RVH

This is driving me crazy. One minute car will start, the next it won't. I went out this morning and it started right up. Great. Went to a meeting and came out after an hour and it barely turned over one time. Seemed the battery died in an hour. But, I know it's not the battery as it started right up an hour ago and no lights, headlights, interior lights or anything were left on during that hour. (And, even if a dome light was left on, the battery wouldn't die in an hour.

I got the car home and turned it off. I decided to test the situation by trying to start it a few times. It started right up the first three times (and the battery sounded strong) and then on the fourth it barely turned over half a turn.

Battery is less than a year old and in good shape. I swapped out the battery cable assembly on the positive side as it had corroded and wasn't making a good connection. (I thought this was the culprit.) All connections are very tight and strong.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Bob

PS, I just went out and measured the drainage on the battery. The battery itself shows about 12.5 volts indicating it's fully charged. When I pull the positive cable off and measure the load between the positive side of the battery and the cable itself (I could be wrong, but isn't this a measure of the pull on the battery?) and it showed 11 volts.

Neofate

iTrader: (1)

Odd electrical problem.

I'd still check the battery for load/cell failure -- (take it to NTB, or other shops) and they will test for free. Letting you know for good if it is good or bad.

I would also take the meter out,. and measure the voltage with the car off.. Remember that.

Now start the car up,.. and measure the voltage,.. remember that figure -- Note the difference.

Now with meter on terminals, reach over by TB and rev the engine a bit and watch the charge. This will give you a good idea of if the Alternator is working 'as intended' -- If you don't know what it should be doing give us the numbers and we'll let you know if its proper.

Good luck,..

RVH

Thanks for the response. Here are the readings:

Car off: 12.2 volts
Car idling: 14.2 volts
Car at 3,000 rpm 14.4 volts (but variable, only a slight increase from idle)

Any idea what this indicates?

This time the car started right up after sitting for three hours at 35 degrees.

Now that I think about it, it usually starts when it's cold and when the "intermittency problem" exhibits itself it's when it's been driven and then turned off and restarted within an hour or so.

How can I figure out if there is an excessive drain on the battery while off?

Thanks,

Bob

RVH

I took it to NTB and they checked the battery and alternator and both check out good. They had no idea what it could be. I brought it to Lexus this morning and will let you know what they find.

Bob

Neofate

iTrader: (1)

The numbers look perfect. Thanks.

Interesting the battery and alt check out.

To find a drain on battery use your meter. Go somewhere,.. and when it usually has problems. Check your battery. Keep doing this before you start it. Pop the hood take a reading, write it down, with day/date/time.

The battery will lose a touch of charge over time but not much. If you have a drain on it it will lose a significant amount in quick amount of time.

Lexus should be able to figure it out -- However if it is intermittent, say an intermittent drain (off and on) -- or the altenator is intermittently working.. perfect then nothing. They might not find it.

I would check wiring as well. Do a wiggle test,.. and unconnect and reconnect the wiring. It could be something as simple as a wire gone bad, nicked or some such.

CUMan

12.2 volts seems too low to me. A fully charged battery in good condition should read somewhere in the area of 12.6-12.8 volts. I would suspect you have a bad cell in the battery.

You could get a hydrometer and check the specific gravity reading of each cell. Look for variations in the readings. A cell with a reading significantly lower than the others indicates a bad cell.

RVH

Lexus dealer checked it out and charged me $100 for the diagnostic. Here's what they said: power steering pump is leaking on the alternator which has gone bad and has caused problems with the starter. Oh, and the battery is "underpowered" for the car (despite the fact it has 665 CCA when the car is spec'd for 580 CCA min).

Seems they just spent five minutes on it and said to replace the whole thing and spend $2800.

I am going to replace the battery anyway. I agree that 12.2 sounds too low. And, I'll do all the checks you recommended and report back.

The car's 15-yrs old and even though the engine is fantastic (it's still the most fun car I've ever driven) and it rides great, I can't see dumping $2800 into a car with essentially zero Kelly Blue Book value.

Thanks,

Bob

Neofate

iTrader: (1)

Heh.. funny. Everything is bad that could be bad with your ignition/starting system -- So you should replace it. Nice approach.

If they say the power steering is leaking on the alt, then its from either the bottom of the pump -- (check around pulley bearing) and idle air control valve (ACV) fitting. Nonetheless check it -- No use in doing more harm to the alternator if they are 'right'.

The alternator isn't easy to change, and the starter is even worse in position. So hopefully you can check for leaks, (ask them where the leak was exactly) -- and obviously replace that battery.

$2800 is rediculous to dump into a car worth 3-4k at most. But, if the car is reliable, and nice, as these often are -- It is worth finding out the exact problem (fact from fiction) and getting an indie mechanic to do the work for half price. Or yourself if your so inclined. I think you can handle the battery.

Also the diff in 12.2 and 12.4 or 12.6 isn't a whole heck of alot. It is 400-500mV but, I don't think it would cause your issue. Where it just doesn't crank.

On the converse, the other day I left the accessories/lights on for quite a while , while doing something to the car,.. and then the radio when off while I was cleaning the dash. Seemed odd. I turned the key, nadda. No try, no dimming,.. I was like huh, weird. Car has a new starter.

I turned it off, opened the hood and fiddled with the terminals a bit, and got back in and it cranked up. A hair weak though from so much being pulled.. No problem since.

So these cars might 'sometimes' just not even attempt to turn that starter unless X voltage is being read.. it almost seemed like that was the case anyhow.

