kc92hatch

Hello board,

My father in law has a '97 LS400 with about 110,000 miles. I gave the car to him with about 70,000 miles in 2009 and she was running perfect. He knew that he had a timing belt replacement in his future.

So in 2013 with about 97,000 miles, he took it to his local non-dealer garage/mechanic. A timing belt replacement was performed with a Continental timing belt kit. All parts supplied by the garage. My father in law isn't car savy and can't recall that the car was running much different after the replacement.

About a year later, poor driveability problems started cropping up. Poor acceleration and occasional stalling were symptoms. I never got the chance to see or drive the car during this period. Original garage tried to diagnose which included replacement of the MAF sensor. Problem was not resolved. Garage said they did not know the cause.

So he set up an appointment at the local Lexus dealer for a diagnosis. Unfortunately, there is a Toyota dealer right next to the Lexus dealer and he accidentially drove in there and they convinced him that they could fix the car just as good as Lexus since they are part of the same corporate family.

So after multiple thousands of dollars and having the car about four weeks, they came back with:

1. Timing belt was installed incorrectly. Timing was off about two gear teeth when they compared timing marks where they should have been. There was also a nick in the back of the belt (the smooth side) about 3/4" x 1/2" ... pretty good gouge, you could see some of the underlying fibers.
2. Both catalytic converters were replaced (I can't remember if there are two for each cylinder bank or just one.) One per bank was replaced.
3. Cam position sensor was replaced.

They suggested that the local garage did not install the timing belt correctly and over the couple of years, the cats got clogged up due to the poor combustion.

Is it reasonable that he might not have noticed the problem originally, and that over time, the cats were progressively plugged where it was a year to a year & a half before the problem became so severe as to be noticable?

I'm trying to figure out best path forward, but I don't trust either the garage or the toyota dealer.

Thanks for any input - much appreciated!!!

sha4000

iTrader: (1)

He would have had multiple trouble codes for the MAf and cats before they went bad. Most likely O2 sensor codes too. Was the check engine light ever on? If the belt had a gouge in it something was def wrong.

dicer

The belt - unknown what or who did the gouge, you just never know, how fresh does the gouge look?

kc92hatch

Thanks for the replies. I'll have to check on check engine lights. I had the same thought on the gouge.....if I had to make a call, I'd say it was not just done by the recent toyota work.

Is there a part during the timing belt installation when you either have to push the belt past a sharp edge on the engine, or when you are putting the front of the engine back together you could push a part onto the belt? It looks like what might happen if a sharp edge from an engine casting part was forced into the belt.......but that's pure speculation.

Open to other thoughts!

Oh, another thing that upset me from the Toyota dealer is that after they had the car all that time, they return it to him and there is a slight miss all through the RPM range. He drove away and then took it back the next day. They gave a quick drive and then quoted him another $775 for plug/wire replacement. However, one of the things they also did while they had the car was valve cover gasket replacement. My guess is that they have a loose connection on either a plug or at the distributor caps.........groan...........

Thanks all!

dicer

There is 2 things not to like about any car fix it place. Number one is FLAT RATE, rush rush rush is what that means, corners are cut big time. Number two is UPSELLING, lots of dirty deeds can be done for and during this. Wow 775 that sounds like an 8 hour job, I guess they are planning on all the plug holes to be stripped out.

cobalt91

Have them recheck the install on plugs and wires. They had to remove them to change valve cover gaskets. They are responsible for any damage to the wires.

sha4000

iTrader: (1)

There is one CAT for each bank. Like dicer said there is a lot of upselling when you just drop the car off without even knowing what's wrong with the car. Especially if you don't ask questions. The dealer will almost always come back with a list of needed repairs. $775 for plug/wire replacement is just ridiculous even though they were probably due for replacement. Also like cobalt91 said, they had to remove them when replacing the valve cover gaskets which would have saved you some money on labor.

kc92hatch

Yep, I hear you all. I wish he would have gotten me involved when it started acting up. But alas.

Is it a reasonable series of events that the timing being off a few degrees would not have had an immediate significant impact on drivability, but over time, could slowly cause the cats to get plugged, in turn causing drivability issues?

