First place is the LS .... whats next ?
12-20-15, 07:12 PM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
Looking for a car like the LS that isn't the LS, I'd suggest a Hyundai Equus, or a new model Hyundai Genesis 5.0.
12-22-15, 04:49 PM
#17
2014 Equus. All the features of an Ultra LS430, 429 HP, more rear legroom.
You can find new 2014 models for $45,000. Used with 10K miles for $30,000
I've two of 'em. 2014 & 2015 Signature models.
104,000 miles on the 2014 & $2000 in total maintenance costs.
You can find new 2014 models for $45,000. Used with 10K miles for $30,000
I've two of 'em. 2014 & 2015 Signature models.
104,000 miles on the 2014 & $2000 in total maintenance costs.
12-22-15, 05:17 PM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Not as refined, or as well finished as an LS though. Value proposition is good nonetheless.
12-22-15, 05:40 PM
#19
I think to get the road manners and feature set of an LS you probably need to step up to an S Class Mercedes. A bit more money and not quite the same feature set. This is what Toyota was seeking to beat with the LS, not a Korean car. I do think the Genesis and Equus will get there someday but I see a big disappointment coming when you are not only looking for features but road manners and a solid feel. I do agree that Hyundai is looking to follow the same road as the Lexus line but they didn't start from the same place.
12-22-15, 06:36 PM
#20
Racer
Thread Starter
My LS is the first V8 car I have owned. Its BY FAR the best engine I've ever had.
But my next car will probably be a 6 cylinder and it wont be rear wheel drive. I prefer front wheel drive.
I am going to drive an A6 this weekend.
But my next car will probably be a 6 cylinder and it wont be rear wheel drive. I prefer front wheel drive.
I am going to drive an A6 this weekend.
12-22-15, 08:00 PM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by fensterlip
I think to get the road manners and feature set of an LS you probably need to step up to an S Class Mercedes. A bit more money and not quite the same feature set. This is what Toyota was seeking to beat with the LS, not a Korean car. I do think the Genesis and Equus will get there someday but I see a big disappointment coming when you are not only looking for features but road manners and a solid feel. I do agree that Hyundai is looking to follow the same road as the Lexus line but they didn't start from the same place.
All the nonsense about a "Korean car" is just that, nonsense. That's what people said about "Japanese cars" too.
12-22-15, 10:20 PM
#22
Pole Position
I thought the K900 was closer to the LS than the Genesis/Equus?
I haven't driven any of those, but I've rode in a few Genesis and it's a nice car and a great value new, but it's just not a Lexus. And I don't think Hyundai/Kia will ever get to that level because they shouldn't get to that level. Consumer reports indicates that the Korean luxury cars will have more problems than a comparable Lexus and my personal experiences with Hyundai is that the cars break and I'd rather have a reliable car without a warranty than a car that needs to use its warranty. I'm sure it's great for people who live paycheck to paycheck and need the financial predictability of a new, warrantied car.
My Elantra made a weird sound maybe once a month when it was new? My LS has never made a weird sound and it's 15 years old. My Elantra had a few rattles by the time it hit 20k miles. My LS has 1 rattle that's intermittent which actually has a fix, but I can't be bothered to fix it.
I have choices when it comes to my machines and the Japanese luxury paradigm - ironing out every bit of cantankerousness in a machine and just leaving a flawless jewel with a mountain of torque, no NVH, and big opposed piston radial mounted calipers, really thoughtful, conservative designs - is what I'm all about.
Go drive an Optima/Sonata and then an Accord. The Korean twins will be pretty close to the Accord, but it's obvious that they didn't spend the extra time to bake in that last 10% of suspension calibration, or steering accuracy, or easy cold starting and smooth fast idling.
I think Korean cars are great values, I think a ton of people would be lucky to own one. And they have some amazing features. My local Kia dealer has an Optima EX listed at like $23,500. It's a brand new car that gets 35 mpg, has a heated steering wheel, and folding power mirrors, and an 8" lcd screen! Dang! That's a smoking deal.
But mechanically, it's inferior. It's not as tightly integrated as the Accord.
