Differential Noise with Video - 2001 LS430 UL
12-04-13, 10:27 AM
#1
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Differential Noise with Video - 2001 LS430 UL
Hey folks -
Recently, I've noticed a roaring noise on my 2001 LS with 126k miles. It has gotten louder than when it first started. At first, I thought it was just a hub assembly bearing, which I was prepared to replace and feel comfortable with doing myself.
After raising the rear of the car up and spinning the wheels, the noise appears to be coming from the differential. I can place my hand on the differential and feel the vibration of the noise. When I found this out, I got a very bad feeling.
One interesting observation: When driving and turning to the left the noise is much louder. When I turn to the right, the noise almost goes away completely. This led me to believe I had a passenger-side hub assembly/bearing problem. But after lifting it up and finding the source to be the differential, I'm curious as to why its louder on one side as opposed to the other.
I'm posting this to see if anyone has experience or feedback with differential problems. The only thing I can surmise is that the bearings inside are shot. I performed a rear differential fluid drain/refill at 85k miles and it has not leaked any fluid.
I've posted a video of the noise here to help tell the story.
To me, this is something that I'd want only a dealer to address. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm afraid I could be facing a large repair bill here
-Brian
Recently, I've noticed a roaring noise on my 2001 LS with 126k miles. It has gotten louder than when it first started. At first, I thought it was just a hub assembly bearing, which I was prepared to replace and feel comfortable with doing myself.
After raising the rear of the car up and spinning the wheels, the noise appears to be coming from the differential. I can place my hand on the differential and feel the vibration of the noise. When I found this out, I got a very bad feeling.
One interesting observation: When driving and turning to the left the noise is much louder. When I turn to the right, the noise almost goes away completely. This led me to believe I had a passenger-side hub assembly/bearing problem. But after lifting it up and finding the source to be the differential, I'm curious as to why its louder on one side as opposed to the other.
I'm posting this to see if anyone has experience or feedback with differential problems. The only thing I can surmise is that the bearings inside are shot. I performed a rear differential fluid drain/refill at 85k miles and it has not leaked any fluid.
I've posted a video of the noise here to help tell the story.
To me, this is something that I'd want only a dealer to address. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm afraid I could be facing a large repair bill here
-Brian
Last edited by pizitz70; 12-04-13 at 01:58 PM.
12-04-13, 11:00 AM
#2
I am not sure why you are hearing less or more noise when turning.
I would not pay for a new differential and dealer crazy markup pricing. I would go online and look at good used differential. The fact that your car is a UL does not change the type of differential. It definitely sounds like metal on metal in there. Maybe lack of fluid or something broke loose. I think you are on the right path with getting a professional mechanic to look at it but don't get suckered into paying for a new one. Pointless. I am sure you could get a good used one for 1/4th the cost over new.
Example:
Lexus of South Atlanta new:
http://www.lexussouthatlantaparts.co...ssembly=764669
Or:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/01-02-03-04-05-LEXUS-GS430-REAR-DIFFERENTIAL-ONLY-3-266-RATIO-30687-/370713203256?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3ALS430&hash=item56503a9238&vxp=mtr
I would not pay for a new differential and dealer crazy markup pricing. I would go online and look at good used differential. The fact that your car is a UL does not change the type of differential. It definitely sounds like metal on metal in there. Maybe lack of fluid or something broke loose. I think you are on the right path with getting a professional mechanic to look at it but don't get suckered into paying for a new one. Pointless. I am sure you could get a good used one for 1/4th the cost over new.
Example:
Lexus of South Atlanta new:
http://www.lexussouthatlantaparts.co...ssembly=764669
Or:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/01-02-03-04-05-LEXUS-GS430-REAR-DIFFERENTIAL-ONLY-3-266-RATIO-30687-/370713203256?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3ALS430&hash=item56503a9238&vxp=mtr
Last edited by Lavrishevo; 12-04-13 at 11:07 AM.
