daryll40

That is EXACTLY right!

bc07

PatsSoxfan,

No vehicle can be completely silent but the LS460 comes close. I had the TSIB completed and the laminated windows installed. This resulted in a considerable improvement. However, before using JMCraney's fix I could hear a muffled wind sound from the passenger's side quite clearly. The noise on the driver's side was much less. After the "fix" both sides were equally quiet. There is almost no sound up to 60 mph in the absence of head wind or with a following wind. A strong cross wind or head wind can still be heard but at a level no louder than my previous LS400 (and it was very quiet).

It is difficult to believe that all the people claiming to experience wind noise are imagining it. The interesting thing about JMCraney's "fix" is that it explains why there are such different reports from different owners (such as wind noise from one or both sides or no wind noise at all).

I have listened very carefully and critically for over 1000 miles of driving in order to make certain that the improvement was not just what I wanted to hear. It is quite real and my very good car is now a great car. There is no way to know whether the "fix" will work as well for everyone. It is very easy to do, however, and the results can certainly be worth the effort.

Mike_TX

PatsSox, I'll just say this: Don't over-analyze this. You'll make yourself crazy, and you might end up disliking a car that you otherwise love.

You've taken steps to correct any problem you had, and if want to take it up a notch and re-do the triangles, that's fine. But when you do, tell yourself it's fixed, turn on the Mark Levinson and enjoy the ride. You have a great car.

.
.

rjm

Unfortunately you won't get much help from Lexus USA Corporate. You will be lucky if they even answer your letters or email. I have dealt with them extensively and they are very NON-RESPONSIVE to customer complaints. They pretty much leave it all up to the dealers. For that reason, I have probably bought my last Lexus. Best of luck with yours.

garyr

OK, Any attorneys out there who own a 460 that would donate their time and file a class action.

I called Lex corp and told them they had long enough (year 1/2) to fix the problem. I liked the car but wanted a 09 and would they help out. They said no and tried pay for an extended warranty. I told them I don't want them to pay for that, but that's all they will do.

I guess I could bring back the car 3 more times here in NJ and than they will have to take it back legally. I would hate to go through all that, just don't have the time or energy.

Just a thought.........

I'm about to do JMCraney's fix and I will send Lexus a bill for my time.

jmcraney

Is 10 minutes of your time worth a First Class postage stamp?

mfno0od

Lucky You! At least U have dealers who care about TSIP and they fix according to that.

Our "Exclusive" Dealer says that these TSIP's are done by carages and workshops in USA for some reason I cant remeber what they told me ,,

jmcraney

I want to share with the readers of this thread the contents of an email that I sent to Lexus two weeks ago. The reason that I am showing you this is I want it to be very clear that I have not asked them for anything. I have not received any sort of acknowledgment from them regarding this email - I guess it really doesn't need one.


May 4, 2008

I bought a new Lexus LS460 in Oct 07. When I got the customer survey that comes along with a new car purchase I entered it electronically and the main thing I said was that I was so embarrassed by the wind noise that I was reluctant to have my friends ride in my new car. I just knew that someone from Lexus customer relations would be contacting me to help get that problem fixed. Time rocked on and nothing from Lexus. I kept trying to figure out if I was imaging this problem or I had a real problem.

One day in January I was in the Costco parking lot about to get in my car and an Indian man (the kind from India, not OK - we have both types here in TX) approached me and asked if that was my car, pointing to my car. I assured him that it was mine and he inquired, with a heavy accent, about any problems I was having with it. I told him I had a wind noise problem. He made that international gesture for frustration, when you sort of flop your hands out as you roll your arms down and said something about his car driving him crazy. His car appeared to be a 2007 LS460. He told me that his dealer, the other DFW dealer, had told him that nothing could be done and if Lexus came up with something they would call him and that had been 6 months ago.

I then decided that it was not my imagination and that I would go back to Sewell and see if I could get some help. They told me that there was a fix for the noise that I was experiencing and that they needed me to leave my car for a day or two. I did that and found out that they had replaced the windows in the front doors. I could not tell that it made any improvement. And along about then I looked on the Internet to see what I could find out about why the front door windows needed to be replaced. I found that many people were experiencing a wind noise problem with their LS460s. At that point I felt that Lexus had knowingly sold me a defective car or one that had a high probability of being defective. I became very resentful about this and I decided to seek some sort of resolution. I called Sewell and spoke to their customer relations person and he advised me to call Lexus customer relations and he gave me an 800 number. I called and was told that I would receive a call back within three days. The call didn't come so another six weeks passed and when I went to Sewell for my first oil change I spoke to their customer relations rep about my concerns. He said that he would call Lexus to get them to call me and I received a call that day. The person I spoke to set me up with an appointment to have the Lexus factory rep look at my car on Apr 10. I left a two-page memo in the car for the rep detailing my concerns. The results of that was a message delivered by Sewell that said that my car was up to specifications and there was nothing else that could be done.