These Japanese flagships are so good because the basic design has been figured out for 30-40 years. As early as 1979, the Japanese were making platforms/layouts that exist to this day. The 2015 Yamaha FJR1300 is like a modern, fast 1979 XS1100. The 1979 Honda GL1100 is perfectly fine as transportation today. And the 1979 Cressida was absolutely instrumental to the 2017 next gen LS. Toyota has had massive volumes of top of the line sedans since the 70s. In fact, Toyota has sold about 550,000 LSs in America since the first LS400. Think of how much they've learned about full size luxury cars from the millions of LSs,GSs,Crowns, and Cressidas.
Conversely, Hyundai was buying second hand tooling from Mitsubishi in the 1970s to make the first Hyundais. They're the 5th or 6th largest automaker. Toyota is perpetually 1 or 2.
Hyundai doesn't have the volumes needed to pay for the investments to make a car that trounces the LS. They can ape the LS and make a contender. But they're not going to upset the status quo. And they're not going to come close to making a car that ages as well as the LS.
Hyundai is too smart to make a serious contender in the dying segment that is the full size luxury sedan. They're content to make the Equus and Genesis and K900 as cars that check the boxes, are supremely comfortable, and good values. But their forte is feature rich, good value cars - not state of the art technical tour de forces.
In motorcycles, the Korean brands make solid bikes that are amazing values. But they are no where near as refined as the Japanese and German bikes. And they shouldn't be. Can you imagine trying to compete with Honda motorcycles? Honda has sold 200 million motorcycles. You'd need an incredible amount of money to hire engineers to figure out the lessons that Honda has learned over the past 60 years of being the state of the art. You should see the stuff that Honda does quietly - Honda made a production HCCI engine in 1991, you wont see that in cars until 2020. Honda patented an infinitely variable transmission in 2004. Toyota is making a platform for 70% of their cars (by volume) meanwhile Hyundai is struggling to meet its volume targets.
And in the world of shareholder value - the capital isn't available. The LS400 program was about 8 billion in modern dollars. Do you think that Hyundai would put up the money to compete in a market of fewer than 100k cars/yr?
Why would Hyundai figure out how to make a Lexus LS or a Honda Cub when they could plow that money into dominating the compact car market or solidifying their hold on the BRIC nations? The answer is that they wouldn't. The leaders are too established and it's too close to disruption from autonomous cars and electric powertrains to make the investment now.
I hope I don't step on any toes, and if you own a K900 and live in Minneapolis, lets get lunch. You drive - I love sitting in big luxury sedans.
But in my mind - the novelty of the LS is that it's such a precise, well thought out, state of the art (in its day) machine. When you get into the K900/Genesis/Equus, you've made some compromises and after you fall down that slippery slope why not just get a Cadenza/Azera/Avalon/Lexus ES, which are almost as nice but an ever better value.
I haven't driven any of those, but I've rode in a few Genesis and it's a nice car and a great value new, but it's just not a Lexus. And I don't think Hyundai/Kia will ever get to that level because they shouldn't get to that level. Consumer reports indicates that the Korean luxury cars will have more problems than a comparable Lexus and my personal experiences with Hyundai is that the cars break and I'd rather have a reliable car without a warranty than a car that needs to use its warranty. I'm sure it's great for people who live paycheck to paycheck and need the financial predictability of a new, warrantied car.
My Elantra made a weird sound maybe once a month when it was new? My LS has never made a weird sound and it's 15 years old. My Elantra had a few rattles by the time it hit 20k miles. My LS has 1 rattle that's intermittent which actually has a fix, but I can't be bothered to fix it.
I have choices when it comes to my machines and the Japanese luxury paradigm - ironing out every bit of cantankerousness in a machine and just leaving a flawless jewel with a mountain of torque, no NVH, and big opposed piston radial mounted calipers, really thoughtful, conservative designs - is what I'm all about.
Go drive an Optima/Sonata and then an Accord. The Korean twins will be pretty close to the Accord, but it's obvious that they didn't spend the extra time to bake in that last 10% of suspension calibration, or steering accuracy, or easy cold starting and smooth fast idling.
I think Korean cars are great values, I think a ton of people would be lucky to own one. And they have some amazing features. My local Kia dealer has an Optima EX listed at like $23,500. It's a brand new car that gets 35 mpg, has a heated steering wheel, and folding power mirrors, and an 8" lcd screen! Dang! That's a smoking deal.
But mechanically, it's inferior. It's not as tightly integrated as the Accord.