12-04-13, 11:21 AM
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pizitz70,
It might not be related but I had an issue with rear left drive shaft that has been resolved by replacing it with used one. That shaft is comprised of three pieces with two of what seems like CV joints (one towards the wheel and the other to the transmission/differential). It was not making any noise during a drive but it did make 'clicking' noise from the wheel-end whenever the gear is shifted from P to D or R. Now how this issue might have progressed had I not addressed it properly, I am not sure. But since you have mentioned that your noise is only from one side, I am writing this. Just for reference, I was not able to find any -refurbished part on internet for this happens very rarely on already not-so-easy-to-find car as LS430. There are companies that does the rebuilding once the core is shipped to them though. Just in case, I am thinking to get mine re-furbished soon. Mine is 2005 and currently clocked 35k and this sound was present at the time of the purchase from the original owner last Dec. with 25k miles on. Also, I have not had a chance to open the two rubber boots on the shaft but I intend to do that before I send it out to be re-furbished just so to see what sort of damage it has to make that noise.
The exact origin of the noise that I mentioned above was very hard to pin-point (whether it is from the brake assembly, hub or differential since various parts are all tightly connected and the sound seems to come from the entire chain although a little more from the wheel side). Lastly, I obtained the used shaft from Sacramento area Lexus junk shop at $149 while dealer price was more than $800. The shop had 2005 LS sitting in the shop (according to the front desk) for about 4 years so they should have decent parts inventory.
Additionally, it took about 3 hours (experienced and well-built mechanic - a lot of brute force is needed to get the wheel assembly and suspension parts out of the way to gain access) to remove and replace the shaft without any specialised tools from Lexus but impact wrenches and one large diameter socket (can't recall what size - but if you want, I could get that info) is needed to remove the hub nut
cy
It might not be related but I had an issue with rear left drive shaft that has been resolved by replacing it with used one. That shaft is comprised of three pieces with two of what seems like CV joints (one towards the wheel and the other to the transmission/differential). It was not making any noise during a drive but it did make 'clicking' noise from the wheel-end whenever the gear is shifted from P to D or R. Now how this issue might have progressed had I not addressed it properly, I am not sure. But since you have mentioned that your noise is only from one side, I am writing this. Just for reference, I was not able to find any -refurbished part on internet for this happens very rarely on already not-so-easy-to-find car as LS430. There are companies that does the rebuilding once the core is shipped to them though. Just in case, I am thinking to get mine re-furbished soon. Mine is 2005 and currently clocked 35k and this sound was present at the time of the purchase from the original owner last Dec. with 25k miles on. Also, I have not had a chance to open the two rubber boots on the shaft but I intend to do that before I send it out to be re-furbished just so to see what sort of damage it has to make that noise.
The exact origin of the noise that I mentioned above was very hard to pin-point (whether it is from the brake assembly, hub or differential since various parts are all tightly connected and the sound seems to come from the entire chain although a little more from the wheel side). Lastly, I obtained the used shaft from Sacramento area Lexus junk shop at $149 while dealer price was more than $800. The shop had 2005 LS sitting in the shop (according to the front desk) for about 4 years so they should have decent parts inventory.
Additionally, it took about 3 hours (experienced and well-built mechanic - a lot of brute force is needed to get the wheel assembly and suspension parts out of the way to gain access) to remove and replace the shaft without any specialised tools from Lexus but impact wrenches and one large diameter socket (can't recall what size - but if you want, I could get that info) is needed to remove the hub nut
cy
Last edited by gomboy60; 12-04-13 at 12:04 PM.
12-06-13, 06:53 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
Guys,
Thanks for the feedback. I'll take all that into consideration when I talk to my guy while getting it diagnosed.
I lifted the car up again yesterday just to check the differential fluid level. When I cracked the top fill bolt, fluid trickled out - so its got plenty of fluid.
Meanwhile, the grinding/roaring sound continues. Again, I can place my hand on the bottom of the differential and definitely feel the vibration of that noise source. This is the only indicator that is leading me to believe my problem is inside the differential.
I'm still hanging on to the hope that I could have a hub bearing gone bad. Wishful thinking here.
I'm wondering is its normal to have any type of noise at all coming from a differential when lifted and spinning the wheels with the engine off? I'm still curious as to why my driving test (turning left and right) produces a louder noise on one side only and almost goes away when turning the other direction.
