Hoping for clarification on unlit needle issue
03-19-08, 07:41 AM
#31
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http://www.coolight.com/category-s/52.htm
That or a similar product looks promising...
So does anyone know the voltage supplied to the needles, how it is delivered or where a tutorial on needle removal might be? Would it be tricky to calibrate the needles again if you removed them to install EL wire?
That or a similar product looks promising...
So does anyone know the voltage supplied to the needles, how it is delivered or where a tutorial on needle removal might be? Would it be tricky to calibrate the needles again if you removed them to install EL wire?
03-19-08, 12:32 PM
#32
Driver School Candidate
Cool mod potential!
Fencera,
Great idea with the electroluminescent wire as a replacement for the fluoro tubes. I don't know what the voltage is to the needles. The voltage to the background cold cathode tubes is about 90vac to start and about 45vac constant running. The spec on the wire from Israel shows a voltage of 100vac as the operating voltage. Might be a bit of a stretch, but at $1/foot it might be worth buying a bit and playing around with it to see how it performs at 45vac. I'm think of doing just that, since I'm going to have to fab a new needle anyway. Balancing or recalibrating after that will be the next challenge. -Rick
Great idea with the electroluminescent wire as a replacement for the fluoro tubes. I don't know what the voltage is to the needles. The voltage to the background cold cathode tubes is about 90vac to start and about 45vac constant running. The spec on the wire from Israel shows a voltage of 100vac as the operating voltage. Might be a bit of a stretch, but at $1/foot it might be worth buying a bit and playing around with it to see how it performs at 45vac. I'm think of doing just that, since I'm going to have to fab a new needle anyway. Balancing or recalibrating after that will be the next challenge. -Rick
03-19-08, 07:00 PM
#34
Driver School Candidate
Och,
I have carefully disassembled the gage movement and determined that the sticking problem comes from the nylon disc needle stop contacting the metal limit arm in a way that provides too much surface area and a very viscous lube used to dampen the mechanism. I cleaned all of the lube off the contact points where the disc and limit arm contact and the sticking is gone. It needs no lube at that point anyway. It's just a stop to keep the needle at zero when the power is off or the car isn't moving.
As for the wire, I have to replace my needle because it cracked and broke, so I am going to fabricate a replacement needle from the luminescent wire and install it in its place. I'm pretty sure the needles and the background "cold cathodes" use the same 45vac, so the luminescent wire should work, although it is rated at 130vac so the brightness may come into question.
I ordered a couple of feet of 2.3mm white wire tonight and will play with it when it gets here. The old needle was 0.093" and the new wire ranges from 0.083" to 0.123" so it should fit. It also comes in every color under the rainbow!
The balance adjustment is made with a screw at the back of the needle that is screwed in or out to counter balance the weight, so I think I can figure that one out. I'll let folks know how it goes. -Rick
I have carefully disassembled the gage movement and determined that the sticking problem comes from the nylon disc needle stop contacting the metal limit arm in a way that provides too much surface area and a very viscous lube used to dampen the mechanism. I cleaned all of the lube off the contact points where the disc and limit arm contact and the sticking is gone. It needs no lube at that point anyway. It's just a stop to keep the needle at zero when the power is off or the car isn't moving.
As for the wire, I have to replace my needle because it cracked and broke, so I am going to fabricate a replacement needle from the luminescent wire and install it in its place. I'm pretty sure the needles and the background "cold cathodes" use the same 45vac, so the luminescent wire should work, although it is rated at 130vac so the brightness may come into question.
I ordered a couple of feet of 2.3mm white wire tonight and will play with it when it gets here. The old needle was 0.093" and the new wire ranges from 0.083" to 0.123" so it should fit. It also comes in every color under the rainbow!
The balance adjustment is made with a screw at the back of the needle that is screwed in or out to counter balance the weight, so I think I can figure that one out. I'll let folks know how it goes. -Rick
03-20-08, 06:49 AM
#35
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That's great you ordered some of the EL wire. Hopefully it will work out.
