Vibration at high speed, tires & occasional rattle
05-20-16, 08:53 AM
#1
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Vibration at high speed, tires & occasional rattle
Fellow LS owener's:
Its been a while since I've posted, but please allow me to say that its because I've been pretty busy. I never intended to be one of those guys that only post when I have issues-big or small, but to provide feedback that may help as well occasionally complain about how much I really enjoy this car, because honestly, I really, really enjoy this car.
Its great to see the camaraderie amongst everyone and to me, the breadth of information in this place is remarkable.
Now, onto the subject matter.
Vibration:
I have a subtle vibration at highway speed, beginning at around 69-70mph.
I'll be honest and say that's its been this way for some time now, but the replacement of my UCA's, alignment and RFB made it dissipate quite a bit but not completely disappear. That in conjunction with the fact that I don't drive much on the expressway, I don't think about it much.
But I recently took a road trip and it simply bugged the hell out of me.
As stated, the vibration begins at around 70mph, but when I reach about 82-83mph, its smooth's out.
I took a drive with a Lexus SM yesterday and he said a few things while he drove and I in the passenger seat:
-The tires felt harsh and didn't seem to absorb bumps/road variation very well.
-A bit or road noise, though not very bad, but its there.
My tires: Michelin Energy Saver A/S
Age: 0412
Mileage: ~15k
He got up to speed, around 75-76mph, felt the vibration and he immediately said: "Yeah, its your tires".
He goes on to explain how tires are made and speak about the steel belts in the tires, and how then can not only bust/break, but loose their integrity and cause a tire to spin "out of round" and cause vibration.
I stated I that I understood, but asked how is it possible for the vibration to begin then stop if in fact it is the tire(s). He said that a bad tire can actually "balance itself back out" upon reaching an escalated speed.
Note: The reason I had previously eliminated tires as the culprit was because I have had 2 RFB's done in the past year and a half, and though it was a bit better, again, it was never completely fixed.
Tires:
I begin to ask him about tire recommendation's, and specifically ask him his opinion on the heralded Pirelli Cinturato P7+ tires that a good few of you guys out there seem to really enjoy.
He proceeds to tell me that there is no way he would put Pirelli's on an LS or any Lexus for that matter because generally the tread patter is too aggressive resulting in road noise, and that a Lexus would never come from the factory with Pirelli tires because they don't, spec-wise, provide the comfort and are too noisy, and they don't last long.
He recommended the Michelin Pilot Series as well as another series that I cant currently recall.
Rattle:
The rattle that I hear when driving is very, very occasional. In fact, I went on a 15 ride with a tech a few weeks ago and I only heard it about 1-2 times and he barely heard it.
So yesterday while with the SM, I took him to the specific street where I hear the noise so there would be no issue with noise replication.
In my best effort to describe the noise, it sounds like a faint rattle coming from the front passenger side, and I only hear it when driving on roads where the surface is very inconsistent (think about roads where there are a myriad of "repaired" pot holes thus an uneven driving surface).
My assumption was that it was suspension related thus a possible culprit of my high-speed vibration.
The SA pulls over, pops the hood and notices that the inspection cover on the passenger side was loose, takes it off, puts it in the trunk, does a u-turn and travels back down the same road.
The rattle was still there.
He then executes another U-turn and says he'd like to try lightly braking while going over the bumps to see if its a brake rattle and if he felt anything in the brake pedal.
The rattle was still there, no brake noise (from what he could surmise).
We head back to the shop and he puts the car in the air, he and the tech inspect the suspension and said everything looks and appears to be very stable, in-shape and tight.
He came and got me from the waiting room, brings me out to the car and tells me that the only thing he can think of, is that perhaps the front bumper cover is a little loose.
He makes a fist and bangs on the under portion of the bumper cover, right beneath the passenger side fog light, and indeed it rattled. He did it under the drivers side in the exact area-beneath the fog light, and the rattle was not a result.
He advised to maybe take it to a body shop and have them see if the bumper cover clips were ok, but other than that, mechanically, the car seemed solid.
