audio upgrade (Premium)
02-18-12, 07:01 AM
#91
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Mikey, I appreciate and respect your response, but I feel a bit different about those issues.
First, in my experience, I know I'm not in majority by stating this, the influence of the amp on the sound is greater than influence of the speakers. I need to qualify that by saying, assuming speakers are of relatively good quality to begin with. Crappy speakers can crap the sound and no amp in the world will resurrect it.
Also, how many watts and how much something costs per watts is often illogical. I have at home 44 watts per channel, Single Ended Triode amps, and they are by far better than most other amps regardless of cost or wattage. I say most, there are some better ones though.
There is always something better. So 30 good watts are better than 3000 crappy watts. I always find it funny when car dealers brag about how many watts certain car system has. It's really meaningless.
What I was more interested to know was if someone actually listened to a good tube amp in the car, and if anyone knows about any specific issues/problems in installing it, handling it and actually comparing it in REAL LIFE in sound to a really good solid state amp. I'm seriously thinking about buying and installing Milbert, at least for the midrange and tweeter section, and possibly combining it for a separate amp for the subwoofer.
First, in my experience, I know I'm not in majority by stating this, the influence of the amp on the sound is greater than influence of the speakers. I need to qualify that by saying, assuming speakers are of relatively good quality to begin with. Crappy speakers can crap the sound and no amp in the world will resurrect it.
Also, how many watts and how much something costs per watts is often illogical. I have at home 44 watts per channel, Single Ended Triode amps, and they are by far better than most other amps regardless of cost or wattage. I say most, there are some better ones though.
There is always something better. So 30 good watts are better than 3000 crappy watts. I always find it funny when car dealers brag about how many watts certain car system has. It's really meaningless. What I was more interested to know was if someone actually listened to a good tube amp in the car, and if anyone knows about any specific issues/problems in installing it, handling it and actually comparing it in REAL LIFE in sound to a really good solid state amp. I'm seriously thinking about buying and installing Milbert, at least for the midrange and tweeter section, and possibly combining it for a separate amp for the subwoofer.
02-18-12, 08:46 AM
#92
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
while the amp will change the color of the sound and the dynamics, you may not want to spend the dollars associated with a tube amp of this quality in a moving vehicle. The usable dynamic range and sound floor are all far less than one would experience at home. You only have so much usable space inside of a vehicle as well so your low end will be limited, something that tube amps really speak to.
Having said that, the drivers and the amps as a matched pair is really where most of the bang for the buck comes from. The reason I went with Focal drivers, cross overs and amps was because they were all designed to go together, but that is only as good at the DSP that feeds it all. Given that all of our sources are of high quality, I am not sure how much the tube amp (for the money) would add to your experience, especially at say 80 mph when our usable dynamic range is now very small.
Its a very quiet car, I actually purchased mine to put a sound system in. As a recording engineer with a EE background, I understand mechanics of it, but the real world experience over the years led to a complete system update of only $3,000 Its only my opinion and we all have our own preferences, but I believe you would experience the sound your after by matching components to each other as a system rather than just adding in a Tube amp. The drivers have the most impact on sound, by far, but its really the relationship of all of it together that determines the end user experience.
Having said that, the drivers and the amps as a matched pair is really where most of the bang for the buck comes from. The reason I went with Focal drivers, cross overs and amps was because they were all designed to go together, but that is only as good at the DSP that feeds it all. Given that all of our sources are of high quality, I am not sure how much the tube amp (for the money) would add to your experience, especially at say 80 mph when our usable dynamic range is now very small.
Its a very quiet car, I actually purchased mine to put a sound system in. As a recording engineer with a EE background, I understand mechanics of it, but the real world experience over the years led to a complete system update of only $3,000 Its only my opinion and we all have our own preferences, but I believe you would experience the sound your after by matching components to each other as a system rather than just adding in a Tube amp. The drivers have the most impact on sound, by far, but its really the relationship of all of it together that determines the end user experience.
02-18-12, 01:19 PM
#93
Lead Lap
H**L ......... I'm 'jes gonna take my Audio Research Reference 150 and go home.
LOL ! Best Wishes to all ........ Pink Floyd on Tube amps ! ....... Yeah ! - Mikey Lulejian - Lake Oconee, GA
LOL ! Best Wishes to all ........ Pink Floyd on Tube amps ! ....... Yeah ! - Mikey Lulejian - Lake Oconee, GA
02-29-12, 09:30 PM
#94
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Thanks cmasten for response. I never had a chance to hear any custom made car system, so I'm totally without experience in that department. I have listened several times to Mark Levinson in LS460 and it's a decent system, much better than any factory setup to my ears, but it's still falling short of ideal sound. Reading your posts here encouraged me about possibility to create something better than ML. So your responses are appreciated.