My thinking is that perhaps I do have a hub bearing bad and maybe-just maybe the noise I hear from the differential when spinning the rear wheels is 'normal'.
Regardless, I'm going to be taking it to my regular guy first - very soon to get his opinion. This problem is worrying the crap out of me.
-Brian
Thanks for the feedback. I'll take all that into consideration when I talk to my guy while getting it diagnosed.
I lifted the car up again yesterday just to check the differential fluid level. When I cracked the top fill bolt, fluid trickled out - so its got plenty of fluid.
Meanwhile, the grinding/roaring sound continues. Again, I can place my hand on the bottom of the differential and definitely feel the vibration of that noise source. This is the only indicator that is leading me to believe my problem is inside the differential.
I'm still hanging on to the hope that I could have a hub bearing gone bad. Wishful thinking here.
I'm wondering is its normal to have any type of noise at all coming from a differential when lifted and spinning the wheels with the engine off? I'm still curious as to why my driving test (turning left and right) produces a louder noise on one side only and almost goes away when turning the other direction.
My thinking is that perhaps I do have a hub bearing bad and maybe-just maybe the noise I hear from the differential when spinning the rear wheels is 'normal'.
Regardless, I'm going to be taking it to my regular guy first - very soon to get his opinion. This problem is worrying the crap out of me.
-Brian
12-06-13, 07:15 AM
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One way to check the integrity of the hub is to hold the wheel with both hands and shake it left to right, top to bottom with the wheel off the fgound, of course. There should be minimal play or none at all.
cy
cy
12-06-13, 07:16 AM
#6
It is not common for the rear end to go. Have you ever changed the fluid? How many miles? Even if the differential is shot, it can be rebuilt or a used one can be purchased.
www.car-parts.com or check local salvage yards. Really not too bad. It will be more expensive to fix a broken air shock.
www.car-parts.com or check local salvage yards. Really not too bad. It will be more expensive to fix a broken air shock.
Last edited by Lavrishevo; 12-06-13 at 07:22 AM.
12-06-13, 07:50 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
CY, There is minimal to no play at all on either real wheel. But my driving test sure indicates otherwise. Turns to the left produce louder roaring from the right side.
Lavrishevo, That is my thought process too. I've never heard of a differential just go bad. I have changed the differential oil at 85k miles. The oil that came out when I checked it yesterday appears to be good with good color still.
Hate to keep beating this topic to death. Before taking it in, I might try another differential fluid change with some different oil and see if there is any change at all. Right now, it has Vavoline 75W-90 gear oil.
Also, for good measure, I'm going to raise the front of the car and check for bad hub bearings. It thats it, I'll kick myself.
-Brian
Lavrishevo, That is my thought process too. I've never heard of a differential just go bad. I have changed the differential oil at 85k miles. The oil that came out when I checked it yesterday appears to be good with good color still.
Hate to keep beating this topic to death. Before taking it in, I might try another differential fluid change with some different oil and see if there is any change at all. Right now, it has Vavoline 75W-90 gear oil.
Also, for good measure, I'm going to raise the front of the car and check for bad hub bearings. It thats it, I'll kick myself.
-Brian
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12-06-13, 08:15 AM
#9
Did you change the fluid or did a shop do it? Maybe the wrong fluid was put in there? Maybe some sort of friction modifier additive was put in there that shouldn't be?
I'd try a fluid change and make sure it's all factory spec, it's a cheap test.
If you're unsure what's going on with the noise, I would take it to a reputable shop and at least have them diagnose. It's worth $100 or so to have them figure it out. You just don't want to start shotgunning parts chasing a noise.
I definitely would not purchase a new differential if that's their diagnosis, you can buy a used one from a salvage yard and save thousands as they almost never go bad on these cars. I can't even imagine what a Lexus dealer would charge to replace with a brand new differential.
I'd try a fluid change and make sure it's all factory spec, it's a cheap test.
If you're unsure what's going on with the noise, I would take it to a reputable shop and at least have them diagnose. It's worth $100 or so to have them figure it out. You just don't want to start shotgunning parts chasing a noise.