I have kept looking into the CCFL tubes and must say, the voltages you specified seem awfully low. Given it's an automotive application, they may be lower than "normal", but are you sure those are the correct values?
http://www.ccfldirect.com/2x13fuspccla1.html
Those also look as if they may work. However, I am not sure of the length and the voltages are ridiculous to say the least...
http://www.bosstar.com/china/ccfl-application.html
In looking around, there are a number of companies that say they produce automotive CCFLs (for instrument panels... but I don't know if it's only back lighting). If the EL wire doesn't work out and it's not possible to pick up some appropriate CCFL tubes, it may be worth contacting one of these companies to see if they have a product that matches the specifications we have (and then see if they have a distributor!).
Good luck with the EL and please keep us posted on how it works. Thanks.
I have kept looking into the CCFL tubes and must say, the voltages you specified seem awfully low. Given it's an automotive application, they may be lower than "normal", but are you sure those are the correct values?
http://www.ccfldirect.com/2x13fuspccla1.html
Those also look as if they may work. However, I am not sure of the length and the voltages are ridiculous to say the least...
http://www.bosstar.com/china/ccfl-application.html
In looking around, there are a number of companies that say they produce automotive CCFLs (for instrument panels... but I don't know if it's only back lighting). If the EL wire doesn't work out and it's not possible to pick up some appropriate CCFL tubes, it may be worth contacting one of these companies to see if they have a product that matches the specifications we have (and then see if they have a distributor!).
Good luck with the EL and please keep us posted on how it works. Thanks.
03-20-08, 08:58 AM
#36
Driver School Candidate
a bit more...
fencera,
You're right, it does seem low but those were the actual voltage measurements made when I discovered the C212 capacitor problem 5 years ago. But it was for the background lights and I'm only assuming at this point that the needle CCFLs use the same values. I found the CCFL in my son's laptop screen also ran at about 45vac, so it may be more common than we think. Adjusting the dimmer may increase this voltage. I was not set up to try that.
I have two concerns with the EL wire; one is the luminescence at the lower voltage, and the other is longevity - Lytec claims their wire is only good for about 1000hrs before it degrades to 50% of its former brilliance, and 30% at 3000 hrs. That is at the rated 120vac and running them at a lower voltage will probably help, but that is only a few years for someone operating their car daily.
On another question, the voltage is supplied to the needle through two clock springs, counter wound to balance their forces. Getting the power to the new needle will be a challenge, to say the least...
You're right, it does seem low but those were the actual voltage measurements made when I discovered the C212 capacitor problem 5 years ago. But it was for the background lights and I'm only assuming at this point that the needle CCFLs use the same values. I found the CCFL in my son's laptop screen also ran at about 45vac, so it may be more common than we think. Adjusting the dimmer may increase this voltage. I was not set up to try that.
I have two concerns with the EL wire; one is the luminescence at the lower voltage, and the other is longevity - Lytec claims their wire is only good for about 1000hrs before it degrades to 50% of its former brilliance, and 30% at 3000 hrs. That is at the rated 120vac and running them at a lower voltage will probably help, but that is only a few years for someone operating their car daily.
On another question, the voltage is supplied to the needle through two clock springs, counter wound to balance their forces. Getting the power to the new needle will be a challenge, to say the least...
03-21-08, 12:30 PM
#37
BBA Remanufacturing Inc
300 Myles Standish Blvd.
Taunton, MA 02780
(866) 573-2740
us-sales@bba-reman.com
www.bba-reman.com
Mon-Fri 9 am - 5:30 pm ET
Just an FYI
This company advertises on Ebay (excellent rating) and re-builds LS400 clusters for 175.00 fixing all problems including fading needles (completely dark and broken needles repaired @ 75.00 per)
300 Myles Standish Blvd.
Taunton, MA 02780
(866) 573-2740
us-sales@bba-reman.com
www.bba-reman.com
Mon-Fri 9 am - 5:30 pm ET
Just an FYI
This company advertises on Ebay (excellent rating) and re-builds LS400 clusters for 175.00 fixing all problems including fading needles (completely dark and broken needles repaired @ 75.00 per)
03-21-08, 04:46 PM
#38
Driver School Candidate
An update...