So, there it is guys and gal's!
Opinions, feedback...you know how it goes!
Let the discussion begin, and of course, thank you all for your attention and time.
Its been a while since I've posted, but please allow me to say that its because I've been pretty busy. I never intended to be one of those guys that only post when I have issues-big or small, but to provide feedback that may help as well occasionally complain about how much I really enjoy this car, because honestly, I really, really enjoy this car.
Its great to see the camaraderie amongst everyone and to me, the breadth of information in this place is remarkable.
Now, onto the subject matter.
Vibration:
I have a subtle vibration at highway speed, beginning at around 69-70mph.
I'll be honest and say that's its been this way for some time now, but the replacement of my UCA's, alignment and RFB made it dissipate quite a bit but not completely disappear. That in conjunction with the fact that I don't drive much on the expressway, I don't think about it much.
But I recently took a road trip and it simply bugged the hell out of me.
As stated, the vibration begins at around 70mph, but when I reach about 82-83mph, its smooth's out.
I took a drive with a Lexus SM yesterday and he said a few things while he drove and I in the passenger seat:
-The tires felt harsh and didn't seem to absorb bumps/road variation very well.
-A bit or road noise, though not very bad, but its there.
My tires: Michelin Energy Saver A/S
Age: 0412
Mileage: ~15k
He got up to speed, around 75-76mph, felt the vibration and he immediately said: "Yeah, its your tires".
He goes on to explain how tires are made and speak about the steel belts in the tires, and how then can not only bust/break, but loose their integrity and cause a tire to spin "out of round" and cause vibration.
I stated I that I understood, but asked how is it possible for the vibration to begin then stop if in fact it is the tire(s). He said that a bad tire can actually "balance itself back out" upon reaching an escalated speed.
Note: The reason I had previously eliminated tires as the culprit was because I have had 2 RFB's done in the past year and a half, and though it was a bit better, again, it was never completely fixed.
Tires:
I begin to ask him about tire recommendation's, and specifically ask him his opinion on the heralded Pirelli Cinturato P7+ tires that a good few of you guys out there seem to really enjoy.
He proceeds to tell me that there is no way he would put Pirelli's on an LS or any Lexus for that matter because generally the tread patter is too aggressive resulting in road noise, and that a Lexus would never come from the factory with Pirelli tires because they don't, spec-wise, provide the comfort and are too noisy, and they don't last long.
He recommended the Michelin Pilot Series as well as another series that I cant currently recall.
Rattle:
The rattle that I hear when driving is very, very occasional. In fact, I went on a 15 ride with a tech a few weeks ago and I only heard it about 1-2 times and he barely heard it.
So yesterday while with the SM, I took him to the specific street where I hear the noise so there would be no issue with noise replication.
In my best effort to describe the noise, it sounds like a faint rattle coming from the front passenger side, and I only hear it when driving on roads where the surface is very inconsistent (think about roads where there are a myriad of "repaired" pot holes thus an uneven driving surface).
My assumption was that it was suspension related thus a possible culprit of my high-speed vibration.
The SA pulls over, pops the hood and notices that the inspection cover on the passenger side was loose, takes it off, puts it in the trunk, does a u-turn and travels back down the same road.
The rattle was still there.
He then executes another U-turn and says he'd like to try lightly braking while going over the bumps to see if its a brake rattle and if he felt anything in the brake pedal.
The rattle was still there, no brake noise (from what he could surmise).
We head back to the shop and he puts the car in the air, he and the tech inspect the suspension and said everything looks and appears to be very stable, in-shape and tight.
He came and got me from the waiting room, brings me out to the car and tells me that the only thing he can think of, is that perhaps the front bumper cover is a little loose.
He makes a fist and bangs on the under portion of the bumper cover, right beneath the passenger side fog light, and indeed it rattled. He did it under the drivers side in the exact area-beneath the fog light, and the rattle was not a result.
He advised to maybe take it to a body shop and have them see if the bumper cover clips were ok, but other than that, mechanically, the car seemed solid.
