Service? or is it?
05-18-02, 10:47 AM
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Service? or is it?
Help, please! I bought a '91 LS400 with 100k miles about 4 weeks ago from a guy who gave every indication of being totally **** about his car and gave me all service records which indicated all service had been done with the exception of no transmission fluid change in about 55k miles. Took car in to dealer (Pohanka Lexus, Chantilly, Virginia) immediately for 90k service. Invoice indicates as follows (in part):
inspect steering linkage
inspect ball joints and dust
road test
As to road test, car went in at 100207 mi. and came out at 107208 mi.
Took road trip to PA (300 mi.) and put about 200 miles local driving on it. On Thursday, noticed oil leak. Dropped by dealer on Friday, service advisor checked and said looked like oil leak but OK to drive 150 round trip that day, then bring in. Drop car Friday morning. This morning (Sunday), another service advisor calls with bad news, to wit:
Rear main seal leaking (that's what I thought) $945
Power steering rack leaking $1118
Oil pan leaking $236
Ball joint has too much play $554 plus $169 for alignment
CV boot slinging grease $653
Rt. rear tail light out (just passed inspection 3 wk ago) $48
Now, three things come to mind:
1) Should any of this have been noticed at 90k service?
2) Would there be symptoms of any of these "problems" other that oil leak?
3) Is Pohanka working hard to pay for brand new service facility that opened the day I went in for 90k service?
Talked with service manager and he said could not check today but will pull record on Monday to see if mechanic made any recommendations on his work order. Seems to me this gives 2 days worth of CYA time but manager says they will do right by me.
Needless to say am VERY unhappy about this development. Will take to 2 other places for check out and estimates, but what are feelings out there about this? Would I be wrong to insist on refund for 90k service if it was never completed as specified? Could all these issues have arisen in 3 weeks/500 mi. on a car that has been garaged, pampered and highway driven all it's life?
Opinions and comments welcome!
inspect steering linkage
inspect ball joints and dust
road test
As to road test, car went in at 100207 mi. and came out at 107208 mi.
Took road trip to PA (300 mi.) and put about 200 miles local driving on it. On Thursday, noticed oil leak. Dropped by dealer on Friday, service advisor checked and said looked like oil leak but OK to drive 150 round trip that day, then bring in. Drop car Friday morning. This morning (Sunday), another service advisor calls with bad news, to wit:
Rear main seal leaking (that's what I thought) $945
Power steering rack leaking $1118
Oil pan leaking $236
Ball joint has too much play $554 plus $169 for alignment
CV boot slinging grease $653
Rt. rear tail light out (just passed inspection 3 wk ago) $48
Now, three things come to mind:
1) Should any of this have been noticed at 90k service?
2) Would there be symptoms of any of these "problems" other that oil leak?
3) Is Pohanka working hard to pay for brand new service facility that opened the day I went in for 90k service?
Talked with service manager and he said could not check today but will pull record on Monday to see if mechanic made any recommendations on his work order. Seems to me this gives 2 days worth of CYA time but manager says they will do right by me.
Needless to say am VERY unhappy about this development. Will take to 2 other places for check out and estimates, but what are feelings out there about this? Would I be wrong to insist on refund for 90k service if it was never completed as specified? Could all these issues have arisen in 3 weeks/500 mi. on a car that has been garaged, pampered and highway driven all it's life?
Opinions and comments welcome!
05-19-02, 04:03 PM
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your'e really scarin' me bro. i just picked up a '92. this guy really seemed **** about his car too, also provided a stack of service records. i just had the dealer inspect and he said the car is in fine shape condisering the age and mileage. best of luck....aloha
05-23-02, 02:21 AM
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MidLifer,
not all of these sound good to me. I can accept that may be several things wrong at this mileage and age, but they are asking for too much "dough" and many parts. At first, I don't understand why the rear seal would cost nearly $1K. The steering rack may be leaking from the hose side, and not from the body. Keep in mind that steering racks mostly when go bad, their components get loose, and such problems, rather replace them for leaks. Changing the rack is very big and expensive job, so you need to be absolutely sure that you really have to change it. If the oil pan is leaking, you replace the gasket and not the entire pan! It is much cheaper and easier to fix. I don't think you have a bad pan on this car! When you replace the ball joints, you don't have to make an alignment, especially for $169 bucks!! Check out also, how many ball joints they are talking about, cause if is only for a couple the money is too much. When the CV boot is leaking and the joint has no problem, you only replace the boot and add new grease. You don't want to spend this amount only for boots. Here is my succestion. Ask your buddies about a decent mechanic, and take it for inspection. I really don't think you have to pay twice the price of what you paid to buy the car.
not all of these sound good to me. I can accept that may be several things wrong at this mileage and age, but they are asking for too much "dough" and many parts. At first, I don't understand why the rear seal would cost nearly $1K. The steering rack may be leaking from the hose side, and not from the body. Keep in mind that steering racks mostly when go bad, their components get loose, and such problems, rather replace them for leaks. Changing the rack is very big and expensive job, so you need to be absolutely sure that you really have to change it. If the oil pan is leaking, you replace the gasket and not the entire pan! It is much cheaper and easier to fix. I don't think you have a bad pan on this car! When you replace the ball joints, you don't have to make an alignment, especially for $169 bucks!! Check out also, how many ball joints they are talking about, cause if is only for a couple the money is too much. When the CV boot is leaking and the joint has no problem, you only replace the boot and add new grease. You don't want to spend this amount only for boots. Here is my succestion. Ask your buddies about a decent mechanic, and take it for inspection. I really don't think you have to pay twice the price of what you paid to buy the car.