I'm trying to determine if I'm going back to the original timing belt installer for an attempt at compensation. But I only have the Toyota dealer's word that the timing belt was installed incorrectly and it was about a year and 10K miles after that install before my father in law thinks the car started to run poorly.

Thanks again!!!

oldskewel

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to hear about this nightmare. Nice of you to help out your father in law here.

I have not done the TB on this car, but have done a few on other cars.

There is _always_ an opportunity to try to force a belt and gouge out part of it.

Once on my 3.5 V6 Honda I was confused by the timing marks and initially installed it ONE tooth off on one of the cam pulleys. It ran terribly. Would barely idle. Immediate deluge of misfire codes. So if it really was installed 2 teeth off, that alone would make it run terribly and it would be immediately apparent to anyone that pops the hood. In you FIL's defense, it is easier than you might think to not notice things on these cars when the hood stays down.

nthach

It's totally possible because the timing was off a ton of raw fuel was pouring into the cats - and possibly the original shop didn't time the engine and made sure it was in time. My engine was off time but I only noticed the poor gas mileage and sluggish acceleration. The timing marks on the engine are easy to see and the OEM belt has installation marks.

In the defense of Continental(who bought out Goodyear's non-tire rubber products division), the belt was probably a good product - my parents had a Goodyear timing belt installed and it worked like the OEM Gates/Unitta that was the stock belt for that car. A lot of aftermarket timing belt/water pump kits do come with bearings/water pump/tensioners of varying quality - I'm sure the Continental kit used OEM supplier bearings and tensioner if it wasn't the "value" series - I know Gates actually uses OEM supplier bearings and tensioners, only things that weren't OEM was the belt and water pump.

jaaa

It's entirely possible that the incorrect timing caused the cats to go bad over time. I know on the v6 Hyundai's I have, you don't even get a code. They just block up and start to lose power. BTW, I just did my spark plugs(that I paid $28 total for) the other day and it took me 1 hour from start to finish(and I'm just a duffer). To charge $800 would be outrageous in my mind.

billydpowe

iTrader: (1)

what I see here is the results of lack of knowledge and poor judgement but it is done now, just fix it right or have it done by a qualified Lexus mechanic.... (not the dealer) and both of you try to learn more about the LS, even if it is just reading the blogs.. lot of knowledge here..

kc92hatch

Thanks everyone. I'll post back if anything interesting happens.

kc92hatch

Well I was able to get the car into my garage. There is a slight miss all through the RPM range, if you were not familar with the car, you might not notice it. Less pronounced while driving, more pronounced while sitting revving in park or neutral. I pulled all the plugs and they all looked OK, pulled each plug wire while running and they all made run poorer. Did same with coils, same result. So on the surface, seems like plugs/wires/coils are OK. No CEL and no codes.

However, previous work was done by local private garage who in general hasn't done a good job on repairs on this car. About 10K miles ago, they did plugs, wires, caps, rotors. Plugs in there now are Autolite APP3923 (I wouldn't have used Autolite if it was me) and the plug wires are 5mm by "Import Direct". Not sure about caps & rotors.

I've unplugged the MAF meter and car dies right away, so I think that's OK. It feels like ignition to me. No other weird things going on (which might not be true if it was ECU?). Fuel filter replaced about 2K miles ago.

I'm considering that the last general tune up by the crappy local mechanic might have used somewhat generic parts that is giving a general ignition system problem that's not easy to diagnose to any one thing. Even though there are less than 10K on them, I'm considering replacing caps, rotors, wires and plugs again.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

oldskewel

iTrader: (1)

At the very least, I'd replace the spark plugs with whatever spec is (Denso or NGK, probably).

You should be able to remove the AFM sensor completely (in addition to unplugging it) and the car will idle well.

If fact, as I did while troubleshooting a problem a while back on my '91, it will idle just fine with these components removed: air intake up to the throttle body, A-belt, fan, T-belt / distributor / spark plug covers. In that mode, it idles just fine, with no air going in through the throttle body, all of it goes through the IACV. With the belt removed, many systems (alternator, PS, AC, fan) are shut off, which may help in isolating the real problem.

So with your car dying when removing the AFM plug, I think that indicates a problem, and I'd track it down, since it may either be the problem or lead you to it.

Good luck.