I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

I had a GS350 loaner for a few hours yesterday, and also test drove a perfect condition '07 LS460. Prior to this, I had test-driven an '06 GS430 and '05 LS430 Sport back to back in '06 and thought the LS was superior in every aspect -- I didn't even feel that the GS was more sporting feeling, frankly (it had a more "sporting" seating position and cabin atmosphere, but the vehicle dynamics didn't feel more sporting than the LS430 with Sport Suspension). Despite that experience, I was completely shocked yesterday at how the GS350 felt more like a Honda Accord competitor instead of a minor step down from the LS430 (comparing to my '05). My wife and I couldn't get over how huge a difference there was in the quality look/feel and the trim level inside the car. And on the road, the GS isn't in the league with the LS either in terms of quiet, comfort, or pretty much anything I could gauge. As I've posted here before, I've had a couple of ES350 loaners in the past 3-4 months, and I would say that the ES and GS are very similar in finish and general feel unless you push them hard enough to make the front drive v. rear drive start showing through. Otherwise, there's not really much difference in the driving experience of the ES and GS just cruising.

The LS460 -- Despite not really caring too much for the generic sedan looks of the 460, my wife and I were/are willing to trade the 430 for a 460 (or anything else) if the 460 proved to be a superior car on the road and we aren't too worried about reliability (not an issue with the Lexus cars, but a concern with MB's and some others). I had driven a 460 back when they came out, compared it to my '03 LS430 (I had an '03 at that time but have an '05 now) with the Teins and 19" wheels/tires, and decided that I actually liked the '03 the way I had it set up about as well as the 460, though they were fairly different-feeling cars.

Yesterday's impression of the LS460 was pretty similar to my original. The 460 feels substantially heavier than the 430. As one might expect, this is a slight positive in cases where you are simply cruising, a slight negative when you are turning or driving in a manner where weight works against vehicle performance. All things considered, I prefer the more nimble feel of the 430, and overall on-the-road feel (this comparison was with the factory wheels/tires on the 430 -- with the aftermarket wheels/tires, the 430 has a slightly bigger advantage still). Also, the 460, despite significantly higher HP rating, does not feel any quicker than the '04+ 430, and in fact, I'm not sure it feels quite as quick and responsive in circumstances where you are maneuvering in traffic but not going wide open throttle (it does feel quicker than the '01-'03 with it's more "sluggish" transmission that is programmed for even more luxury-oriented shift patterns). Either way, the difference is minor.

The 460 seems to have more wind noise than the 430. Tire noise seemed about the same (again, I had my factory wheels/tires on the 430 for this comparison, but my aftermarket wheels and tires are essentially as quiet as the factory ones). I was surprised to find that I (and my wife, especially) slightly prefer the softer, wider seats of the 430. I've never thought the seats (comfort) were a strong point of the 430, and on my original test drive I came away thinking the 460 seats were an advancement, but this time I didn't feel that way -- they seem a little firm, but not really like a super comfortable seat. I didn't test the sound system, but I've done that before and the 460 has no factory equal, IME.

All things considered, I think I would take the 430 for my use even if they were the same price.
Edit: ^ After re-reading this, the above is a strong statement and I suppose I'd have to give further careful consideration, look at aftermarket wheel/tire options, and maybe spend a few more miles behind the wheel of the 460 to say for certain. But bottom line is, it'd be a tough choice at the same $. For $20K difference, though.... No.

The only other luxury vehicle that keeps calling my name is the S550....

daryll40

Frankly it sounds like you are rationalizing not buying the 460. The 430 is a good car...I had two...but the 460 is the next level. Just do it.

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

LOL What part of "I prefer the 430" did you have trouble understanding? I as much as said that I'm thinking seriously about getting an S550, so that should be an indication that I'm not trying to rationalize NOT buying anything...