05-23-02, 03:10 AM
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Thanks Bobby K. Here's an update.
Service manger puts me in free loaner, has another mechanic look at car with instructions to give him an "unbiased opinion" (does this mean opinions are usually biased?). Anyhow, I talked with him yesterday, and though he is still evaluating car, here is what he tells me so far:
1) Rear main seal leaking and should be done because leak can gradually get significantly worse.
2) Oil pan gasket is done as part of rear main seal job.
3) Ball joint play is within "normal" parameters
4) Steering rack does show signs of "residue", but is considered OK on car of this age and mileage.
Hmmm. Well, while this certainly improves my state of mind considering the car, which to all appearances has always been treated with kid gloves.....
Did I just get unlucky with incompetent/dishonest first mechanic at same dealer?
Am I the only Lexus owner who can't afford to throw away money and therefore the first one who challenged a diagnosis?
Should I just be thankful the service manager is trying to help me out and understand that he can't know everything that goes on during his watch?
Right now I have to be thankful. I'll post updates.
Oh, one other thing. I have dealt with 2 service advisors at this dealership and understand that there are some "personal" issues between them. Could there be a connection?
Service manger puts me in free loaner, has another mechanic look at car with instructions to give him an "unbiased opinion" (does this mean opinions are usually biased?). Anyhow, I talked with him yesterday, and though he is still evaluating car, here is what he tells me so far:
1) Rear main seal leaking and should be done because leak can gradually get significantly worse.
2) Oil pan gasket is done as part of rear main seal job.
3) Ball joint play is within "normal" parameters
4) Steering rack does show signs of "residue", but is considered OK on car of this age and mileage.
Hmmm. Well, while this certainly improves my state of mind considering the car, which to all appearances has always been treated with kid gloves.....
Did I just get unlucky with incompetent/dishonest first mechanic at same dealer?
Am I the only Lexus owner who can't afford to throw away money and therefore the first one who challenged a diagnosis?
Should I just be thankful the service manager is trying to help me out and understand that he can't know everything that goes on during his watch?
Right now I have to be thankful. I'll post updates.
Oh, one other thing. I have dealt with 2 service advisors at this dealership and understand that there are some "personal" issues between them. Could there be a connection?
05-23-02, 03:24 AM
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A couple more things, Bobby.
I'm just outside Washgton DC. Could this account for higher repair costs? I know that labor is $75-100 per hour.
Actually even those expensive repairs don't amount to twice what I paid for car. I paid close to, but less than $10,000. Car appears showroom new and runs great, which may be part of reason for my initial gag reaction to suggested repairs.
While I'm here again, ideas on effect of oxygen sensors, caps, rotors on mileage? My mileage has been a little less that ideal, though not entirely crappy, around town anyhow, and these items have never been replaced to my knowledge.
Also, have a small (sub 10 mm) crack at top corner of coolant bottle that is leaking. Any way to repair? I was thinking of melting the spot with a soldering iron and letting it reharden, or is there any type of epoxy compound that might work?
Thanks.
I'm just outside Washgton DC. Could this account for higher repair costs? I know that labor is $75-100 per hour.
Actually even those expensive repairs don't amount to twice what I paid for car. I paid close to, but less than $10,000. Car appears showroom new and runs great, which may be part of reason for my initial gag reaction to suggested repairs.
While I'm here again, ideas on effect of oxygen sensors, caps, rotors on mileage? My mileage has been a little less that ideal, though not entirely crappy, around town anyhow, and these items have never been replaced to my knowledge.
Also, have a small (sub 10 mm) crack at top corner of coolant bottle that is leaking. Any way to repair? I was thinking of melting the spot with a soldering iron and letting it reharden, or is there any type of epoxy compound that might work?
Thanks.
05-23-02, 04:10 PM
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rear engine seal
Several years ago a friend took his 91 LS400 into Lexus of Bellevue for the 90k maintainance. The very next day after he got it back he noticed a pool of oil on his otherwise spotless garage floor. At the time it seemed impossible that there wasn't some connection between the 90K service and the rear main seal suddenly springing a leak. Lexus insisted that nothing they could have done would have caused the leak so my friend laid out another $1000 to have the seal replaced (at Lexus of Seattle).
About a year later I learned that apparently the LS400 rear main seal will blow if the engine is over-filled with oil and then driven that way for some short duration.
