty well for a big car. The ES is basically a Camry, standard McPherson strut front suspension. It depends on your preference...some people like the more aggressive suspension, some people like to float down the road. But neither car at ten years old and with however many miles they have, are functioning at an optimal level.
I like the ES, they are a nice front wheel drive car with a reliable V6, but you have to consider what that car is. It's not fast, it doesn't handle all that well, it's not overly luxurious...it's not something that competes with high end luxury brands/vehicles. But it's a nice reliable car. It's a nice value on the used car market for the most part, it's easy to maintain and it's a battle tested platform.
As for the two cars, I really think there is no comparison, they are two different animals. The ES is a solid car, but it's basically a Toyota Camry V6 wrapped in something that looks a little better than a Camry...with leather, more sound proofing and electronics. That's about it. The LS is a unique platform with a V8.
The ride quality of the two cars also falls a bit into the category of the seats...it's a ten year old car...who knows what needs to be done? Are the shocks worn out? Are the control arms gone? I do find the suspension to be a bit more sprorty in the LS, it's more stiff than an ES. It handles pretty well for a big car. The ES is basically a Camry, standard McPherson strut front suspension. It depends on your preference...some people like the more aggressive suspension, some people like to float down the road. But neither car at ten years old and with however many miles they have, are functioning at an optimal level.
I like the ES, they are a nice front wheel drive car with a reliable V6, but you have to consider what that car is. It's not fast, it doesn't handle all that well, it's not overly luxurious...it's not something that competes with high end luxury brands/vehicles. But it's a nice reliable car. It's a nice value on the used car market for the most part, it's easy to maintain and it's a battle tested platform.
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dlbuckls10 (03-23-17)
03-23-17, 06:08 AM
#3
I looked at a new ES last October before I got rid of my 07 LS. The ES is very nice by any standard but couldn't match the LS. The interior space appeared similar but couldn't compare in quality to the LS. And the performance just wasn't there (the engine was particularly harsh after the smoothness of the V8). Early LS cars had a seat cushion swap for the discomfort you describe; not sure if that would apply to the car you drove.
03-23-17, 08:31 AM
#5
Two different and older Lexus's. I've had many newer ES's as loaners and I wasn't impressed with the noise level and cheaper materials. I believe the cheaper Camry is better.
03-23-17, 10:49 AM
#6
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
It's the standard strut/spring. According to service records all 8 control arms were replaced ~10k miles ago.
Obviously they are older; I can't afford a new LS. I was specifically comparing the ride quality; I noted the LS was quieter and had a nicer looking/feeling interior except for the driver's seat. It surprised me the LS would be inferior in any way to the ES. The way some people on this forum talk about their LS you'd think it cured cancer.
03-23-17, 11:13 AM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
As was said before, driving two 10 year old examples of these cars doesn't tell you anything really about what the cars are like when comparing them new to new. The LS you drove likely had some sort of suspension wear issue, we don't know what kind of tires it had on it, etc.
I had a 2010 ES350 (same as an 08, refreshed model but just cosmetic changes) and I have a standard suspension LS460 now and theres no comparison in ride. The ES rides nice, but the LS is much smoother, quieter, more refined, more solid and stable feeling. When it comes to flat out "absorbing bumps" they may not be all that different, but the all around refinement and solidity of the LS vs the ES makes all the difference in how they feel out on the road. Driving down the road in the LS at 80MPH it feels almost like a hovercraft is the best description I can give you...totally detached from its wheels. The ES never feels that way, it always feels like a smooth and nice riding ordinary car. Does that description make sense?
In my comparison, both my ES and LS had the best riding tires I could buy at the time, tires aired properly, owned them both from new etc. I would never go back to an ES, I'd rather keep my older LS than trade it on a new ES.
I had a 2010 ES350 (same as an 08, refreshed model but just cosmetic changes) and I have a standard suspension LS460 now and theres no comparison in ride. The ES rides nice, but the LS is much smoother, quieter, more refined, more solid and stable feeling. When it comes to flat out "absorbing bumps" they may not be all that different, but the all around refinement and solidity of the LS vs the ES makes all the difference in how they feel out on the road. Driving down the road in the LS at 80MPH it feels almost like a hovercraft is the best description I can give you...totally detached from its wheels. The ES never feels that way, it always feels like a smooth and nice riding ordinary car. Does that description make sense?
In my comparison, both my ES and LS had the best riding tires I could buy at the time, tires aired properly, owned them both from new etc. I would never go back to an ES, I'd rather keep my older LS than trade it on a new ES.
Last edited by SW17LS; 03-23-17 at 11:20 AM.
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03-23-17, 01:41 PM
#8
Id try test driving a few more examples
The first 460 I test drove was an 07 460 from some no name used car lot and I wasn't impressed with it either.
