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How loud is loud in comparing the timing belt vs. timing chain on the LS430 vs. the LS460 ? Is a timing belt a lot/noticeable driving down the road, or in idle mode ? How about driving, does it effect performance any bit ?
As a maintenance thing, the LS430's timing belt can be $800+ to replace(not an easy DIY if one was to attempt it) and the LS460 has a chain that never needs to be replaced, it could be good thing on this aspect.
I've ALWAYS wondering this....how bad is it actually ?
You can't hear it from inside the car, but outside the LS460 has a louder engine than the 430. The LS460 has direct injection - along with port injection - and the direct injection high pressure pumps tick. You can here it outside of the car...inside the car? You'd have to have k-9 hearing ability to notice it.
A lot of cars are going back to timing chains and it's a very good thing. Timing belts are quieter, but in all honesty I don't think chains are exactly noisy anyway. It's the direct injection that has some noise. A timing chain should last the life of the engine as long as you keep up with your oil changes - if you put 300,000 miles on a car, you'll save yourself 3 timing belt changes (maybe $3,000).
I noticed the 460 doesn't have the feature where you can hold down the unlock button to put down all the windows and open the sunroof like you could do on the 430. I miss that feature on the boiling hot summer days in FL, great way to cool down the car before getting in.
A timing chain sounds good versus having to change a timing belt, but I know many manufacturers that switched over (like Infiniti and GM) have had issues with them where it causes major engine damage. The chain loosens over time, actuator problems, proper lubrication, etc.
In the old days, overhead head valve engines had small chains so it wasn't a big deal. Basically every American engine was overhead valve until like the late 80's and they all had timing chains, there was rarely a problem.
Overhead cam engines (basically every engine now except for GM V8s) have a design that requires really long belts or chains. More issues with a long chain.
Hopefully Toyota/Lexus has figure out the all issues, but I have a feeling many will die before their time because of it.
Here's a modern timing chain on an newer overhead cam Chevy V6 with vs an Chevy Small Block V8 with overhead valve
I noticed the 460 doesn't have the feature where you can hold down the unlock button to put down all the windows and open the sunroof like you could do on the 430. I miss that feature on the boiling hot summer days in FL, great way to cool down the car before getting in.
It can, you just have to have that feature activated.
In the old days, overhead head valve engines had small chains so it wasn't a big deal. Basically every American engine was overhead valve until like the late 80's and they all had timing chains, there was rarely a problem.
Actually, in the "old days" 60's through early 80's, overhead valve chain-drive timing had serious problems due to the factory camshaft gear having nylon-clad teeth to reduce noise. The nylon would wear and break off. Pieces would clog the oil filter, stretched timing chains would jump the cam gear due to the missing nylon covering over the cam gear teeth. Happened often and at low mileage (50K +/- miles). GM (Caddy's, Chevy, Olds, Pontiac, Buick - including big block V-8s) as well as Ford 302, 351 engines. Cam gear was replaced with all-metal gear and often double row timing chain and gears as shown in your pic.
Actually, in the "old days" 60's through early 80's, overhead valve chain-drive timing had serious problems due to the factory camshaft gear having nylon-clad teeth to reduce noise. The nylon would wear and break off. Pieces would clog the oil filter, stretched timing chains would jump the cam gear due to the missing nylon covering over the cam gear teeth. Happened often and at low mileage (50K +/- miles). GM (Caddy's, Chevy, Olds, Pontiac, Buick - including big block V-8s) as well as Ford 302, 351 engines. Cam gear was replaced with all-metal gear and often double row timing chain and gears as shown in your pic.
They also use nylon gears and plastic chain tensioners and guides on modern overhead cam engines and also had problems. The issue was the material used. Just like anything else, a sound design can be screwed up by using the wrong materials.
The point is, the smaller chain design on OHV vs OHC engines meant less problems (all things being equal) That doesn't mean the Big 3 never screwed it up when they tried to do something like make it quieter. But most people never gave their timing chains a second thought, it lasted the life of the vehicle. Even the ones with this feature held up well.
I actually had a Cadillac that had nylon timing gears and it never was an issue even being 30 years old. Try that on a car with a timing belt.
Last edited by DaveGS4; 08-28-16 at 05:42 AM.
Reason: move forward, there was no mention
I noticed the 460 doesn't have the feature where you can hold down the unlock button to put down all the windows and open the sunroof like you could do on the 430. I miss that feature on the boiling hot summer days in FL, great way to cool down the car before getting in.
Isn't that option on all Lexus vehicles? I remember being able to do that on my 2001 GS3. As the previous poster stated, you may have to activate it, Carista is your friend.