I definitely would not purchase a new differential if that's their diagnosis, you can buy a used one from a salvage yard and save thousands as they almost never go bad on these cars. I can't even imagine what a Lexus dealer would charge to replace with a brand new differential.
12-06-13, 11:06 AM
#10
Pole Position
If you do decide to pursue a fluid change on your diff, you might want to check out this fluid:
Redline Heavy Shockproof Gear oil
This oil has appropriate friction for our LS430 diffs, but it's incredibly thick and good at coating the gears for their entire revolution (as opposed to just pooling up in the bottom of a diff like most diff oils). I think that if there was an oil that would ameliorate your differential's problem, it'd be the Heavy Shockproof gear oil.
Redline Heavy Shockproof Gear oil
This oil has appropriate friction for our LS430 diffs, but it's incredibly thick and good at coating the gears for their entire revolution (as opposed to just pooling up in the bottom of a diff like most diff oils). I think that if there was an oil that would ameliorate your differential's problem, it'd be the Heavy Shockproof gear oil.
02-19-14, 07:10 AM
#12
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Thread Starter
FIXED! - Problem was wheel hub assembly - NOT differential
This problem is now solved. My mechanic checked the car out and the roaring was actually a bad right-rear hub assembly - not the differential.
The assembly was replaced and I'm back on the road, noise-free.
The reason I could not hear the bad bearing with my own test is because I was only hand-spinning the rear wheels. That wasn't fast enough to produce the failed bearing noise. To hear it, the car needed to be running, in gear and accelerated a bit.
To my own credit, I was 'in the ballpark' by determining the noise was more pronounced when turning to the left, suggesting the problem was on the right side.
I was focused (and worried) too much on a false lead with the noise from the differential. Turns out, that noise (as seen in the video link of the first post) is normal and you do not hear anything from it while going down the road. That noise was only detectable while under the car and hand-spinning the wheels. Just gears spinning in oil, inside the housing - completely normal.
Thanks to all who provided their feedback and suggestions. My situation had a good ending with minimal affects on my wallet.
The assembly was replaced and I'm back on the road, noise-free.
The reason I could not hear the bad bearing with my own test is because I was only hand-spinning the rear wheels. That wasn't fast enough to produce the failed bearing noise. To hear it, the car needed to be running, in gear and accelerated a bit.
To my own credit, I was 'in the ballpark' by determining the noise was more pronounced when turning to the left, suggesting the problem was on the right side.
I was focused (and worried) too much on a false lead with the noise from the differential. Turns out, that noise (as seen in the video link of the first post) is normal and you do not hear anything from it while going down the road. That noise was only detectable while under the car and hand-spinning the wheels. Just gears spinning in oil, inside the housing - completely normal.
Thanks to all who provided their feedback and suggestions. My situation had a good ending with minimal affects on my wallet.
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LowkeyLS (08-09-21)
11-03-14, 06:45 AM
#13
I know the previous posts are 8 months old so I'm posting my similar experience to possibly help others.
I also had a noise which I initially that was a wheel bearing starting to go bad. It started as a barely audible "whine or whir" sound. it gradually got louder (over about 5,000 miles) to the point that at slower speeds it sounded like a faint rumble. Over the course of those 5,000 or so miles i had the car up in the air several times trying to determine where the noise was coming from. I feared it was the rear differential bearings where the axles joined the diff. The reason being is because you can actually move grab the axle at that point and move it up and down, back and forth. I would expect a little movement but it probably had a 1/16" of movement if not more which to me didn't seem as all other joints at the axles, drive shafts, etc. had no movement at all.
Saturday on my way home from a visit to a college my daughter plans on attending, my wife was in the back seat. I asked her where the noise seemed to be coming from and she said it seemed louder on the drivers side. The noise never changed it pitch or volume no matter if I was accelerating, letting off the gas, turning left, right, etc. The noise was constant and speed related. It can be heard from about 20 mph and up and the faster you went, the louder it was.