1UZFE

i don't know what's wrong with your car and i'm not a mechanic. but i will share with you what i am in the middle of with my 1993 LS400 with 120k miles.

i bought it 4 years ago with 70k miles while i was living in NJ. since i got the car i'd noticed what i thought was water vapor coming from the vents when i first turned on the a/c. both a/c and heat worked great. ...4 years later in miami... one morning the "vapor" was so thick it filled the cabin of my car. i got so light-headed in about 5 seconds i almost passed out and i had to open the windows of my car to air it out. i realized i was not dealing with water vapor. i also noticed that i no longer had heat. it didn't matter if the car was warm or cold, if the a/c was on or off, or what the temp setting was...

i brought it to lexus thinking they had better diagnostic tools. i did find out that this might be true for newer models, but not a '93. (sorry, trying to keep this short...) i was told my servo motor that controls the blending doors was bad and it would have to be replaced. cost, about $350 (parts and labor). they also gave me a laundry list of suggested maintenance. the one they "strongly suggested" was to replace the timing belt. $85 in parts, $1k in labor. i know it's a very labor intensive job. our belts are rated for 90k, i have 120k. fine, maybe it's time. i tell them to do the servo motor (since i'm already paying the $105 diagnosis charge), and i'll shop around for a better price on the timing belt maintenance.

that better price came in over the phone at $985 from all import tech (AIT) (need work in miami? call julio, I STRONGLY RECOMMEND. he's straight up). after some investigation, if lexus were to do all the work AIT suggested, which included a water pump and some other seals, their quote jumped to $1500.

so 3 days AFTER lexus told me i would have my car back, i get a call from lexus and they tell me that after waiting all this time for the servo motor, it wasn't the problem in the first place. (but of course, to cover their ***, supposedly the arm connected to the blending doors was disconnected. they went ahead and fixed that for me. sure.) the REAL problem was that i had a leak in my heater core. what a surprise, $1500 to fix. (new heater core: $450, plus 10 hours of labor).

according to lexus, $3k to fix my $5k car.

so i bring the car to AIT wondering if it's worth doing ANY work. on the spot julio suggests bypassing the heater core altogether which leaves me with no leak, but no heat either. if i were staying in miami it would have been a viable alternative, but since i'm moving back to NJ in a month...

he also suggests some $30 "liquid glass" sealant, usually used for leaky gaskets, radiators...etc. he's had the car for a day and he already thinks the sealant will work. it stopped the leak for now and he's going to continue to monitor it while he has the car for the timing belt change. if this doesn't work, the quote for a new heater core is just under $1k. still $500 under lexus.

THE KICKER...

while i was researching what could be the problem and what people suggest to fix it, i read that putting the green antifreeze in my ls400 is BAD. ONLY PUT IN THE RED. so, when i pick up my car from lexus, who charged me $115 for a haphazard diagnosis and for keeping my car for a week and a half, i asked a "service manager" about the fact that i have green anti-freeze in my car. is this bad? "no, it's fine. just don't mix the red and green. green is otherwise fine."

however, julio at AIT disagrees. he explains that the silicone (i think he said silicone) in the green antifreeze bonds with the aluminum in the car and causes leaks. NEVER USE ANYTHING BUT THE RED.

SUMMARY...

lexus wanted to charge me $3k for $800 in parts. AIT will probably end up fixing my car for $1k with under $250 in parts, if the liquid glass holds...otherwise, $2k for about $700 in parts.

THIS SITE IS INVALUABLE. thank you. most sincerely, thank you.

python

iTrader: (4)

your battery should be a group 27 i believe, your battery should be at 12.66 volts, thats a perfect battery, it sounds to me like a starter problem, if it turns out to be a starter problem, make sure to replace the knock sensors located in the valley of the intake

CUMan

Python is correct. The correct battery size is 27. However, it should be a 27R or 27F to fit properly. The positive side of the battery should be on the left side, looking at the battery head-on.

It may not be easy to find a 27 size battery. A 24F or 24R will also fit the space. These are slightly smaller than the 27 size.

RVH

I talked with a master Toyota mechanic who specializes in electric stuff. He had me check the power drain on the battery by putting an ampmeter between the disconnected negative/ground battery cable and the negative battery post. It came in a 300 milli-amps which is a about a factor of ten higher than it should be.

That still doesn't answer the question as to why, after driving the car 125 miles and turning it off at a gas station that it won't start. He seems to think it's the alternator combined with a heavy power leakage.

re: the battery size, I don't think the physical size of the battery matters much. What matters is the CCA rating and the one I have in there is rated 660 and the car requires 580 as a minimum.

I'll continue to let you guys know what I find out.

Bob

TheBigGuy

sorry for bringing this thread back to life but have any of you guys fixed this (weak battery) problem? my battery gets really weak if i have accesories (wipers, defrosters, and headlights) on when its raining.. i found out that revving the engine between 1500rpms-2000rpms for a good 30 seconds "revives" the battery. Also, if the battery is weak when i turn off the engine than it wont start back up anymore. BUT, if i rev the engine for a couple seconds before turning the engine off, it will start back up no problem.

Battery is a 730CCA that the previous owner bought last year

Edit: there are no leaks on the alternator and no corrosion on the battery terminals

dacecil

Check your cd changer to see if the voltage loss is happening there. I had a similar problem and found the cd changer was acting like it was ejecting cd's that weren't in there. It would just cycle and cycle, even with the key off. The light was always on too, the one that says "open." I unplugged the cd changer and no more power drain problem.

Dale

TheBigGuy

interesting, i do hear the cd changer or even the stereo deck clicking whenever the battery gets weak (lights dimming, battery light turning on and off)... will check to see if it happens with the key off

anybody else experience this?