These Japanese flagships are so good because the basic design has been figured out for 30-40 years. As early as 1979, the Japanese were making platforms/layouts that exist to this day. The 2015 Yamaha FJR1300 is like a modern, fast 1979 XS1100. The 1979 Honda GL1100 is perfectly fine as transportation today. And the 1979 Cressida was absolutely instrumental to the 2017 next gen LS. Toyota has had massive volumes of top of the line sedans since the 70s. In fact, Toyota has sold about 550,000 LSs in America since the first LS400. Think of how much they've learned about full size luxury cars from the millions of LSs,GSs,Crowns, and Cressidas.
Conversely, Hyundai was buying second hand tooling from Mitsubishi in the 1970s to make the first Hyundais. They're the 5th or 6th largest automaker. Toyota is perpetually 1 or 2.
Hyundai doesn't have the volumes needed to pay for the investments to make a car that trounces the LS. They can ape the LS and make a contender. But they're not going to upset the status quo. And they're not going to come close to making a car that ages as well as the LS.
Hyundai is too smart to make a serious contender in the dying segment that is the full size luxury sedan. They're content to make the Equus and Genesis and K900 as cars that check the boxes, are supremely comfortable, and good values. But their forte is feature rich, good value cars - not state of the art technical tour de forces.
In motorcycles, the Korean brands make solid bikes that are amazing values. But they are no where near as refined as the Japanese and German bikes. And they shouldn't be. Can you imagine trying to compete with Honda motorcycles? Honda has sold 200 million motorcycles. You'd need an incredible amount of money to hire engineers to figure out the lessons that Honda has learned over the past 60 years of being the state of the art. You should see the stuff that Honda does quietly - Honda made a production HCCI engine in 1991, you wont see that in cars until 2020. Honda patented an infinitely variable transmission in 2004. Toyota is making a platform for 70% of their cars (by volume) meanwhile Hyundai is struggling to meet its volume targets.
And in the world of shareholder value - the capital isn't available. The LS400 program was about 8 billion in modern dollars. Do you think that Hyundai would put up the money to compete in a market of fewer than 100k cars/yr?
Why would Hyundai figure out how to make a Lexus LS or a Honda Cub when they could plow that money into dominating the compact car market or solidifying their hold on the BRIC nations? The answer is that they wouldn't. The leaders are too established and it's too close to disruption from autonomous cars and electric powertrains to make the investment now.
I hope I don't step on any toes, and if you own a K900 and live in Minneapolis, lets get lunch. You drive - I love sitting in big luxury sedans.
But in my mind - the novelty of the LS is that it's such a precise, well thought out, state of the art (in its day) machine. When you get into the K900/Genesis/Equus, you've made some compromises and after you fall down that slippery slope why not just get a Cadenza/Azera/Avalon/Lexus ES, which are almost as nice but an ever better value.
12-22-15, 10:27 PM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
How can you dismiss a car you haven't even driven or ridden in? All of the things you said MB and BMW guys said about Toyota in the 80s.
Give them time, especially now that they're going to have their own brand. The K900 and Eauus are both similar to the LS, the Equus is more similar to the LS430, the K900 to fhe LS460. I've not driven a K900 but I have an Equus. Very similar to the LS.
Give them time, especially now that they're going to have their own brand. The K900 and Eauus are both similar to the LS, the Equus is more similar to the LS430, the K900 to fhe LS460. I've not driven a K900 but I have an Equus. Very similar to the LS.
12-22-15, 10:43 PM
#24
Pole Position
The criticism around Toyota was usually xenophobic, anti-free market 'they took our jobs' or 'this car is a tin can' that can't rival my refined european car.
No one ever factually knocked Toyota for reliability, whereas Hyundai and Kia do have reliability issues.
Also, many people knocked Japan for making it easy for Toyota, Nissan, and Honda to pour money into vehicle development which is a game changer. Hyundai is in the midst of pissing off its investors - they have a snowball's chance in hell of getting the R&D budget for a shrinking segment like full size luxury cars.
And the BMW folks were right - Toyota still hasn't caught BMW's signature suspension calibration. But why should Toyota? If Toyota can get cars that handle almost as well but don't have the weird tire wear, suspension bushing issues that BMWs have, that's great for owners who just want to get to work.
