Junglequac

For sure. I really tried to make clear that my misgivings were more about preference and honestly bias than any question about the actual quality of the current offerings. After you brought up the G90, I must say I was truly impressed and said so several times on this forum.

I really did couch my comments in that I realize Hyundai/Kia have massively gotten their act together and the design language has made leaps and bounds since poaching Peter Schreyer who was Design Director of VW, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Audi. Easy to see why he took the job as he is now one of their 3 Presidents.

SW17LS

That biases existed in a huge way against Lexus, and still does to a large extent. Nobody I know who has a European luxury car considers Lexus to be a legitimate luxury car because it's a Toyota. Nobody.

I would urge you to look past your bias though and check them out for what they are.

roadfrog

I'm 54, so my bias and memories of the Hyundai Pony are still vivid. Hyundai began selling in Canada several years before the U.S. and the Pony was the predecessor to the Excel. The Excel was far better than the Pony, so you can imagine how bad the Pony was.

That said, I take things at face value and try not to let old reputations get in the way. The recent offerings from Hyundai and Kia over the last 10 years or so, has completely sold me on their brand. Add to that their unbeatable warranty and for me it's a solid contender for anything I buy. Like Steve says, the stigma and lack of prestige, is the only thing that could ever hold me back. But as he also stated, that same stigma exists with Lexus. When I was a member at Bimmerfest and posted about getting out of my POS 7 Series, the members there laughed at my consideration of the LS. "Jap Crap", "over-sized Toyota Camry" etc, were brought up constantly. Back in the day, TV shows etc made constant fun of anything "Made in Japan". Now, if it's NOT made in Japan, it's seen as inferior. Cameras, watches, TV's, and more recently - even whiskey, are seen as superior to any other country's offerings. I am 100% certain that anything from South Korea (and eventually China), will be coveted. Look at the ratings for electronics and appliances made by LG and Samsung. They surpass the previous offerings of Panasonic, Sony and the like.

CRowe14

This. And owning many of brands you listed above, I can attest to their quality and longevity, as many can (customer reviews about products Japan-made). I'll also add that they seem to stand behind their products as well.
I don't go as far back as you guys do regarding the tarnished legacy of Hyundai, but I do know that they have come quite a long way in producing a very good vehicle. And as Roadfrog stated, I'd simply try it our for the warranty alone! I mean, it'd have to be a car that I want, but the warranty they offer is pretty stout.

Chris: Im looking forward to your feedback on the G90, as I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how quality of a vehicle it is. I know I was.

Junglequac

Totally understandable and that same bias applies to modern German cars as well which aside from perhaps a new S Class, I would not want to touch with a ten foot pole. I have great respect for the Tau V8 and they sunk if memory serves something like $400,000,000 USD in that motor alone or somesuch.

All that being said, while I know Genesis is now its own brand and Hyundai is being very exclusive as to where they sell it, but I will say my Lexus dealer experience has been uniformly positive. That said, if the LS 500 does not sell very well and becomes nothing more than a niche vehicle, I will be all but forced to consider a G90 as I really am a strong proponent of a naturally aspirated V8 and aside from the GS-F, IS-F and soon LC 500, those will be most likely soon be the only NA V8's in Lexus's fleet.

That will give me a strong impulse to check out the GS-F, but if the 5LS never incorporates a NA V8, I will set aside by bias and test drive one once the juice is no longer worth the squeeze on the 460.

tomd

Nonsense And I've owned all three

Hummel

I compared the LS and Audi A8 in December and I bought the A8. I have owned Toyota and Lexus (LX) and in my experience they are very reliable. I have never owned an Audi until now and since I have had it for almost two months now, I will say that I am quite pleased with my decision. I know that maintenance and future repairs will be more because of how the vehicle is engineered. I went into the comparison process knowing that. There is absolutely no way the vehicles are comparable in the driving experience and the Audi definitely offers much more at the same price point. Two different animals. Just my opinion.

SW17LS

"Much more" depends on what you're looking for. Its a more dynamic and engaging drive but not everybody wants that or is looking for that.

Hummel

By much more, I was implying standard and optional features, relative to the Lexus. I am not bashing the LS, by any means.

comotiger

Features such as surround view camera, massaging front seats, fully digital instrument cluster: these are options that are not available even in the 2017 LS. I can see why the A8L or the other German flagships may speak to folks interested in these features, and who therefore may be willing to put up with headaches like poorer reliability.

SW17LS

You're going to pay more for those features standard on the A8...

And remember that the A8 has Audis OLD suite of tech lol. The A8 is outdated compared to newer model Audis!

FatherTo1

Wow, only 9K difference for the title? You could almost blame the LS for those sales, or lack thereof. I knew Toyota and Lexus lost the sales crown a few years back but didn't realize the luxury sales title was so close last year.

Junglequac

Considering the impact that the LS400 made on the Germans, snobbery aside, I just do not think it is a fair comparison. The F1 Project that birthed the LS400 cost in excess of one billion Dollars in the 80's, caused Mercedes to rush out the W140 S Class which in turn caused massive cost overruns to be competitive with the LS400 and even caused Daimler Benz's engineering chief his job. All the while costing $20,000 less than the MB 420SEL and $10,000 less than the BMW 735 all the while beating them in every comparison I came across and were built so well that Jalopnik recently featured an LS400 with 1,000,000 miles on them.
Only a misinformed crackhead would call it anything analogous to a Camry. This was truly a paradigm shift.

This is not to say that the LS460 was anything like that, but the blueprint laid out by the first LS caused a sea change and took years for the Germans to catchup and for a time all but destroyed the reputation of their cars in terms of build quality and reliability. This was especially true of the followup to the W140, the W220 which most agree to have been a disaster.

While upon the introduction of the LS400, it was certainly fair to say that Lexus was guilty of price dumping, but to call it crap is patently absurd. Unlike our 460's which even when first introduced were often coming in last in comparison tests, the 400 came out ahead in most every comparison.

Gbp

Actually, when the 2007 LS460 was introduced, it had rave reviews from much of the automobile press, including comparisons to the Mercedes S550. There were innovations in the LS460 that were industry firsts and its features were considered on par if not better than its competitors. While the other brands went through redesigns to make them more competitive and even exceeding the LS460, the LS460 stayed much the same until MY 2013. Even 2013+ had changes mostly in design, and the technology/feature improvements were more an attempt to catch up with its competitors than innovations.

There's much positive to be said about the LS460 in terms of quality and reliability, but people who want the latest and greatest features in a luxury vehicle see the appeal of cars like the A8 (even if lags behind in certain ways from Audi's non-luxury models). I'm curious to see how the 2018 LS fares in terms of sales.

comotiger

I am positive the 2018 LS460 will have zero sales . But the 2018 LS500 should be a hit!!