After thinking about that for a few days I decided that legal action was not desirable because you would prevail through delay and besides I have never sued anybody and I really don't like that sort of stuff anyway. I decided that I would just take my lawyer money and use it to buy a new car and move on. I figured that Lexus and Sewell would feel a little guilty about all this and make me a fantastic deal. Wrong. I test-drove a 2008 LS460 and it had the wind noise problem to some extent too.

So, I went home in a real quandary. I had looked on the Internet at some of the things others were saying about their wind noise problem so I decided to look at mine a little more carefully. Everything including my own observations pointed to a problem with the front doors. I looked very carefully and I have to say that it looked like a "battleship quality" design. There just didn't seem to be any possibility of anything that I could see could cause the problems that I was experiencing. I then decided to remove the little plastic triangle shaped trim at the front corner of the front door windows. That is a bold step to do something like that to an $80,000 car that is 6 months old. When I looked at that I instantly knew there was a problem there. There were several obvious paths for air infiltration and because it is located near the base of the side mirror there are probably some concentrated air currents too. I had a tube of silicone seal so I used that to seal up the areas that I thought were problems, a process that took about 10 minutes to do both sides and used about a quarter of a $4 tube of sealant. I let it dry for 24 hours and test-drove it and the results were stunning, no wind noise and a big improvement in the isolation from outside noise. This is the car you told me was up to spec and there was nothing else that could be done for it. I wanted to share the good news with you with the expectation that you would use my information to get yourself and your customers out of a terrible mess. I shared my information with Sewell and that night I had a call from one of your customer relations people that I thought that was going to be a thank you for sharing my find. That person was calling to tell me again how sorry you were that I was still unhappy but the car was performing as it was expected to do. I explained to her that I had fixed my car and that I was now very pleased with it. And she wanted to know if the dealer was aware of that. I assured her that I had sent an email to the dealership telling them all was well.

I waited a couple of days expecting a call from Lexus thanking me for the information. When I didn’t hear anything I decided to call to see if Lexus was aware of what I had found. I told the person that took my call what I wanted and they said someone would call me back but a callback didn’t come. I then got the email address for the person who I had spoken to several months ago, (name withheld) I think, and sent her an email with details of what I had discovered. I then got an email from your (name withheld) admonishing me for using Lexus’ internal email server. I called again and insisted that I speak to a management person. After a long hold, I spoke to a very nice person – I think this person was (name withheld) - and she told me she understood that I was trying to get some information to Lexus and that I should enter it through your Lexus.com site via the “contact us” link and she would try to see that it got to somebody who could appreciate it. I made a couple of tries at that but since your site is really not structured to accept an input like mine – there is no category for giving you information – I was never sure that you got my details.

About then I got an email from (name withheld) asking that I submit my proposal in writing. I was very pleased and immediately got my information into hard copy and mailed it, in a larger brown envelope, via First Class USPS mail on April 25th.

On April 30th I called Lexus to confirm that you had received my information. After a long hold I spoke to (name withheld) and explained that I wanted to confirm that you got my package of information. She said that she would have someone call me. On May 2nd I did finally get a call from one of your snooty attorneys - she made me so mad I didn’t get her name and I hung up on her – telling me that Toyota was not interested in my ideas and inventions.

Are these people I mentioned Toyota/Lexus employees? I guess it is possible that we are both victims here – maybe I have been caught in some sort of Internet pfishing deal. Sometimes it feels like I am dealing with the Keystone Cops instead of a luxury automobile manufacturer.

I am not selling anything or seeking a reward or compensation. I am not seeking publicity - I am a very private person. I don’t want to embarrass you and I have tried not to do that.

I am aware that many other LS460 owners are having a wind noise problems too – it is all over the Internet. You had to know that my car had a possibility of having this problem when you sold it to me. You evaluated my car just a few weeks ago and told me that nothing else could be done. There even seems to be some evidence that there is a campaign to convince people that this problem is imaginary. I assure you there was a problem with my car. The problem was so annoying I was going to have to get rid of the car so I could get some relief. I fixed it in about 10 minutes for about $1 in materials. I believe that something like what I did to fix my car could fix the wind noise problems that some of your other customers are experiencing and I believe that the 08 LS460 that I test drove could benefit from that kind of fix too. If it is a remedy for some of them it would also help you.

