Bob04

That's insane. Sewell has the front door speakers for $110 each, rear door speakers for $99 each, and the subwoofer for $320.

dapimpee

Sh...my Focal component speakers alone cost over 1k...LOL.

ShelterPet

Hi, all. I'm new to the forum, but have had 14 Lexuses over the years and have enjoyed lurking on the CL site many times. Thanks to all you veterans who post such useful info, especially the DIYs with photos. Much appreciated.

I wanted to weigh in on the Mark Levinson issues and the pitfalls of putting non-OEM loudspeakers in as replacements for blown ML drivers.

I just bought my wife a 2001 LS430 and all its door speakers have disintegrated surrounds. The drivers aren't "blown" per se; their surrounds have simply disintegrated. Also, the subwoofer is not functioning at all, so I assume it's got a blown voicecoil...and likely a disintegrated surround, too.

By way of background, I am experienced in the audio industry AND personal friends with one of the gents who actually designed the Mark Levinson systems for the Lexuses. Coincidentally, I also own a company that's in the foam business, so I know a bit about foam chemistry and the longevity characteristics of different formulations.

The Levinson-branded drivers' (and some other brands') surrounds use a type of foam formulation that is known to oxidize (discolor and disintegrate). There are other types of foam and rubber that can be used that will last a lot longer than the stock surrounds. Why companies choose to use surround material that they have to KNOW will disintegrate is beyond me, but I can only assume it's planned obsolescence.

Here's my plan for the LS430 I bought my wife.

I found a pair of ML rear door speakers online that are mint (no disintegration). I bought them and a brand new pair of ML front door speakers. I bought the Polk sub (dual voicecoil) that has been talked about in this thread and on Amazon. I will pull the existing ML drivers out of all four doors and remove the sub. I will send them away to be refoamed with better parts and to potentially have the sub's voicecoil replaced or repaired. I will then keep these repaired parts well-packed on the shelf. I will install the replacement ML drivers in the four doors and install the Polk sub (wired in series @ 8 ohms). This way, I'll retain most of the OEM ML sound/tuning (more on that in a moment) AND have backups for if/when the replacement ML drivers' surrounds go bad. Total I paid for all 4 ML drivers + the Polk sub = around $300 (I got an incredible deal on the pair of rear door speakers, otherwise the total would be about $425-$450). Total to send away all the existing ones for refoaming = around $190.

I say that the system will retain "most" of the ML sound/tuning because I'll obviously be putting a non-ML Polk sub in. This will not exhibit the same response curve or sensitivity as the OEM ML sub driver, but it should be close enough, given what I've read about others' experiences. The fact that the Polk is 8 ohms vs. the ML sub's 12 ohms is a concern to me, but for $60 with free Prime shipping, I took the plunge. If it's too far off what I know the sound should be, I'll yank it and put the repaired ML sub back in, thus retaining an all-ML system.

With regard to why it's not as simple for us as just putting in non-ML drivers that fit where we want 'em to, there are a few reasons: differences in sensitivity, differences in response curves, differences in impedance, phase differences...and...the biggest one of all: the ML OEM head unit has had its DSP tweaked for the ML loudspeakers, not aftermarkets. As I said earlier, a good friend of mine was one of the tweakers and loudspeaker designers, so I've gotten to hear stories about all the DSP and design work it takes to "voice" the systems correctly. Putting in non-ML drivers is like applying an EQ curve and time-domain correction to one system, then expecting it to be appropriate for a totally different system. I know we all wish it were as simple as putting in aftermarket drivers, but generally this isn't the best solution.

With regard to my not being as concerned about putting in the Polk non-ML sub: most of the time-domain and frequency tailoring happens in the midrange and treble regions, not the low end, so the non-ML sub shouldn't have as big an effect (potentially detrimentally) on the sound as it would if I were putting in non-ML midranges, tweeters or, as is the case with the rear door speakers, full-ranges.

Having said all this, if you put in Eminence, Polk, etc., and it sounds good to you...go for it! I'm not beating anybody up here! I'm just trying to shed light on the topic.

Love the forum! Happy to have finally registered so I could post this. Hope it's helpful.

jamsvet

Next time I decide to "Time domain and Frequency tailoring" my system, I'll give you a call.

Just kidding. Welcome and thanks for the advice.

ShelterPet

Sorry for the TMI. My business is time-domain and frequency tweaking-centric, so it's top of mind for me. I realize others may just want their &^%$# stereos to sound right! :-)

Jabberwock

ML drivers are crap. Take one out and look at it carefully - cheap foam surround, cheap paper cone, laughable sized magnet, lowest cost crappy magnet material - give me a break..ML drivers in LS430w were cheaply made junk.

I understand that the drivers do not need to be super high quality in a car. The acoustic environment in a car is terrible - lots of compromises in driver positioning, spacing, listener distance etc. Car audio environment simply does not warranty the usual high end audio "esoteric snake oil" gibberish that inhabits the home audio discussion forums.

The cult of quality for ML lexus systems in the LS430 besides all physical evidence to the contrary continues to amaze me. They do have great ML marketing brochures...those are certainly high quaility items.

ShelterPet

Generally, I agree that the ML Woofer in the LS430 seems subpar in its build quality, but the stock ML system sounds pretty accurate. Not nearly as accurate as the ML system in my LX470, though, which approximates a good studio monitor setup in an accurate control room and which I have no plans to change. It's an extremely accurate system.

I, too, am adamantly anti-snake oil. Some of the voodoo I read in the hi-fi mags is beyond laughable. Especially to an audio pro like me.