I have at home very good sounding SET amp (Single Ended Triode) and no solid state amp, regardless of price, came even close to its sound. That fact, plus the reviews on Milbert I read, and all of them are glowing reviews if you had a chance to even look at them, suggested that I can possibly recreate some of that tube magic in a car, especially such a quiet car.
A few more questions. Why do you even need a DSP? What if you have really high quality components, crossover etc and no further digital processing at all. You think that would sound bad simply because of the difficulty to get proper signal with various distance drivers?
Second, no one responded on further acoustical treatment. Has anyone tried to quiet even more LS 460, with various after market acoustic mats. And any suggestions there? I guess any decibel reduction in noise would provide significantly better environment.
Like you, I also have interest in LS only because of its quietness, as music reproduction is extremely important to me. Well, reliability too. Benz S class is even quieter, but they are not very reliable.
I have at home very good sounding SET amp (Single Ended Triode) and no solid state amp, regardless of price, came even close to its sound. That fact, plus the reviews on Milbert I read, and all of them are glowing reviews if you had a chance to even look at them, suggested that I can possibly recreate some of that tube magic in a car, especially such a quiet car.
A few more questions. Why do you even need a DSP? What if you have really high quality components, crossover etc and no further digital processing at all. You think that would sound bad simply because of the difficulty to get proper signal with various distance drivers?
Second, no one responded on further acoustical treatment. Has anyone tried to quiet even more LS 460, with various after market acoustic mats. And any suggestions there? I guess any decibel reduction in noise would provide significantly better environment.
Like you, I also have interest in LS only because of its quietness, as music reproduction is extremely important to me. Well, reliability too. Benz S class is even quieter, but they are not very reliable.
03-01-12, 02:23 AM
#95
Lead Lap
We doesn't dare infiltrate this signal path with solid-state Lexus components.
Getting Realistic: I understand your DESIRES. And I actually feel they are most commendable. I just feel you are looking to accomplish an almost impossible task using a Lexus LS460 as a base, since there are so many necessary components to you achieving your goals, most of which you cannot accommodate using a Lexus.
A "great" driving experience has many components, and a Great SOUND SYSTEM is one of them. But there are "limits" to this "Sound System" (in a Lexus) - unless you have a whole lot more in the bank than at first assumed. And in that case, I apologize in advance and close for now.
Mikey Lulejian - Lake Oconee, GA
Last edited by Mikey100; 03-02-12 at 02:08 AM.
03-01-12, 11:12 PM
#96
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Thanks cmasten for response. I never had a chance to hear any custom made car system, so I'm totally without experience in that department. I have listened several times to Mark Levinson in LS460 and it's a decent system, much better than any factory setup to my ears, but it's still falling short of ideal sound. Reading your posts here encouraged me about possibility to create something better than ML. So your responses are appreciated.
I have at home very good sounding SET amp (Single Ended Triode) and no solid state amp, regardless of price, came even close to its sound. That fact, plus the reviews on Milbert I read, and all of them are glowing reviews if you had a chance to even look at them, suggested that I can possibly recreate some of that tube magic in a car, especially such a quiet car.
A few more questions. Why do you even need a DSP? What if you have really high quality components, crossover etc and no further digital processing at all. You think that would sound bad simply because of the difficulty to get proper signal with various distance drivers?
Second, no one responded on further acoustical treatment. Has anyone tried to quiet even more LS 460, with various after market acoustic mats. And any suggestions there? I guess any decibel reduction in noise would provide significantly better environment.
Like you, I also have interest in LS only because of its quietness, as music reproduction is extremely important to me. Well, reliability too. Benz S class is even quieter, but they are not very reliable.
I have at home very good sounding SET amp (Single Ended Triode) and no solid state amp, regardless of price, came even close to its sound. That fact, plus the reviews on Milbert I read, and all of them are glowing reviews if you had a chance to even look at them, suggested that I can possibly recreate some of that tube magic in a car, especially such a quiet car.
A few more questions. Why do you even need a DSP? What if you have really high quality components, crossover etc and no further digital processing at all. You think that would sound bad simply because of the difficulty to get proper signal with various distance drivers?
Second, no one responded on further acoustical treatment. Has anyone tried to quiet even more LS 460, with various after market acoustic mats. And any suggestions there? I guess any decibel reduction in noise would provide significantly better environment.