I want to share that information with you and I have tried to send it to you several times. I am unable to divine from anything so far, if you have received my information. Or if you have received it and don’t “get it.” Or if you have looked at it and see that it is OBE because you were already aware of the things that I found and are in the process of getting a fix out to help everyone who suffers. The only indication I am getting from you is that you are not interested in my ideas. I have not tried to sell any ideas or inventions to you – I am trying to share information. A good thing for you to have done would have been for you to look at my correspondence carefully, thank me for pointing that out to you and sent me a coupon for a free oil change to help compensate me for the postage and the multiple trips to the dealership trying to get this problem resolved. I would have been happy.

My car is now exceptionally quiet. I didn’t know it was possible to make a car as quiet as mine. It doesn’t even have a whisper of air noise around either door. I have no reason to continue to pursue this – I should just be pleased with my car and let it go. I am still mystified as to why you are working so diligently to keep me from telling you about this. It is conspicuous that many of your customers are unhappy and that your reputation is suffering.

There are other ways for me to get my information out. So, if you are not interested I will just move on to share it some other way. We are a connected society today and the Internet is a very powerful tool for sharing. I will continue to try to keep you informed if I find anything new in this regard. Anything that I send you is FYI of course.

Please don’t have one of your attorneys call me again with a warning about “ideas and inventions.” I would like to let this cool off and I hope you understand the wisdom of doing that too.

Respectfully,

(name withheld)

topgun04

Jmc, I wouldn't get discourage at all about the lack of response from Lexus. I worked for a big corporation for 21 years before I retired.. In big corporation, response from a letter like your take a lot of level of homework, reviewing and debate. It involve Marketing, engineering, legal and a lot of department that we probably don't know existing in Lexus.. First they have to define the problem, test out the fix in all kind of weather condition and how long the fix will last and figure out why it slip through the engineering and manufacturing and quality assurance etc... Then engineering, marketing and legal will weight in about whether they will acknowledge the fix actually work and put it out as TSIB or other form that customer get the fix. And there is going to be a lot of tuff battle (why wouldn't engineering guy find that out themselves?? etc. etc..) At the end, whoever own the LS460 program will have to make that call.. So at the end you may or may not get any acknowledgement of your work. It sucks, but it is generally how big corporation with big program works...

As a potential owner of an LS (I am down to 09 CLS550, Jaugar XF SC and LS460 to replace our CLK55 convertible since the lease will be up in a month), I appreciate the knowledge of the wind problem and the feed back of the potential fix.

jmcraney

I recently returned from a 1,300-mile road trip. It provided me a lot of different conditions and time to reflect on the LS460 “Wind Noise” problem. I believe that I now have an explanation for nearly everyone.

Before I get into all that stuff I want to say that my car performed very well. I drove in some very heavy rain on Interstate highways, passed and was passed by a variety of vehicles including some very large trucks. One of the things that I noticed was how well the car handled on the wet roads and while passing those large trucks. It was quiet and stable - no buffeting. I felt very safe. My other vehicle is a 2004 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited and my previous Lexus was a 1997 LS400 Coach Edition. I went up and down some steep hills and found the paddle shifter to be very handy. The gas mileage averaged 27.5 MPG and I was driving 75 MPH much of the time. I did notice that it had some “Road Noise” on certain roads. It was exceptionally quiet on roads that were very smooth.

Now back to the “Wind Noise” problem. For the purpose of trying to understand what is going on with the LS460s let’s take a group of 100 people and let them form a circle around us. And we will ask half of the people to be “wind noise” and the other half to be “road noise.” Then we will ask everyone to say ahhhh for a while. Then we will ask one group to be silent. None of us will be able to tell which group is now saying ahhhh. Almost none of us will be able to say with any certainty that half the noise is gone. Some will not be able to distinguish that there was any reduction in the sound level. That may be the sort of problem that we have in trying to cure of wind noise. We may be letting the road noise mask or confuse any progress we make on the wind noise.