Regarding timing chains, I've heard Audi has had chain problems (stretch) and Cadillac on their V6's six or seven years ago. Toyota has been using timing chains for the past nine years on their V6 engines...I don't think they are known for problems. As for the LS460, I haven't heard of any timing chain problems.
A lot of techs will tell you that oil changes are very important on timing chain engines. I've read that soot/carbon deposits in dirty oil can get between the internals of the chain...cause wear and stretching. So I think maintaining proper oil change intervals, maybe using a high quality synthetic, a high quality filter, goes a long way. I know a service advisor at a Caddy dealer and he told me the biggest problems with their chain stretch situation were from customers who didn't change or check their oil level regularly. He said the Caddy's that were actually rental fleet vehicles - that they serviced - never had a single chain issue, because they were always brought in regularly for their oil changes. And they only used conventional oil in those vehicles, but the point is the oil was changed regularly. Meanwhile he had customers just going off the oil light monitor, going 10,000 plus miles on changes...coming in with the thing two quarts low. Those people had chain problems.
Its an an interesting topic and it appears it's here to stay because so many vehicles use the chain nowadays. It'll be interesting to see how long these things can last.
Wow, just read all about it. Seems like a neat tool. I entered my vehicle info and it lists tons of items that can be customized I didn't even know about. I think I'll order it and try it out. I noticed they raised the price but t $50 for the tool and a one week subscription it isn't too bad. I don't foresee having to constantly change the settings warranting the permanent subscription. Thanks to both of you for bringing it to my attention.
I actually had a Cadillac that had nylon timing gears and it never was an issue even being 30 years old. Try that on a car with a timing belt.
The caddy's with nylon camshaft gear teeth were not as prone to failure for one obvious reason: they weren't driven hard! The A-body muscle cars, Corvettes, Mustangs, et. al. had real issues with the nylon cam gear, and those who knew what could happen at WOT took no chances and replaced the cam gear with an all metal gear (along with a new chain and crank gear, of course). Double row was the most reliable way to go. It was telling that you couldn't even buy the nylon teeth cam gear in the after-market.
So, it wasn't the chain that was the problem, it was the nylon cam gear teeth - the weakest link in the timing setup that resulted in, if you were lucky, only a jumped chain and an engine that wouldn't start, or at worst, bent valves.
Regarding timing chains, I've heard Audi has had chain problems (stretch) and Cadillac on their V6's six or seven years ago. Toyota has been using timing chains for the past nine years on their V6 engines...I don't think they are known for problems. As for the LS460, I haven't heard of any timing chain problems.
A lot of techs will tell you that oil changes are very important on timing chain engines. I've read that soot/carbon deposits in dirty oil can get between the internals of the chain...cause wear and stretching. So I think maintaining proper oil change intervals, maybe using a high quality synthetic, a high quality filter, goes a long way. I know a service advisor at a Caddy dealer and he told me the biggest problems with their chain stretch situation were from customers who didn't change or check their oil level regularly. He said the Caddy's that were actually rental fleet vehicles - that they serviced - never had a single chain issue, because they were always brought in regularly for their oil changes. And they only used conventional oil in those vehicles, but the point is the oil was changed regularly. Meanwhile he had customers just going off the oil light monitor, going 10,000 plus miles on changes...coming in with the thing two quarts low. Those people had chain problems.
Its an an interesting topic and it appears it's here to stay because so many vehicles use the chain nowadays. It'll be interesting to see how long these things can last.
Isn't it amazing that with all of the technology and advancements of the internal combustion engine, the most important thing hasn't changed: regular oil changes.
Old oil also turns sludgy and won't pass through the oil drains, and won't flow off the oil slinger mounted around the timing chain & gears (on old V-8s).
Isn't it amazing that with all of the technology and advancements of the internal combustion engine, the most important thing hasn't changed: regular oil changes.
Old oil also turns sludgy and won't pass through the oil drains, and won't flow off the oil slinger mounted around the timing chain & gears (on old V-8s).
It is certainly important, and I have to admit I'm not a big fan of these extended oil change intervals...I understand 3,000 miles isn't necessary anymore, but I don't feel comfortable going 10,000 miles. In fact I don't even feel comfortable going 7,500 on a high quality synthetic - I'll do it - but I don't feel great about it.
They keep extending these factory oil change intervals out further and further, yet engines are harder on oil...direct injection and timing chains. The chains can shear the oil and the force that direct injection sprays fuel into the cylinders can lead to byproducts of combustion entering the oil more than before...and throw in these piston rings that fit loosely to prevent friction and improve fuel economy. There's probably more engine problems now than anytime in the last fifteen years. How many manufacturers are replacing rings on their cars now? Honda, GM, Audi, VW, Mazda...probably more. Those are huge jobs.
08-27-16, 04:58 PM