Like you, I also have interest in LS only because of its quietness, as music reproduction is extremely important to me. Well, reliability too. Benz S class is even quieter, but they are not very reliable.
You could try to add more sound proofing, but I dont think it would make a huge difference for what your after. The road nose, from the tires, the engine, the AC system the guy on a Harley next to you.. its a quite car, but Im not sure you would really appreciate the color of a tube amp without the usable dynamic range. Everyone has unique hearing and tastes, so its just an opinion, but I focused on taking a budget and then breaking down the amps, the drivers, the crossovers and the custom work to be done to have a system that was all paired to be used together. Almost a grand of my work was custom fabrication for the sub and amps, electronics etc. But we also "tuned" the sub in the trunk to the interior which took some work, and I have to say a lot of power. Not so much RMS, but dynamic headroom so that amps dont clip when the dynamic parts of the music hit. as it is i have about 1000 watts with 6db of headroom on 3 separate amps, but only have one pair of separates up front, I like the less, but high quality and designed well is more mentality. I also only run one 10" JL sub in the back, but its tuned such a way to provide some amazing bottom end.
The LS is a wonderful car to wrap a good sound system around, but in the end it still a noise generating mobile environment. When I use my UE or Westone custom IEMS into hand crafted head phone amps with very high quality materiel I begin to realize how good it can be, and personally put more money into environments I can control to get all the dynamic range i can with a very low noise floor.. nothing like David Gilmore or Joe Satriani sneaking up on you out of the darkness with a blissful punch :-)
In the End no one can tell you what you like, were obviously just speaking to our own likes, bottom line do what works for you, enjoy it passionately
03-06-12, 10:19 PM
#97
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Thanks Mikey and CMasten for responses. I really greatly appreciate all the input as it helps me to gradually form the idea what I could do.
So, I get your basic drift here, you both are saying I probably won’t benefit that much from Milbert, in the context of a noisy environment, preceding electronics etc. Those are points well taken, and I will consider now to go more in the line with what you did, with good quality speakers and decent ss amps.
Mikey, in ideal world, I would take even the source out, get some Italian tube preamps, install a mini car computer, feed high resolution files, or at least Sony SACD car source unit. Then install RAAL tweeters there (I’ve seen them installed in one car), use Milbert and stuff like that. But I understand that it might be overkill and lots of dough and uncertainty of benefits.
CMasten, I almost wish I lived a bit closer to CA, so I could hear your system. That would help me a lot to determine how satisfied I would be with similar setup. Based on your tedious efforts, it should be quite good. I live in Chicago, so there must be good installers here, but I don’t know how to even select them for the job. Can you give me some guidance what should I ask/expect from installer to know they will do a good job? Your installer seems to have gone to quite extensive measurement and testing to get good sound. I would love to find someone like that.
And I’m so glad you mentioned IEM’s. I don’t own any, but was just thinking about it recently, to go that route. Have you used them in the car with good portable amp and do they sound better than your car sound system? I guess they would attenuate serious amount of background noise as well so it might provide double benefit.
Do you like better UE or Westone? I was intrigued a lot lately with reviews on ACS units, never heard of them before those reviews.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/acs-t2...dphones_review
http://www.head-fi.org/t/223406/acs-...horough-review
So, I get your basic drift here, you both are saying I probably won’t benefit that much from Milbert, in the context of a noisy environment, preceding electronics etc. Those are points well taken, and I will consider now to go more in the line with what you did, with good quality speakers and decent ss amps.
Mikey, in ideal world, I would take even the source out, get some Italian tube preamps, install a mini car computer, feed high resolution files, or at least Sony SACD car source unit. Then install RAAL tweeters there (I’ve seen them installed in one car), use Milbert and stuff like that. But I understand that it might be overkill and lots of dough and uncertainty of benefits.
CMasten, I almost wish I lived a bit closer to CA, so I could hear your system.
That would help me a lot to determine how satisfied I would be with similar setup. Based on your tedious efforts, it should be quite good. I live in Chicago, so there must be good installers here, but I don’t know how to even select them for the job. Can you give me some guidance what should I ask/expect from installer to know they will do a good job? Your installer seems to have gone to quite extensive measurement and testing to get good sound. I would love to find someone like that.And I’m so glad you mentioned IEM’s. I don’t own any, but was just thinking about it recently, to go that route. Have you used them in the car with good portable amp and do they sound better than your car sound system? I guess they would attenuate serious amount of background noise as well so it might provide double benefit.