The best way I have found to sort this out is to find a road surface that is very smooth and doesn’t have a lot of traffic. Mature (old-worn) asphalt and concrete road surfaces are often very smooth while the newer surfaces have a lot of texture that is built-in to deter hydroplaning. You need to find one of those very smooth roads. Road noise has two components – one is the noise that is conducted into your car, sort of like your tires being a stylus on a vinyl record and the other is the sound that the tires make that gets into your car because your car is not very soundproof (poor noise isolation) and both of these components are directly related to the texture of the road surface and easily confused with wind noise. I have seen lots of reports from LS460 owner saying that their wind noise problem starts around 50 MPH. One thing that might be happening here is that the frequency of the road noise – frequency is somewhat dependent on road texture and speed, increasing in frequency as the car goes faster – may be moving into the range that can be heard by many people and it could also be moving into a frequency range that some people find particularly noticeable or irritating. They may have wind noise or road noise or both. If you can find that smooth road surface for your test you can be sure that you have all of the road noise silenced and then you can concentrate on figuring out what is going on with the wind noise. We will work on the road noise later.

When you start driving on that magical “smooth road” (little or no traffic or other noise contributors) you will think you are there - that silence you have been seeking. But we have more work to do to get things sorted out.

Now we have to decide if the “noise isolation” is as good as it should be. Noise isolation is what protects us from the sounds that are occurring outside the car, and they include the sounds of passing vehicles, the sound that the air makes as we displace it with our car, the sounds that the tires of our car make as they pass over the road surface, the sound of air colliding as a result of the large vehicles ahead of us (akin to wake turbulence that airplanes encounter), rain and water sounds (but not rain drops colliding directly with the car – that’s a different sort or problem), etc. To decide if the noise isolation is adequate we need to drive down the magical “smooth road” and let an average car (not exceptionally noisy or exceptionally quiet) overtake us – you should test both sides – and see how we perceive that. If things are up to par, that passing car should just slide by unnoticed. And if it slides by unnoticed you could probably safely say that you don’t have a noise isolation problem. That leaves you pointed back to a “road noise” problem.

If at this point you decide you have a noise isolation problem then we have a little more work to do. Several of us have identified the sealing under the triangle trim as a noise isolation problem area and we have a report from one of our discussion participants saying that he got a bigger improvement by changing to the laminated glass. Based on that, we have to assume that the glass and the trim are both important elements to in the noise isolation equation and there may be a third important element that we are unaware of.

Let’s call our circle of ahhhers back and this time let one group be “triangle trim noise isolation” and the other be “laminated glass noise isolation.” We will start off by having both say ahhhh. Then we will have one group be silent – a simulated repair of that area. Again, almost none of us will be able to say with any certainty that half the noise is gone. Some will not be able to distinguish that there was any reduction in the sound level.

The point here is that although many people reported that changing the glass made no difference it probably provided some real benefit. And some of the other things that Lexus has done that seemed to offer no improvement were probably beneficial too. If the sealing under the triangle trim is already adequate then doing it again will not provide any benefit. But, if it is not sealed properly either because of a manufacturing defect or premature failure, then sealing it is necessary. It might not provide a noticeable improvement but you can’t get there without doing it.

Okay, now lets assume that the noise isolation is where we think it ought to be. We are back to the road noise. You may have gotten rid of a major portion or some portion of the road noise by improving the noise isolation. When you improved the noise isolation you reduced the noise from the tires that was getting into your car. You will still have the “stylus effect” noise and if that needs to be reduced you don’t have many options. About the only way to improve that is go to a different tire. I have learned, through experience, that all tires are not equal as far as road noise. I have replaced the Bridgestones that came on my Sienna, after they wore out, with Michelin touring tires that I chose based on their rating for noise and it has made a big difference – it is just much quieter now. We sometimes let others make our tire decisions or just buy the most expensive ones with the expectation that the performance will be good in all areas. When you get the noise isolation up to the level that is attainable for this car you might be satisfied with the road noise that is typical for the factory tires. On very smooth roads there is no road noise and there is no noise, period. I find the road noise objectionable on certain roads but even at its worst it is not very loud – you don’t have to raise your voice to talk over it – and the reason that you hear it may be because the car is so quiet (I know, I know, I didn’t want to say that but it may be true).

And then there is a separate issue that is “air leakage” for want of a better term. This is the kind of swishing noise you hear around the windows and in my case was rather severe. The only thing that seemed to help this was sealing under the triangle trim. This is a more complex issue and has to do with the angle and gustiness of the ambient winds. I don’t seem to have any air leakage problems any more and that all went away when I did the sealing thing. I did a visual inspection of the door and the design seems very solid and I doubt that there will be many air leaks, except maybe under the triangle trim, although any air leaks in a “quiet car” will seem very noticeable.