And I don't know what's up with the Mercedes folks. I've driven an S65 AMG with fewer than 10k miles, and it's smooth and fast, but it had more rattles than my 01 LS430. That's a non-starter for the AMGs. I guess they like the solid feeling of Mercedes. But most of the time they can't figure out whether the car feels solid because it has a stiff chassis, too much mass, or both. The more base spec S classes seem nice. But I think the E class is usually the best Mercedes. Those are very nice cars.
My point is that the Korean flagships aren't class leading now, the gap will be even more apparent when the next round of cars come out, and the Korean cars are never going to dominate like Lexus LSs because the Korean cars will wear out sooner and Hyundai/Kia can't afford the billions of dollars to compete on long term quality. The Korean cars are (to me) noticeably a step down from the S class and LS. And once I decide that I'm going to take that step down - I may as well get a FWD luxury car because they're cheaper than the Genesis/K900/Equus.
No one ever factually knocked Toyota for reliability, whereas Hyundai and Kia do have reliability issues.
Also, many people knocked Japan for making it easy for Toyota, Nissan, and Honda to pour money into vehicle development which is a game changer. Hyundai is in the midst of pissing off its investors - they have a snowball's chance in hell of getting the R&D budget for a shrinking segment like full size luxury cars.
And the BMW folks were right - Toyota still hasn't caught BMW's signature suspension calibration. But why should Toyota? If Toyota can get cars that handle almost as well but don't have the weird tire wear, suspension bushing issues that BMWs have, that's great for owners who just want to get to work.
And I don't know what's up with the Mercedes folks. I've driven an S65 AMG with fewer than 10k miles, and it's smooth and fast, but it had more rattles than my 01 LS430. That's a non-starter for the AMGs. I guess they like the solid feeling of Mercedes. But most of the time they can't figure out whether the car feels solid because it has a stiff chassis, too much mass, or both. The more base spec S classes seem nice. But I think the E class is usually the best Mercedes. Those are very nice cars.
My point is that the Korean flagships aren't class leading now, the gap will be even more apparent when the next round of cars come out, and the Korean cars are never going to dominate like Lexus LSs because the Korean cars will wear out sooner and Hyundai/Kia can't afford the billions of dollars to compete on long term quality. The Korean cars are (to me) noticeably a step down from the S class and LS. And once I decide that I'm going to take that step down - I may as well get a FWD luxury car because they're cheaper than the Genesis/K900/Equus.
Last edited by airchomper; 12-22-15 at 10:44 PM. Reason: clarity
12-22-15, 10:59 PM
#25
Lexus Fanatic
My point is that the Korean flagships aren't class leading now, the gap will be even more apparent when the next round of cars come out, and the Korean cars are never going to dominate like Lexus LSs because the Korean cars will wear out sooner and Hyundai/Kia can't afford the billions of dollars to compete on long term quality. The Korean cars are (to me) noticeably a step down from the S class and LS. And once I decide that I'm going to take that step down - I may as well get a FWD luxury car because they're cheaper than the Genesis/K900/Equus.
Used they are stupid cheap. You can drive a 2-3 year old Equus certified for what you would pay for a 6-7 year old LS.
I have a Kia minivan right now, and its really nice. I'm interested to see how it ages, but its nicer than any Toyota product out in that price category right now by a wide margin. Interior in some ways is nicer than the LS. No joke.
As for "buying a FWD luxury car", again...thats because you've never driven these cars. I had two FWD ESs, a 300 and a 350. There is no way I would buy an ES350 today over a new Genesis. The only reason to do so would be brand...the Genesis just blows it away. Its no LS, but driving it immediately made me think of the LS. It has that solidity and refinement on the road...the ES doesn't have that. The step down to a FWD entry level car is WAY steeper than it is from an LS to an Equus or even an S Class to an Equus.
The Equus doesn't overshadow the flagship cars yet at all, but an all new one comes out next year and it looks pretty darn nice.
The question was "If you like the LS but couldn't get an LS for whatever reason, and you wanted a car that drives similarly" that car is clearly an Equus to anybody that has driven one. There is not another car on the road that is so clearly designed to be an alternative to the LS, specifically the LS430. There are quite a few LS owners who have gone to the Equus...
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-22-15 at 11:11 PM.
12-22-15, 11:25 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
Read this C&D Compero from when the Eauus came out. They compared it to an LS460L. Guess who won?