To be clear: I have not drunk the ML (or any other brand) Kool-Aid. And I'm literally aware of how little some brands' drivers --- which are often simply re-branded --- cost to manufacture.

If there was a wide selection of aftermarket, more capable drivers that would fit the car's brackets/spaces AND be appropriate for use with the OEM head unit's DSP & time domain setup, I'd be the first in line. My main point is that non-OEM drivers vary in many ways from the OEM ones that were used for voicing the system. Now, if you're putting a new head unit in, particularly with an EQ, knock yourself out. The OEM head unit's DSP & phase concerns become moot.

StanVanDam

ShelterPet's comments are useful so I'm bumping this up. I just replaced my front right door speaker surround with a new one, and it sounds good as new. Info @ https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...istortion.html

If you have a good ear and are experienced in listening to higher-end audio setups / studio monitors (which generally produce a flatter frequency response curve for the entire range of frequencies within normal human hearing), the LS430's ML system sounds fantastic - you can tell there was a very high emphasis on accurate soundstage and frequency response, especially considering the environment is the inside of a vehicle. At least my 2002's ML system sounds great - can't say I've listened to any 2004-2006 ML systems - perhaps there were less desirable DSP/amp/speaker tweaks in 04-06.

Most people are accustomed to listening to speakers that are highly inaccurate at several (or even most) frequencies, such as over-emphasis on bass, under-emphasis on midranges, and lack of a centred stereo soundstage from the driver's seat, so that may be why some people just don't like the ML system. Many other people (most of my friends) simply lack the hearing ability to tell if someone inadvertently set their home theatre's amp to a DSP filtering mode resulting in their music sounding terrible and like it was underwater or inside a garbage can. Yet other people can't even tell when a speaker surround is lightly torn (exhibited by minor buzzing, only at certain parts of certain songs). I guess if you can't tell the difference, don't bother getting an ML system, don't bother getting a good home theatre system, and you may as well replace your ML speakers with aftermarkets.

jayclapp

Agree wholeheartedly. I suspect that the younger generation have totally destroyed their sense of hearing from excessive volume while wearing earphones and loud volume. Their complaints are valid to them, but sad to reality. I, sadly, am subjected to the natural loss of hearing due to old age ( and being subjected to excessive noise with no knowledge that it was damaging to our hearing - the gas turbine engine that powered the SR-71 BlackHawlk aircraft for instance while close up at the turbine exit at full power during development!).

Bonsai

Everyone has their own preferences. No offense taken at your preference for the ML balance, although a little offense taken at the headphone trash talk lol.

For the record, I've enjoyed my Eminence aftermarkets for 6 years now without issues in my 2001 LS430. It's not an UL edition, but it did (and still does) have the ML head unit.

Are the aftermarkets better than the original ML speakers at certain volumes, frequencies, etc? I would never promise that. Are they more durable? I suspect so based on how many people have had problems with the ML stuff over the years, myself included.

For me, the aftermarket option with professional installation was the best deal. I was putting $300 into my car, which was 11 years old at the time and is now 17 years old. I would have happily replaced it with OEM ML parts if they were more affordable, but Lexus quoted me an astronomical price. Even the OEM direct prices quoted above by Bob04 would be $540 for parts (both fronts and a sub). Assuming it was identical installation costs, you're still looking at $740, which was more than twice what I paid.

There is a startling lack of aftermarket parts avaialble that are compatible with the ML head unit. My goal was not to slam ML OEM replacements, but to offer a known working alternative to them. There was no documentation that I could find at the time on which brands/models were compatible as front door 8 OHM speakers with the door depths, etc. The sub was better documented at the time, but I figured I would include the whole write up. If OEM ML is for you, that's great. I'm still happy with my decision 6 years later. Hopefully the info is helpful to someone.

StanVanDam

Did not mean to offend OP, just wanted owners of the ML system to be aware that it is dirt cheap to repair the ML speakers yourself ($13-23 of new edging per speaker). I figure these new surrounds will last another 10-16 years if they are equivalent to OEM, and will last longer than 16 years if better quality than OEM. Maintains original audio quality (less important if you don't have ML speakers), and no risk of over-stressing the amp due to the slightly to greatly incorrect impedance of aftermarket speakers.

The correct door speaker edge kit is the SimplySpeakers TL-FSK-6bt 6" Foam Speaker Repair Kit (PAIR) $26.95+shipping for 2 edges. Fits absolutely perfectly without any modification, bending, or cutting. My front right door speaker is the only door speaker where the foam surround has failed, and this is after 16 years in-service. My subwoofer surround failed 5 years ago (11 years in-service), and I repaired it using the SimplySpeakers TL-FSK-8M-Toyota 8" Foam Speaker Repair Kit, $23.00+shipping. My repair on the subwoofer has lasted over 5 years now and I often play bass-heavy EDM and rap music.

You don't need to be a professional speaker technician to replace the edge of a speaker. It just requires several hours of free time, mostly to scrape tiny bits of glue and old foam off the old speaker frame and cone, using whatever sharp blades and small flathead screwdrivers that you may have lying around, in order to thoroughly clean the mating surfaces for the new edge.

Scootymad

I just used some speakers from an IS250 and while the sound quality isn't bad, the Sony head unit and integrated amp in my old Ford Mondeo was better, and once I fitted the aftermarket sub and amp it was perfect for what I wanted.

derreckla

What focals did you put in your car? What car did you put them in?

Thanks