So, there it is guys and gal's!
Opinions, feedback...you know how it goes!
Let the discussion begin, and of course, thank you all for your attention and time.
Last edited by CRowe14; 05-20-16 at 11:28 AM.
05-20-16, 09:29 AM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
My first thought is out-of-round tires. I assume you have 19 inch tires?
That's one of the main culprits to speed-sensitive vibrations. What speed you feel it at is dependent on the diameter of the tire. Smaller tires will likely feel it kick in sooner or at slower speeds. Larger tires at higher speeds. Also the suspension softness and tuning will correlate to when and how you feel it.
Also, larger diameter tires are more susceptible in general to these slight imperfections.
The reason why it goes away after a certain speed is that the rotation is fast enough to hide that imbalance. At lower speeds it's not rotating enough to notice it either, but at certain speeds the rotation is just enough to amplify that imperfection and due to the frequency can be felt.
After a while, that slight out-of-roundness might skim itself down by itself or conversely, if the tires are wearing unevenly, could make itself worse as you pile on more miles.
I know some people go to extreme measures to shave down their tires, but eh, I'm just guessing, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Even if the roundness is within RFB round tests, if it's off, you might still feel it.
That's one of the main culprits to speed-sensitive vibrations. What speed you feel it at is dependent on the diameter of the tire. Smaller tires will likely feel it kick in sooner or at slower speeds. Larger tires at higher speeds. Also the suspension softness and tuning will correlate to when and how you feel it.
Also, larger diameter tires are more susceptible in general to these slight imperfections.
The reason why it goes away after a certain speed is that the rotation is fast enough to hide that imbalance. At lower speeds it's not rotating enough to notice it either, but at certain speeds the rotation is just enough to amplify that imperfection and due to the frequency can be felt.
After a while, that slight out-of-roundness might skim itself down by itself or conversely, if the tires are wearing unevenly, could make itself worse as you pile on more miles.
I know some people go to extreme measures to shave down their tires, but eh, I'm just guessing, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Even if the roundness is within RFB round tests, if it's off, you might still feel it.
05-20-16, 11:52 AM
#3
Pole Position
CRowe14: Please be sure to check my post here. There's a chance that the rattle isn't coming from where you think it is. https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...ml#post9461473
05-20-16, 12:06 PM
#4
Pole Position
CRowe, while I don't have any helpful suggestions, I am impressed by the service provided by your Lexus SM/SA. They appear to have spent a significant chunk of time riding with you to diagnose and replicate various concerns. Not only that, they spent additional time in the shop raising the car and showing you the potential source of the rattle. This is impressive service!
Did they charge you just the diagnostic fee or more? I am building up a nice rapport with my Lexus SA, and I am hoping it will pay off in the long run. Good luck with getting your concerns resolved soon!
Did they charge you just the diagnostic fee or more? I am building up a nice rapport with my Lexus SA, and I am hoping it will pay off in the long run. Good luck with getting your concerns resolved soon!
05-20-16, 02:22 PM
#5
I have a 2011 L with air suspension and the 19 inch tires. I too had a slight vibration between 70-80 mph. I had the tires road forced balanced with the GSP9700 Road Force Touch. The road force numbers were 3, 10, 10, and the last tire was the culprit on the right front, a 22. The tech kept trying to adjust the tire on the rim but the road force numbers were still unacceptable. The Lexus tech explained that lower profile tires, such as the 19’s, should have a road force number of 15 or less. The bad tire was sent back to Tire Rack and I was sent a new tire. The new tire had a road force number was 7! The end result was an absolute better ride. By the way, I had the tech show me the road force numbers for each tire while the tire was on the machine. This GSP9700 Road Force Touch is Hunter’s latest equipment-you should check it out on youtube. Hope this helps!
05-20-16, 02:27 PM
#6
CRowe, while I don't have any helpful suggestions, I am impressed by the service provided by your Lexus SM/SA. They appear to have spent a significant chunk of time riding with you to diagnose and replicate various concerns. Not only that, they spent additional time in the shop raising the car and showing you the potential source of the rattle. This is impressive service!