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
This is before the Equus refresh for 2014 too which was a huge improvement inside.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
This is before the Equus refresh for 2014 too which was a huge improvement inside.
12-23-15, 08:07 AM
#27
Pole Position
Thank goodness SW15LS is here to tell me what my opinion on the matter should be. Let's just close the thread. If all the LSs in the world were abducted by aliens tomorrow, we should all flock to the second rate Korean limousine.
What a load of my shoulders. Finally, I've come to clarity on the matter. Maybe I'll quit drinking, and my dog will come back.
OH WAIT.
Let's separate the matters of opinion from the matters of fact.
1. I haven't driven any of the Korean limos but I've ridden in enough Genesis to know that it's not the car for me. How in the world can I say, 'my sincere opinion is that I wouldn't like one enough to own it' and then you can say, 'no your opinion is invalid'. Unless you have some omnipotence, you don't know my opinions and how they're informed.
It'd be as asinine as me telling you that you're a sucker for perceived quality and if you think that any of these full size luxury cars should be purchased as engaging machines, you've never even owned or operated something set the 'thrill'. I buy cars that are quiet, and hassle free - saving my pennies for motorcycles and race cars that rip my face off. Once you rip through the gears of a sequential gear box monster that chirps the tires shifting into 4th, you realize that all the road legal showroom stocks cars are equally vapid and the difference between an M3 and a ES350 is like chocolate chip vs regular pancakes while tuned motorcycles and racing prepped cars are as dangerous and flavorful as pufferfish.
The idea of buying a Korean limo for a hassle free experience is laughable. Show me one credible source that says their quality is on par with the LS (non 2007 to 2011 LS460s) and I'll shut up.
I do know that the Azera is more reliable than any of the RWD Limos which is why I'd check one out. It's as quiet going down the road as any Genesis I've sat in. And it'd be cheaper to keep on the road. Just what I like about my LS.
2. I did drive a 2014 ES350 for a long weekend while my car was getting a timing belt, and I've had a few Azeras as rental cars on business. I absolutely know 100% how I like those cars and the truth is that they have a great value proposition - they're quiet and relatively cheap to own.
The Equus won the comparison because of its price. Everyone loves a good deal, right? New LS to New Korean Limo, and in the first few years of ownership, I'm sure the Equus is fine.
But I'm a bottom feeder - I don't buy new cars. There isn't a single person in the world who says that the Korean limos compete on quality with the Lexus LS which is really in a class all its own. The Korean limos are closer to Infiniti's quality than Lexus' quality. I wouldn't want to touch a 10 year old Equus with someone else's 10 foot pole. Whereas I obviously saw the value in my then-13-year-old LS when I saved it from the Ford dealership.
And about what the haters said about Toyota - Toyota had major rust issues (every did) but they've had the quality lead since 1974. Yeah they were basic, but reliability is a luxury all its own. And top of the line Toyotas had some luxury features as early as the late 70s. Although those cars were really only common on the west coast.
There aren't many analogies between Hyundai circa 2015 and Toyota Circa 1975. Obviously Hyundai is comfortable with their value proposition, they dont want to be best in class as much as they want to be the best value in the class. That's great for new car owners, but I ain't that. I'm a dude who likes quiet cars that go to work and back without much fuss.
If you think I should like the Equus, buy me one and I'll find the place in my heart to love the deal.
What a load of my shoulders. Finally, I've come to clarity on the matter. Maybe I'll quit drinking, and my dog will come back.
OH WAIT.
Let's separate the matters of opinion from the matters of fact.
1. I haven't driven any of the Korean limos but I've ridden in enough Genesis to know that it's not the car for me. How in the world can I say, 'my sincere opinion is that I wouldn't like one enough to own it' and then you can say, 'no your opinion is invalid'. Unless you have some omnipotence, you don't know my opinions and how they're informed.
It'd be as asinine as me telling you that you're a sucker for perceived quality and if you think that any of these full size luxury cars should be purchased as engaging machines, you've never even owned or operated something set the 'thrill'. I buy cars that are quiet, and hassle free - saving my pennies for motorcycles and race cars that rip my face off. Once you rip through the gears of a sequential gear box monster that chirps the tires shifting into 4th, you realize that all the road legal showroom stocks cars are equally vapid and the difference between an M3 and a ES350 is like chocolate chip vs regular pancakes while tuned motorcycles and racing prepped cars are as dangerous and flavorful as pufferfish.