I voiced my opinions here in the 460 section a little more harshly (and often) then I probably should have and ended up being banned from this section of the forum for a period of time lol
I think maintenance and condition of the car is going to have a big affect on the ride quality , test drive some other ones and see how it feels.
My current 08 is a low mileage gem, but even it is a harsher drive then my other Lexus's from the past, but it makes up for it with less body roll and an overall more enjoyable driving experience , at least in my opinion, sometimes it just takes some getting used too.
The first 460 I test drove was an 07 460 from some no name used car lot and I wasn't impressed with it either.
I voiced my opinions here in the 460 section a little more harshly (and often) then I probably should have and ended up being banned from this section of the forum for a period of time lol
I think maintenance and condition of the car is going to have a big affect on the ride quality , test drive some other ones and see how it feels.
My current 08 is a low mileage gem, but even it is a harsher drive then my other Lexus's from the past, but it makes up for it with less body roll and an overall more enjoyable driving experience , at least in my opinion, sometimes it just takes some getting used too.
03-23-17, 08:21 PM
#10
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Today I got in a couple 10's and another 08 and they all had noticeably more comfortable seats while the 10's also had a slightly better ride.
The best of the bunch (so far) was a 2010 with 52k miles offered a ride that handled bumps as well as the ES with a seat pan that was almost as comfortable; of course everything else about the car was significantly better than in an ES. It's not perfect. The brake actuator "barks", which is a great description of the sound now that I've heard it, I would sometimes hear pressing the brake in the parking lot. The leather isn't very supple; it's not brittle, but will become so soon. There are some small chips in the paint that made it through to the sheet metal. The sound system isn't the Mark Levinson. The independent dealership the car was at was tiny and run by two brothers; one a reasonably likable guy, the other a classic used car salesman. Most importantly, the car is $25.7k out the door. I hadn't intended to pay that much, but that's where I put my search cutoff to make sure I wasn't missing out on a significantly nicer car for just a little more and lo and behold that's basically what I'm looking at. I know it's not a great deal (as seem to be often posted here from the other side of the country), but I'm in need of a new(er) car
There's still one more car to see and it too will go over $25k with tax, title, etc. An 08 with 42k miles at a Lexus dealership. I couldn't see it today because they were replacing something in the instrument panel, I didn't get the specifics. The car's service records are impressive; it's a 1 owner that has been taken to the dealer for most (if not all) of it's services.
The best of the bunch (so far) was a 2010 with 52k miles offered a ride that handled bumps as well as the ES with a seat pan that was almost as comfortable; of course everything else about the car was significantly better than in an ES. It's not perfect. The brake actuator "barks", which is a great description of the sound now that I've heard it, I would sometimes hear pressing the brake in the parking lot. The leather isn't very supple; it's not brittle, but will become so soon. There are some small chips in the paint that made it through to the sheet metal. The sound system isn't the Mark Levinson. The independent dealership the car was at was tiny and run by two brothers; one a reasonably likable guy, the other a classic used car salesman. Most importantly, the car is $25.7k out the door. I hadn't intended to pay that much, but that's where I put my search cutoff to make sure I wasn't missing out on a significantly nicer car for just a little more and lo and behold that's basically what I'm looking at. I know it's not a great deal (as seem to be often posted here from the other side of the country), but I'm in need of a new(er) car
There's still one more car to see and it too will go over $25k with tax, title, etc. An 08 with 42k miles at a Lexus dealership. I couldn't see it today because they were replacing something in the instrument panel, I didn't get the specifics. The car's service records are impressive; it's a 1 owner that has been taken to the dealer for most (if not all) of it's services.
03-24-17, 01:41 PM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
For the ride also make sure that you are running the right air pressures in the tires. I run mine at 31PSI cold and the car rides incredibly well.
03-25-17, 04:52 PM
#12
Lexus Test Driver
I like land-yachts. I've owned a few, in fact.
1973 Coupe DeVille
1988 Bonneville (even though it was a small one, it was ultra-floaty)
1985 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance
1989 Mercedes 420SEL
My '08 LS 460 L is much, much 'tighter' in ride/handling/feel than any of the above when they were at their best.
The Mercedes comes closest, but even that car had a very "remote" feeling. You're in a quiet cocoon of leather and quiet. The steering wheel/accelerator/brake all do what they're supposed to, but with only a little feedback.
The Cadillacs, OTOH, were both like driving a real-life version of Pole Position. No steering feel, no brake feel, no accelerator feel, and you might as well be sitting in a large, overstuffed chair given the ride.
Don't get me wrong, I liked all three. Even the Bonneville has stuff going for it, however, my LS 460 L, on air suspension, isn't cushy like any of those cars were. It's tightly-controlled in suspension movement, but it's never harsh.