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

I6turbo, I agreed with you 100%, I prefer the 430 over the 460 in lots of ways, the biggest advantage of the 430 is the much taller windows, the view from the inside is much more open. The 460 feels like sitting in a cave, I hate how tall the dash is in the 460, again, it takes away that open feeling. That is the biggest thing I hate about the 460. Power wise, like you mention, the 460 does have 100 more hp, but it is also 400~600 lbs heavier (depends on if it is a L or option level), so effectively the 460 only got 50 more peak hp compare to the 430, that is why you don't feel much of a differences. And yes, due to the higher weight, in slow speed at partial throttle, the 460 feels more sluggish. There are only 2 features from the 460 that I wish I have it on my 430, the power side shades and the power trunk lid. Exterior wise, like you mention, I hate how much the LS460 looks like the ES350, I am extremely good at telling cars apart, but it always takes me a moment to tell if it is a ES or LS, especially from the front. Compare to the LS430, the 460 looks narrower, taller, it makes it looks less substantial.

If I get to pick from 2 comparably equipped LS430 vs. LS460, same condition, same price, same mileage. I would take the LS430, no question about it.

A lot of people suffer the "newer is better syndrome" and don't look at things objectively

I also feels the LS460 is not as well build, everything feels less solid then the LS430. Akio Toyoda openly admitted Toyota's quality have gone down in recent years.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

As far as LS430 vs. GS430 goes, when I was buying my 05' LS430 UL, the only other car I was seriously considering was a 06' GS430, like you said, the GS is not even in the same league as the LS in terms of just about everything. The only thing different on the GS, which is the only thing I don't agreed with you is, the GS feels MUCH more sporty then the LS, especially with the suspension in sport mode, it feels much more nimble. But what I am looking for in my Lexus is total comfort for my daily commute, I don't want a sporty car, I save the sporty for my weekend drive in my Nissan GTR

And yes forget the GS350, like I always say, no V6 can "feels" as good as a V8, you can make a V6 to be REALLY powerful, but you can never make it feels as good. So that is why the 350 feels like an Accord to you, it is because of the V6.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

Something to add:

When I am cruising in my LS430, speed is the last thing I am looking for, I just want peace and quiet, I rarely ever even floor my LS430, the only thing I care is it got sufficient low end torque to get the car up to 70 mph effortlessly, which the LS430 have more then enough torque, it definitely doesn't need any more peak power.

Before you think I am a sissy that never drive fast, for my weekend car, I plan to mod my Nissan GTR to 1000 hp, I want a 9 seconds car for my weekend drive

See daily commute and weekend car serve 2 competely opposite purposes. I want total comfort in my daily commute, don't want any speed. On the weekend, I want ultimate rush, don't care about comfort, it is only a 20 minutes drive to the restaurant anyway Seeing you got a 900 hp MKIV, you feel the same way

AlexusAnja

Agree with much of your review, but the LS460 is quieter. Maybe I tested a quiet one and my LS430 has the windshield issue or something, but the LS460 is very quiet around the windows, while the 430 has hints of sound on front side and windshield. Not really enough to bother me, but enough where I DO NOT notice it in the 460. From my own test, the 460's engine bay isolation is even better than the 430. The 430 idles smooth, but I can sense the engine is on. When I got into the 460 I rode for the first time, I though the engine was off and accidentally attempted to crank it again.

Does the 460 have anything that I "must have" over my 430? No, not even the auto trunk. I can live with opening with my smartaccess and pulling the trunk down.

Biggest negative for me, like you, is the generic sedan look of the 460. Now with the mid-cycle "refresh" it looks even more GIANT CAMRY-ish. sad look...

As for GS350, that would have been our vehicle had we not found the LS we did. We were thinking of the GS350AWD, but after seeing how affordable and luxurous the 430 was, it was no decision at all. 430 all the way.

For me, at this point in time with the minor touch-up of the ES350 (which I like overall), I would get an ES350 over a GS350/460. The interior of the ES seems actually more luxurious to me than the GS. Also, the panoramic roof is a nice thing as well...

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

I'm not talking about the "feel" during acceleration, but rather the overall impression the vehicle makes while cruising down the road, casual maneuvering in traffic, and just general driving and use of the controls including switchgear -- things that don't involve power or the call into play the differences between engines. Not the least of these is the general level of finish of the interior and the "atmosphere" it creates, and the GS just looks very downmarket compared to the LS430.