Do you like better UE or Westone? I was intrigued a lot lately with reviews on ACS units, never heard of them before those reviews.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/acs-t2...dphones_review
http://www.head-fi.org/t/223406/acs-...horough-review
03-07-12, 09:09 PM
#98
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Thanks Mikey and CMasten for responses. I really greatly appreciate all the input as it helps me to gradually form the idea what I could do.
So, I get your basic drift here, you both are saying I probably won’t benefit that much from Milbert, in the context of a noisy environment, preceding electronics etc. Those are points well taken, and I will consider now to go more in the line with what you did, with good quality speakers and decent ss amps.
Mikey, in ideal world, I would take even the source out, get some Italian tube preamps, install a mini car computer, feed high resolution files, or at least Sony SACD car source unit. Then install RAAL tweeters there (I’ve seen them installed in one car), use Milbert and stuff like that. But I understand that it might be overkill and lots of dough and uncertainty of benefits.
CMasten, I almost wish I lived a bit closer to CA, so I could hear your system. That would help me a lot to determine how satisfied I would be with similar setup. Based on your tedious efforts, it should be quite good. I live in Chicago, so there must be good installers here, but I don’t know how to even select them for the job. Can you give me some guidance what should I ask/expect from installer to know they will do a good job? Your installer seems to have gone to quite extensive measurement and testing to get good sound. I would love to find someone like that.
And I’m so glad you mentioned IEM’s. I don’t own any, but was just thinking about it recently, to go that route. Have you used them in the car with good portable amp and do they sound better than your car sound system? I guess they would attenuate serious amount of background noise as well so it might provide double benefit.
Do you like better UE or Westone? I was intrigued a lot lately with reviews on ACS units, never heard of them before those reviews.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/acs-t2...dphones_review
http://www.head-fi.org/t/223406/acs-...horough-review
So, I get your basic drift here, you both are saying I probably won’t benefit that much from Milbert, in the context of a noisy environment, preceding electronics etc. Those are points well taken, and I will consider now to go more in the line with what you did, with good quality speakers and decent ss amps.
Mikey, in ideal world, I would take even the source out, get some Italian tube preamps, install a mini car computer, feed high resolution files, or at least Sony SACD car source unit. Then install RAAL tweeters there (I’ve seen them installed in one car), use Milbert and stuff like that. But I understand that it might be overkill and lots of dough and uncertainty of benefits.
CMasten, I almost wish I lived a bit closer to CA, so I could hear your system.
That would help me a lot to determine how satisfied I would be with similar setup. Based on your tedious efforts, it should be quite good. I live in Chicago, so there must be good installers here, but I don’t know how to even select them for the job. Can you give me some guidance what should I ask/expect from installer to know they will do a good job? Your installer seems to have gone to quite extensive measurement and testing to get good sound. I would love to find someone like that.And I’m so glad you mentioned IEM’s. I don’t own any, but was just thinking about it recently, to go that route. Have you used them in the car with good portable amp and do they sound better than your car sound system? I guess they would attenuate serious amount of background noise as well so it might provide double benefit.
Do you like better UE or Westone? I was intrigued a lot lately with reviews on ACS units, never heard of them before those reviews.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/acs-t2...dphones_review
http://www.head-fi.org/t/223406/acs-...horough-review
11-17-12, 05:27 AM
#99
Hi, does anyone have any recommendations for a good installer in the Orlando, FL area? I have a 2012 LS460L with ML. The sound is awful with next to no bass. I would like to improve the sound. I've looked at all the work that you guys have done on your cars and would like to do something similar on mine. I'll start with the sub and go from there.
Thanks!
Thanks!
11-17-12, 06:02 PM
#101
Hi, does anyone have any recommendations for a good installer in the Orlando, FL area? I have a 2012 LS460L with ML. The sound is awful with next to no bass. I would like to improve the sound. I've looked at all the work that you guys have done on your cars and would like to do something similar on mine. I'll start with the sub and go from there.
Thanks!
Thanks!
11-18-12, 03:38 PM
#104
Lexus Champion
LMAO... Ultimate Audio does GREAT work...BUT unless your willing to spend AT LEAST $5K they wont touch your car.. they cater to celebs an the like (as do we) but its not worth their time unless u fork out the $$$$.. which is disappointing. but i suppose if u can afford to overlook the regular people so be it... but definitely explore all of your options...actually go there 1st..get a quote..i'd be interested to hear what they have in mind for your car...(fyi you better be a fan of JL audio)