Did they charge you just the diagnostic fee or more? I am building up a nice rapport with my Lexus SA, and I am hoping it will pay off in the long run. Good luck with getting your concerns resolved soon!
Did they charge you just the diagnostic fee or more? I am building up a nice rapport with my Lexus SA, and I am hoping it will pay off in the long run. Good luck with getting your concerns resolved soon!
And to the OP about tires, Lexus only recommends those Mitchelins or sometimes Bridgestones. You can request the Pirelli's and they can special order them for you but Lexus isn't an OEM partner with Pirelli thus they're not in their "recommended" tires list.
05-20-16, 02:45 PM
#7
Pole Position
I have Pirelli's on my car...PZero Nero and I must say they are loud and they do wear fast...can't stand them. They came with the car and a pair of them wore out, so I bought two more...then the other two wore out...so I bought two more. Needless to say I'm not going to be buying "two more" the next time. I'm not saying all Pirelli's are bad, I'm saying the PZero nero's are.
And yeah the vibration could be tires, tires are the answer to a lot of problems...handling, noise, vibration. It's amazing how a good pair of tires can change the entire dynamic of the vehicle. I too have a slight vibration at those speeds and tires/wheels will kind of balance themselves out the faster you go. With my situation I know I have one rim with a good deal of weights on it...probably not the truest of rims...plus I have the Pirelli's...not a good combo. It doesn't bother me, the car has 126,000 miles on it...things could be a whole hell of a lot worse for me.
And yeah the vibration could be tires, tires are the answer to a lot of problems...handling, noise, vibration. It's amazing how a good pair of tires can change the entire dynamic of the vehicle. I too have a slight vibration at those speeds and tires/wheels will kind of balance themselves out the faster you go. With my situation I know I have one rim with a good deal of weights on it...probably not the truest of rims...plus I have the Pirelli's...not a good combo. It doesn't bother me, the car has 126,000 miles on it...things could be a whole hell of a lot worse for me.
Trending Topics
05-21-16, 08:16 AM
#8
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Rhambler:
Thank you kindly for the your time and the input. I'm glad, this far, it seems to be something as simple as a set of new tires. I'd just like to feel a bit more comfortable with that being the nemesis of this issue. What I don't want is to execute a shot gun approach; paying for "possible" fixes and not addressing the apparent problem. What would your tire recommendation be? Oh, btw, my tire radius is 18.
Scrutator:
I recalled reading this and never thought to check it out. I will as soon as I send this post out. Will report back once I check this out and thanks!
Comotiger:
Hey, thanks for your time, however...(laughing here), I must be forthright in saying that this level of attention is a direct result of him offering way below sub par service on a few occasions in recent past, and me writing a few emails to people in authoritative positions, ranking above his position and pay grade. I can go into more detail via PM if you'd like, but this level of service in this given scenario was more like a "I'm giving you exemplary because I was reprimanded by my superiors, I was told to take great care of you, please don't complain to my boss again" type of thing. And to address your questions, no charge for any of the time he spent and an oil change that I needed was complimentary.
Reflex:
I wish had had asked for the original paperwork from the previous two times my RFB was done. At this point, I'm not sure what route to go:
Have another RFB done by another tire shop or just get new tires. The other thing I'm curious about is if these aftermarket wheels are slightly out of round. I dont have the OEM's, they didn't come with the car.
Enoch861:
Thanks for the feedback. I figured that was the case, but I was hoping to gain more feedback from owners here who have actually owned Pirelli tires and what their experience had been. But given the fact that these Pirelli P7+'s are relatively new (I think), I'm not sure how well tested they are over a course of mileage accumulation. I understand no tire is perfect and even models within a brand can differ. But I want a nice, quiet, durable tire that I can get at least 30-40k out of.