My 92 LS400 has never been back to Bellevue for any type of service since an early oil change in which they put new oil in before draining the old, luckily I discovered the over-fill the very next morning.
Lexus is a single mark shop, they are undoubtedly hurting for service revenue with their product set being as relaible as it is.
And it truly is.
It's beginning to look to me as if the product set will be even more relaible the longer it is kept out of the dealer's service manager's "hands".
About a year later I learned that apparently the LS400 rear main seal will blow if the engine is over-filled with oil and then driven that way for some short duration.
My 92 LS400 has never been back to Bellevue for any type of service since an early oil change in which they put new oil in before draining the old, luckily I discovered the over-fill the very next morning.
Lexus is a single mark shop, they are undoubtedly hurting for service revenue with their product set being as relaible as it is.
And it truly is.
It's beginning to look to me as if the product set will be even more relaible the longer it is kept out of the dealer's service manager's "hands".
05-24-02, 04:58 AM
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I picked up the car last evening because I decided to check out A/C operation before I spring for the $1300 that the dealer now wants for rear main seal, oil pan leak and C/V boot clamps.
Interestingly, when I popped the hood this morning to check the fluids, I find that the dipstick is registering a level past the measuring marks of the stick, on the wire itself. I have not added any oil to this car period and the dealer did the change about 700 miles ago. Is this the probable cause of my leaks? If so, what are my options with regard to getting dealer to foot some of the repair? How can I prove that they overfilled?
Interestingly, when I popped the hood this morning to check the fluids, I find that the dipstick is registering a level past the measuring marks of the stick, on the wire itself. I have not added any oil to this car period and the dealer did the change about 700 miles ago. Is this the probable cause of my leaks? If so, what are my options with regard to getting dealer to foot some of the repair? How can I prove that they overfilled?
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05-24-02, 06:07 AM
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Lexus Service
Midlifer:
Welcome to the world of Lexus service! By and large the mechanics are very competent but mistakes can be made at any level of service. I bought my '92 in 1994 and stopped taking it to the dealer after the warranty ran out. My big eye opener was the 60k routine service which was billed at $1200. Typical stuff, change fluids, lots of check this and check that. Only major item was replacement of timing belt. Since manufacturer did not specify change of belt at that mileage, I was a little ticked and they begrudgingly refunded about $275. My opinion is that they are used to dealing with a lot of people that don't bat an eye when they see service bills in the thousands. On one warranty trip the lady next to me spent $1000 to replace her ES300 speedometer (needle light went out). Mine went out under warranty. All things considered, the cars are great. There are several forums, this one included, which give invaluable information for the do it yourselfer ( I saved my alternator by changing the leaking power steering pump in time). The early models are build strong and last a long time. Good Luck and enjoy the nice ride!
Welcome to the world of Lexus service! By and large the mechanics are very competent but mistakes can be made at any level of service. I bought my '92 in 1994 and stopped taking it to the dealer after the warranty ran out. My big eye opener was the 60k routine service which was billed at $1200. Typical stuff, change fluids, lots of check this and check that. Only major item was replacement of timing belt. Since manufacturer did not specify change of belt at that mileage, I was a little ticked and they begrudgingly refunded about $275. My opinion is that they are used to dealing with a lot of people that don't bat an eye when they see service bills in the thousands. On one warranty trip the lady next to me spent $1000 to replace her ES300 speedometer (needle light went out). Mine went out under warranty. All things considered, the cars are great. There are several forums, this one included, which give invaluable information for the do it yourselfer ( I saved my alternator by changing the leaking power steering pump in time). The early models are build strong and last a long time. Good Luck and enjoy the nice ride!
05-24-02, 06:44 AM
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Hey Mid LIfer ,
Mine's a 91 w/ 129K now. I bought with 98K , and had a rear mail seal go 2 weeks later, it was covered under Mass lemon law and I saw the bill for $400, the remove the tranny , install the $40 seal and put the tranny back , about a 4 hour job for any good mechanic.
I also have the "small crack" in the coolant reservoir.
Slow slow leak , right ? Any how I tried many things
but the heat usually breaks it down after a while.
The best luck I had was using PVC primer to clean it
and then the PVC glue. It lasted about 5 months.
I use it ONLY on the outside, you don't want to get
it circulated in the system , try that and see if you like
it. The tank is like $180 or so I think.
Mine's a 91 w/ 129K now. I bought with 98K , and had a rear mail seal go 2 weeks later, it was covered under Mass lemon law and I saw the bill for $400, the remove the tranny , install the $40 seal and put the tranny back , about a 4 hour job for any good mechanic.
I also have the "small crack" in the coolant reservoir.
Slow slow leak , right ? Any how I tried many things
but the heat usually breaks it down after a while.
The best luck I had was using PVC primer to clean it
and then the PVC glue. It lasted about 5 months.
I use it ONLY on the outside, you don't want to get
it circulated in the system , try that and see if you like
it. The tank is like $180 or so I think.
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