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

Both of us may have too little of a sampling to be valid, but I'm comparing the two 460's I've test driven to the two 430's I've owned, but in both cases I did not find the 460 to be any quieter from a wind or road noise standpoint (which I believe has been the comments from some of the reviewers in the aftermarket press as well). I did notice that the 460 makes noticeably more exhaust noise upon moderate acceleration.

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I agree that these aren't performance cars and even if they had 600 HP they wouldn't be the kind of car that I'd choose to go blasting around in like I do in the Supra. However, there is a threshold -- and it goes without saying that this is an individual thing, that it varies widely from person to person -- below which the car feels a bit sluggish and lacking satisfactory response to throttle inputs, and above which it feels "suited for the task" power wise. And keep in mind that transmission performance can play a HUGE role in the overall impression. I'm looking for that "suited for the task" performance, and for me both the 430 and 460 are just above this threshold so long as the transmission selector is in the PWR setting. In the normal setting both are a little sluggish to kick down a gear an go with moderate throttle inputs. This was the BIGGEST shortcoming that the '01-'03 car had IMO -- it took too much throttle input to make the car move out, and consequently if you wanted to keep up with traffic from a red light or squirt ahead in traffic, you had to spur it a lot harder with the accelerator in order to keep it from shifting out too early, or to make it downshift for a little more torque multiplication. Of course the power-to-weight ratio was the same in both cars ('01-'03 and '04+), but the shift programming (as well as the revised transmission ratios to an extent) makes a big difference in how responsive the car feels.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

I agreed the GS is at a level or 2 down from the LS430, but I won't say it is at the Accord level though, Accord is another few level down. GS is not as nice as a LS, but I still feel it is pretty nice, nice enough for me to consider it

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

I was just saying that it felt "more like a Honda Accord competitor" than a minor step down from an LS.
Another thing I'd say -- I'd take a loaded Hyundai Genesis 4.6 ANY DAY over a GS350. Any day. I drove one of those a few weeks ago and it was very impressive, but I thought the GS (based upon my recollection from '06, the last time I'd driven a GS) was that the GS was still slighly ahead if you didn't factor in the price. However, after this refresher course on the GS, the Genesis 4.6 is hands down more desirable a drive than a GS350, regardless of price. And with the Genesis I'd retain several G's in the pocket to boot. Lexus better get on the stick, IMO.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I have said the exact same thing about the GS and ES being nearly identical in terms of personality, and people on this board chewed me out like I was high on acid.

Regardless of FWD vs. RWD, the GS is not set up to be significantly sportier than the ES on the road- in normal driving they feel almost identical. I think this has really been a large factor in the poor sales of the 3GS.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

You took the words out of my mouth

To me, the 04+ LS430 in power mode is just above that threshold, all the V6s car....IS350, GS350 are below the threshold, their low end torque is too low to feel satisfactory in a luxury sedan.

Of course gearing is everything, the 6-speeds in the 04'+ car feels a lot better then the 5-speeds, and the 8-speeds in the 460 is even better, it is always in the right gear! The reason I didn't say I wish my 430 have the 8-speeds was, I feel the 6-speeds is already good enough.

I am planning to skip this entire generation of LS460/600, I am sure my LS430 will last long enough for me to do that. Hopefully the next generation LS will be dramatically better. Like how the S550 compare to the S500.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

I see, it is definitely a pretty big step down from the LS, not a minor one.

I have only driven a V6 Genesis sedan, I am afraid to drive the 4.6 fearing that it is better then a Lexus I would imagine a V8 Genesis is more desirable then a V6 GS, I wonder how it compare to the GS460. I haven't driven a GS460 either, as I am in heaven in my LS430, I have no desire to drive a lesser GS anymore

Yeah Lexus better improve fast, as the Genesis sedan is almost on par now, and the up and coming Equus looks extremely nice, I am very looking forward to drive the Equus.

According to Akio Toyoda though, his #1 priority is to improve quality.