Double:
Hey bud! I absolutely hear you! As I said, I've been living with the vibration for some time now, but I just don't experience it often enough for it to be a constant reminder. It definitely could be a lot worse, however, I have to be truthful in saying that if the possibility exist for my riding/driving experience to be enhanced, then by all means, I'd like to try to achieve it.
Thank you kindly for the your time and the input. I'm glad, this far, it seems to be something as simple as a set of new tires. I'd just like to feel a bit more comfortable with that being the nemesis of this issue. What I don't want is to execute a shot gun approach; paying for "possible" fixes and not addressing the apparent problem. What would your tire recommendation be? Oh, btw, my tire radius is 18.
Scrutator:
I recalled reading this and never thought to check it out. I will as soon as I send this post out. Will report back once I check this out and thanks!
Comotiger:
Hey, thanks for your time, however...(laughing here), I must be forthright in saying that this level of attention is a direct result of him offering way below sub par service on a few occasions in recent past, and me writing a few emails to people in authoritative positions, ranking above his position and pay grade. I can go into more detail via PM if you'd like, but this level of service in this given scenario was more like a "I'm giving you exemplary because I was reprimanded by my superiors, I was told to take great care of you, please don't complain to my boss again" type of thing. And to address your questions, no charge for any of the time he spent and an oil change that I needed was complimentary.
Reflex:
I wish had had asked for the original paperwork from the previous two times my RFB was done. At this point, I'm not sure what route to go:
Have another RFB done by another tire shop or just get new tires. The other thing I'm curious about is if these aftermarket wheels are slightly out of round. I dont have the OEM's, they didn't come with the car.
Enoch861:
Thanks for the feedback. I figured that was the case, but I was hoping to gain more feedback from owners here who have actually owned Pirelli tires and what their experience had been. But given the fact that these Pirelli P7+'s are relatively new (I think), I'm not sure how well tested they are over a course of mileage accumulation. I understand no tire is perfect and even models within a brand can differ. But I want a nice, quiet, durable tire that I can get at least 30-40k out of.
Double:
Hey bud! I absolutely hear you! As I said, I've been living with the vibration for some time now, but I just don't experience it often enough for it to be a constant reminder. It definitely could be a lot worse, however, I have to be truthful in saying that if the possibility exist for my riding/driving experience to be enhanced, then by all means, I'd like to try to achieve it.
05-21-16, 10:45 AM
#9
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
I failed to end y last post with me asking for tire recommendation's.
There's already a well ducumented thread about the Pirelli P7's, but what other options are you guys currently driving with? Preferences? Recommendation's?
There's already a well ducumented thread about the Pirelli P7's, but what other options are you guys currently driving with? Preferences? Recommendation's?
05-21-16, 02:44 PM
#10
Pole Position
Comotiger:
Hey, thanks for your time, however...(laughing here), I must be forthright in saying that this level of attention is a direct result of him offering way below sub par service on a few occasions in recent past, and me writing a few emails to people in authoritative positions, ranking above his position and pay grade. I can go into more detail via PM if you'd like, but this level of service in this given scenario was more like a "I'm giving you exemplary because I was reprimanded by my superiors, I was told to take great care of you, please don't complain to my boss again" type of thing. And to address your questions, no charge for any of the time he spent and an oil change that I needed was complimentary.
Hey, thanks for your time, however...(laughing here), I must be forthright in saying that this level of attention is a direct result of him offering way below sub par service on a few occasions in recent past, and me writing a few emails to people in authoritative positions, ranking above his position and pay grade. I can go into more detail via PM if you'd like, but this level of service in this given scenario was more like a "I'm giving you exemplary because I was reprimanded by my superiors, I was told to take great care of you, please don't complain to my boss again" type of thing. And to address your questions, no charge for any of the time he spent and an oil change that I needed was complimentary.
05-22-16, 08:45 AM
#12
Hi CRowe, a bit late here, but a couple thoughts...