The idea of buying a Korean limo for a hassle free experience is laughable. Show me one credible source that says their quality is on par with the LS (non 2007 to 2011 LS460s) and I'll shut up.
I do know that the Azera is more reliable than any of the RWD Limos which is why I'd check one out. It's as quiet going down the road as any Genesis I've sat in. And it'd be cheaper to keep on the road. Just what I like about my LS.
2. I did drive a 2014 ES350 for a long weekend while my car was getting a timing belt, and I've had a few Azeras as rental cars on business. I absolutely know 100% how I like those cars and the truth is that they have a great value proposition - they're quiet and relatively cheap to own.
The Equus won the comparison because of its price. Everyone loves a good deal, right? New LS to New Korean Limo, and in the first few years of ownership, I'm sure the Equus is fine.
But I'm a bottom feeder - I don't buy new cars. There isn't a single person in the world who says that the Korean limos compete on quality with the Lexus LS which is really in a class all its own. The Korean limos are closer to Infiniti's quality than Lexus' quality. I wouldn't want to touch a 10 year old Equus with someone else's 10 foot pole. Whereas I obviously saw the value in my then-13-year-old LS when I saved it from the Ford dealership.
And about what the haters said about Toyota - Toyota had major rust issues (every did) but they've had the quality lead since 1974. Yeah they were basic, but reliability is a luxury all its own. And top of the line Toyotas had some luxury features as early as the late 70s. Although those cars were really only common on the west coast.
There aren't many analogies between Hyundai circa 2015 and Toyota Circa 1975. Obviously Hyundai is comfortable with their value proposition, they dont want to be best in class as much as they want to be the best value in the class. That's great for new car owners, but I ain't that. I'm a dude who likes quiet cars that go to work and back without much fuss.
If you think I should like the Equus, buy me one and I'll find the place in my heart to love the deal.
12-23-15, 09:29 AM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
I don't care if you like or buy the Equus or not, but if you're posting advice to people and that advice isn't accurate and you don't have any experience from which to form those viewpoints, I'm going to be there to point that out to people. Every time.
If you haven't driven or even ridden in an Equus, don't tell somebody who has that they don't know what they're talking about. I've owned three LS's, and I've driven several Equuses to compare them. If you think that viewpoint isn't of value to this discussion I don't know what to tell you.
The Equus is a very similar car to drive, similar in size, feel to an LS. That was the question, and you don't have any grounds to be able to tell me I'm wrong because you've never driven one.
Riding in a car doesn't give you the full experience of driving it. Like I said, I've had three LSs and when I drove the new Genesis (not the old Genesis) I immediately thought of the LS. I've also had two ES's, so whe unsay the Genesis is a more refined drive and feel than the ES...that also has a lot of weight whether you like it or not.
If you haven't driven or even ridden in an Equus, don't tell somebody who has that they don't know what they're talking about. I've owned three LS's, and I've driven several Equuses to compare them. If you think that viewpoint isn't of value to this discussion I don't know what to tell you.
The Equus is a very similar car to drive, similar in size, feel to an LS. That was the question, and you don't have any grounds to be able to tell me I'm wrong because you've never driven one.
Riding in a car doesn't give you the full experience of driving it. Like I said, I've had three LSs and when I drove the new Genesis (not the old Genesis) I immediately thought of the LS. I've also had two ES's, so whe unsay the Genesis is a more refined drive and feel than the ES...that also has a lot of weight whether you like it or not.
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-23-15 at 09:54 AM.
12-23-15, 10:03 AM
#29
Pole Position
And to the extent that the conversation is about the LS' peers in reliability (especially long term) the Korean Limos don't even belong in the discussion. At the most conservative, we don't know if they'll hold up long term. And with the most amount of inference the initial quality is average at best .
I never once besmirched the Korean Limo's interior quality or value proposition. But I have outlined their differences in quality which is among the most compelling points of the LS430 and have explained why the FWD luxury cars are solid contenders.
What part of my advice is inaccurate?
I never once besmirched the Korean Limo's interior quality or value proposition. But I have outlined their differences in quality which is among the most compelling points of the LS430 and have explained why the FWD luxury cars are solid contenders.
What part of my advice is inaccurate?
12-23-15, 10:06 AM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
LOL, when you drive one come talk to me.