To me, it's a giant leap forward in yachting, and while I was a bit disappointed, initially, I really like it just five months later.
1973 Coupe DeVille
1988 Bonneville (even though it was a small one, it was ultra-floaty)
1985 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance
1989 Mercedes 420SEL
My '08 LS 460 L is much, much 'tighter' in ride/handling/feel than any of the above when they were at their best.
The Mercedes comes closest, but even that car had a very "remote" feeling. You're in a quiet cocoon of leather and quiet. The steering wheel/accelerator/brake all do what they're supposed to, but with only a little feedback.
The Cadillacs, OTOH, were both like driving a real-life version of Pole Position. No steering feel, no brake feel, no accelerator feel, and you might as well be sitting in a large, overstuffed chair given the ride.
Don't get me wrong, I liked all three. Even the Bonneville has stuff going for it, however, my LS 460 L, on air suspension, isn't cushy like any of those cars were. It's tightly-controlled in suspension movement, but it's never harsh.
To me, it's a giant leap forward in yachting, and while I was a bit disappointed, initially, I really like it just five months later.
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1WILLY1 (03-25-17)
03-25-17, 05:47 PM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Yeah the LS is not a "Lincoln-ey" "floaty-boaty" ride, it never has been...my LS400 and my LS430 weren't either. Its not a wallowy car, its firm but incredibly well damped and refined. Thats one reason why somebody with a short test drive might feel the ES "rides better" because it is a more traditional "floaty boaty" ride.
What you find though with experience behind the wheel is the LS is just always so solid and competent, it communicates whats going on with the road without the feel of those road imperfections bothering you or unsettling the car in any way. Cruise for hours at 80 in the LS and cruise for hours at 80 in the ES and you will see. The ES never stops moving, its always reacting to whats going on along the road, while the LS is solid, flat and steady...almost like you're driving along on glass.
What you find though with experience behind the wheel is the LS is just always so solid and competent, it communicates whats going on with the road without the feel of those road imperfections bothering you or unsettling the car in any way. Cruise for hours at 80 in the LS and cruise for hours at 80 in the ES and you will see. The ES never stops moving, its always reacting to whats going on along the road, while the LS is solid, flat and steady...almost like you're driving along on glass.
03-25-17, 07:23 PM
#14
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Yeah the LS is not a "Lincoln-ey" "floaty-boaty" ride, it never has been...my LS400 and my LS430 weren't either. Its not a wallowy car, its firm but incredibly well damped and refined. Thats one reason why somebody with a short test drive might feel the ES "rides better" because it is a more traditional "floaty boaty" ride.
What you find though with experience behind the wheel is the LS is just always so solid and competent, it communicates whats going on with the road without the feel of those road imperfections bothering you or unsettling the car in any way. Cruise for hours at 80 in the LS and cruise for hours at 80 in the ES and you will see. The ES never stops moving, its always reacting to whats going on along the road, while the LS is solid, flat and steady...almost like you're driving along on glass.
What you find though with experience behind the wheel is the LS is just always so solid and competent, it communicates whats going on with the road without the feel of those road imperfections bothering you or unsettling the car in any way. Cruise for hours at 80 in the LS and cruise for hours at 80 in the ES and you will see. The ES never stops moving, its always reacting to whats going on along the road, while the LS is solid, flat and steady...almost like you're driving along on glass.
Perhaps this is it. It's not like the LS was harsh; just not up to my expectations in this regard. I hadn't even considered handling improvements as a adding value because I don't drive or corner fast, so it's like a feature I'd never take advantage of. Perhaps, in time, I'd appreciate the tightness.
03-25-17, 07:35 PM
#15
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
The 08 with 43k miles was pulled from sales; I guess the problem with the instrument cluster was a bigger deal than they originally thought.
I like 2010 with 53k, but the price wasn't really a great price (IMO) and the dealer completely ignored my comments about the brake actuator, so negotiations stalled quickly. I thought about taking the car to the Lexus dealer for an inspection yesterday (it was way too late in the day for that on Thursday when I drove the car), but I had to head out of town. There won't be time this weekend (Saturday's already gone) and Monday I've got movers coming. Plus, all of my financing options suck until I get a few paychecks from my new job. So my car search will have to be put on hold for a while. Buying a car is hard.
I like 2010 with 53k, but the price wasn't really a great price (IMO) and the dealer completely ignored my comments about the brake actuator, so negotiations stalled quickly. I thought about taking the car to the Lexus dealer for an inspection yesterday (it was way too late in the day for that on Thursday when I drove the car), but I had to head out of town. There won't be time this weekend (Saturday's already gone) and Monday I've got movers coming. Plus, all of my financing options suck until I get a few paychecks from my new job. So my car search will have to be put on hold for a while. Buying a car is hard.