By and large, I agree with what has been said. I will add that beyond wheel diameter/tire profile considerations, which do make the ride particularly sensitive to any out-of-round-tire issues (especially under load, where road-force comes in), the LS460 is in a league of its own. While 15 pounds of RFV isn't a bad number at all, the unofficial spec for the LS is 10 pounds, and believe me, it makes a huge difference.
From this perspective, I have (personally) had very positive experience with Michelin touring/grand touring tires "working out of the box", if you will, though on occasion, there's been a single tire that's required multiple tries. On the other hand, every time I've left Michelin (or tried anything other than touring tires), I've had RFV issues of one way or another. For instance, Michelin Pilot Sports were horrible on my '08 460L, though (to be fair), there have been revisions since to that product line. Ditto for Continentals...
Personally, when I decide to get rid of the Falken summer tires I have (don't ask... this is what the selling dealer put on my car
), it's most likely that I will try the Pirelli P7 Cinturatos, as the research and experiences on here are very encouraging (it's also nice-looking, to boot). My dealer knows how sensitive I am to vibrations, so it will all be subject to how they measure up on road force, but again, very promising and worth a try, IMHO.
By and large, I agree with what has been said. I will add that beyond wheel diameter/tire profile considerations, which do make the ride particularly sensitive to any out-of-round-tire issues (especially under load, where road-force comes in), the LS460 is in a league of its own. While 15 pounds of RFV isn't a bad number at all, the unofficial spec for the LS is 10 pounds, and believe me, it makes a huge difference.
From this perspective, I have (personally) had very positive experience with Michelin touring/grand touring tires "working out of the box", if you will, though on occasion, there's been a single tire that's required multiple tries. On the other hand, every time I've left Michelin (or tried anything other than touring tires), I've had RFV issues of one way or another. For instance, Michelin Pilot Sports were horrible on my '08 460L, though (to be fair), there have been revisions since to that product line. Ditto for Continentals...
Personally, when I decide to get rid of the Falken summer tires I have (don't ask... this is what the selling dealer put on my car
), it's most likely that I will try the Pirelli P7 Cinturatos, as the research and experiences on here are very encouraging (it's also nice-looking, to boot). My dealer knows how sensitive I am to vibrations, so it will all be subject to how they measure up on road force, but again, very promising and worth a try, IMHO.
05-22-16, 11:34 AM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Personally, when I decide to get rid of the Falken summer tires I have (don't ask... this is what the selling dealer put on my car
05-22-16, 07:03 PM
#14
Solid tires and pretty sticky, but they do seem to take away from the smoothness and quietness of the ride. The contrast with my "winter set" (all-season Michelin Primacy), which used to be my summer set on the 460, is noticeable, though definitely not bad in a way that would warrant an immediate change.
Although I know these tires have a following, in this case it was clear that the dealer picked them to save $. I was even surprised they had to replace tires; car was less than 4 yrs old and had 9,500 miles (on the Bridgestones, mind you, but still).
05-22-16, 08:11 PM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
I begin to ask him about tire recommendation's, and specifically ask him his opinion on the heralded Pirelli Cinturato P7+ tires that a good few of you guys out there seem to really enjoy.
He proceeds to tell me that there is no way he would put Pirelli's on an LS or any Lexus for that matter because generally the tread patter is too aggressive resulting in road noise, and that a Lexus would never come from the factory with Pirelli tires because they don't, spec-wise, provide the comfort and are too noisy, and they don't last long.
He recommended the Michelin Pilot Series as well as another series that I cant currently recall.
He proceeds to tell me that there is no way he would put Pirelli's on an LS or any Lexus for that matter because generally the tread patter is too aggressive resulting in road noise, and that a Lexus would never come from the factory with Pirelli tires because they don't, spec-wise, provide the comfort and are too noisy, and they don't last long.
He recommended the Michelin Pilot Series as well as another series that I cant currently recall.
As to his comment about the Pirellis. I'm sure the fact that Lexus dealers don't sell Pirelli tires has nothing to do with his suggestion that they're a bad fit for the LS lol.
I've had several Lexus LS models and these tires are a great fit for the car. He's totally full of poop.