So, what now?

Get Lexus to do everything they will for you. Get that glass replacement and mirrors too. They may come up with something to seal under the triangle trim. They have the engineering data and should be able to come up with something better than what I have suggested. It would be better that they do it for you because they keep the records for your car and you will want it noted in writing that the wind noise has been fixed.

Your car can be made quiet. Mine is very quiet.

If they refuse to help you or you don’t want to spend a lot of time or $5/gal gasoline you can do the triangle trim sealing trick yourself or get it done at a body shop.

ES350Bob

jm,

I would not get discouraged in your efforts made directly to Lexus, it is unfortunate that you have experienced the responses you have but it does not take away from your idea and remedy being viable for owners who can approach their dealers with it.

Clearly your repair idea and instructions will help many LS owners as from the poll of owners and other auto forums it is obvious there are many owners who would welcome your findings.

You may try to remember for those who do not get the complete benefit from your triangle area idea and detailed instructions, there are other causes too like missing underside plugs.

If you have time and inclination, maybe you could review ES350 Wind noise thread on ES350 Forum, they also have this triangle, and who knows you may be on to something for them too.

Good luck to you, and keep your chin up, no matter.

Bear60

According to tire engineers, about 80% of the tire noise is transmitted to the interior through the chassis and body itself with just 20% through the air.

WhitBaby

JEFF'S DA MAN!!!!


Finally got around to doing Jeff's silicone fix.

It worked on my '08 LS!! Wind noise is virtually gone!!

I did it pretty much like Jeff suggested with the exception that I used Permatex Silicone Adhesive Sealant because it was available in black. I got it at Wally World for $3.47+.

As Jeff's Rev A shows...there were 'cavities' in the weather stripping junctures at the corners of the triangles.
These cavities were about 1/8" wide and 1\4" long. Subtle probing with the shank end of a 3/32" drill bit confirmed that these cavities went down into the door's interior. When filled the, then, cavities would show, so I used the black stuff.

It seems that these two cavities, along with the three, open indexing holes, and gaps in the verticle joint, behind the triangle, would offer plenty of opportunity for mirror-deflected turbulance to find a path around the OEM weather stripping and result in the incessant, irritating 'whooshing' at speed.

FYI- Don't be concerned that the reattached triangular pieces won't be as strong as the OEM double-sided tape mounting. Believe me when I say the silicone'd adhesion is MUCH stronger than the OEM tape. I used plenty of silicon adhesive, about a third of the 3 oz tube, and cleaned up as I went.

So...thanks to all, particularly Jeff, for all the suggestions.

Whit

jmcraney

Whit,

Congratulations and thanks for the feedback.

I hope after you have a chance to drive your car a little you are going to feel as smug as I do. I just feel so important driving around in my quiet car.

Regards,

Jeff

jmcraney

This is a quote from a Private Mail that I received from an LS460 owner in Saudi Arabia

Begin Quote
hello there my friend
im sa'ad from saudi arabia
and i saw ur replays on the wind noise problem,and alot of people here in saudi arabia are having this problem
and im planing to go to my local dealrs to show them ur brilliant idea
and i know that alot of people will be glad to hear that this might solve their problem or atleast the wind noise will be much quiter then before
so what im gonna do is to try taking 4 or 5 of ur replys (copy and paste) and show it to my local dealrs plus im gonna email it to all gulf dealrs
so can u please tell me which replys should i copy ? and also which picture should i take
and thanks so much,hope that u'll get the credit that u deserve from Lexus or toyota
and thaaanks again my friend
End Quote

I am sure there is some confusion for readers who have not followed this discussion from the beginning.

The information that you need to know to seal your triangle trim is contained in Response#9 and the pictures in response #10. There is one exception: a couple of our responders have wisely suggested using black sealant instead of the clear sealant shown in my picture. That is a cosmetic thing and black would certainly be better. One of our respondents has used black Permatex silicone sealant that is available from Walmart and reported he got good results. The images in #10 have already been flattened so I am unable to change that easily.

DIYers reported improvement in their "wind noise" problem in responses #53, 67,101,105,114,122 and 133. The ownership spectrum for those reporting improvement included LS460s and LS460Ls and both 2007 and 2008 model years. (I believe that this will apply to the LS600s too)

There was one DIY report of no improvement after doing the triangle trim sealing.