The next day I again had the car up in the air, tried grabbing the wheel, moving it up and down or side to side and nothing! I took the wheel, caliper and disc off. I tried using a pry bar to see if i could get the hub to move. Again, nothing! Spinning the hubs by hand you hear and feel the "groan" or cogs of the gears in the diff which sound just like what I hear in the cabin so then I feared It had to be something in the diff especially with the movement I seen at the axles into the diff. I put it back together and this time I left it up in the air, started the car and put it in drive. The wheels were spinning and I couldn't really hear anything. I lightly pressed the accelerator and the noise appeared as clear as day. I was standing next to the wheel on the drivers side and the "grrr or whurrrr" sound was very clear and audible. Being that everything is all connected it still could have been coming from the diff. I walked around the passenger side and it was silent! I was relieved that it was a wheel hub and not a differential issue of some sort.
Being that the axles going into the differential were the only place of any joint on the whole rear end that had movement I thought for sure that was it and was relieved when it wasn't. Not that it would have been the end of the world because you can pick a used one up for about $300 but its a hell of a lot more work to swap out than a hub assembly. Plus the hub assembly costs under $100 shipped to my door.
I hope this may help someone with a whirring or rumbling noise coming from the rear axle area. Again it had no play whatsoever, none. But it was definitely bad. I cant imaging how loud one that had any type of movement would sound like. BTW the car is a 2002 that just turned 191,000. Next weekend I replace the struts.....
I also had a noise which I initially that was a wheel bearing starting to go bad. It started as a barely audible "whine or whir" sound. it gradually got louder (over about 5,000 miles) to the point that at slower speeds it sounded like a faint rumble. Over the course of those 5,000 or so miles i had the car up in the air several times trying to determine where the noise was coming from. I feared it was the rear differential bearings where the axles joined the diff. The reason being is because you can actually move grab the axle at that point and move it up and down, back and forth. I would expect a little movement but it probably had a 1/16" of movement if not more which to me didn't seem as all other joints at the axles, drive shafts, etc. had no movement at all.
Saturday on my way home from a visit to a college my daughter plans on attending, my wife was in the back seat. I asked her where the noise seemed to be coming from and she said it seemed louder on the drivers side. The noise never changed it pitch or volume no matter if I was accelerating, letting off the gas, turning left, right, etc. The noise was constant and speed related. It can be heard from about 20 mph and up and the faster you went, the louder it was.
The next day I again had the car up in the air, tried grabbing the wheel, moving it up and down or side to side and nothing! I took the wheel, caliper and disc off. I tried using a pry bar to see if i could get the hub to move. Again, nothing! Spinning the hubs by hand you hear and feel the "groan" or cogs of the gears in the diff which sound just like what I hear in the cabin so then I feared It had to be something in the diff especially with the movement I seen at the axles into the diff. I put it back together and this time I left it up in the air, started the car and put it in drive. The wheels were spinning and I couldn't really hear anything. I lightly pressed the accelerator and the noise appeared as clear as day. I was standing next to the wheel on the drivers side and the "grrr or whurrrr" sound was very clear and audible. Being that everything is all connected it still could have been coming from the diff. I walked around the passenger side and it was silent! I was relieved that it was a wheel hub and not a differential issue of some sort.
Being that the axles going into the differential were the only place of any joint on the whole rear end that had movement I thought for sure that was it and was relieved when it wasn't. Not that it would have been the end of the world because you can pick a used one up for about $300 but its a hell of a lot more work to swap out than a hub assembly. Plus the hub assembly costs under $100 shipped to my door.
I hope this may help someone with a whirring or rumbling noise coming from the rear axle area. Again it had no play whatsoever, none. But it was definitely bad. I cant imaging how loud one that had any type of movement would sound like. BTW the car is a 2002 that just turned 191,000. Next weekend I replace the struts.....
02-28-15, 09:39 AM
#14
Lexus Test Driver
I had a bad driver's rear wheel bearing. When my car was on the lift I had it running in neutral and noticed the diff seemed noisy, in addition to the driver's side wheel bearing. I held each of the rear wheels still and allowed the opposite to spin freely, and when the driver's wheel was motionless, there was an awful grinding/whining from the passenger's side of the differential. You can hear it in this video. Sounds like the bearing in the diff is shot, and it's weird that the driver's side of the diff didn't make this noise. Did any of you guys experience the same thing?
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