Bradster,
Looks like a good tip for those folks not comfortable with board level repairs or fine detail work. I'm inclined to want to develop a fix that can be accomplished very inexpensively and easily, then share it with those who would like to try.
I have determined a method for snapping the trim cap off of the needle base (93-94) that will minimize the possibility of damage to the axle. Once off, the CCFL needle is held in by two metal clips and simply snaps out as well. The metal clips provide the power input, so a replacement that picks up power in the same locations and is the same diameter should work just fine. The Lytec 2.3mm EL wire looks like a good alternative; its the same diameter, uses the same ac voltage, it's plastic so that it can be cut to length and it doesn't require conductive paint to carry the voltage out to the tip like the CCFL needles. Plus the EL wire is $1 per foot, and the needle is only 2.75". I have a design on my board utilizing 3M #1181 copper foil tape that should work very well. When I'm done next weekend, I'll post a picture, if I can figure out how to do that... -Rick
Looks like a good tip for those folks not comfortable with board level repairs or fine detail work. I'm inclined to want to develop a fix that can be accomplished very inexpensively and easily, then share it with those who would like to try.
I have determined a method for snapping the trim cap off of the needle base (93-94) that will minimize the possibility of damage to the axle. Once off, the CCFL needle is held in by two metal clips and simply snaps out as well. The metal clips provide the power input, so a replacement that picks up power in the same locations and is the same diameter should work just fine. The Lytec 2.3mm EL wire looks like a good alternative; its the same diameter, uses the same ac voltage, it's plastic so that it can be cut to length and it doesn't require conductive paint to carry the voltage out to the tip like the CCFL needles. Plus the EL wire is $1 per foot, and the needle is only 2.75". I have a design on my board utilizing 3M #1181 copper foil tape that should work very well. When I'm done next weekend, I'll post a picture, if I can figure out how to do that... -Rick
03-21-08, 04:46 PM
#39
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While helpful, that does absolutely nothing to help solve the "how do/can I/ME/WE solve this problem ourselves"
Really, I KNOW people are just trying to help, but if someone CAN'T find several people/companies that they can pay to do this job for them, then such a person is simply too lazy to do a search or even read the threads, and SHOULDN'T be helped by reposting the same information dozens of times, and in dozens of different ways.
Any ideas on how to DIY?
Really, I KNOW people are just trying to help, but if someone CAN'T find several people/companies that they can pay to do this job for them, then such a person is simply too lazy to do a search or even read the threads, and SHOULDN'T be helped by reposting the same information dozens of times, and in dozens of different ways.Any ideas on how to DIY?
03-21-08, 07:29 PM
#40
Driver School Candidate
Drewkaree,
I agree on the DIY. I don't let other people touch my Lexy. What I've learned so far is that replacement CCFL needles are impossible to acquire separatly, and are only available from junk yard units, or from Lexus as part of an expensive gage assembly replacement part ($350). The solution I'm working on should end up with a simple, inexpensive replacement that will be snap-out, snap-in, much like any other bulb replacement, but requiring some skill to prevent damaging anything, and rebalancing which should also be fairly simple. It really all depends on the performance of the Lytec wire, and I'll have that next week. All the other problems have been solved, and the only thing left is to write it up into a tutorial, with pictures.
I agree on the DIY. I don't let other people touch my Lexy. What I've learned so far is that replacement CCFL needles are impossible to acquire separatly, and are only available from junk yard units, or from Lexus as part of an expensive gage assembly replacement part ($350). The solution I'm working on should end up with a simple, inexpensive replacement that will be snap-out, snap-in, much like any other bulb replacement, but requiring some skill to prevent damaging anything, and rebalancing which should also be fairly simple. It really all depends on the performance of the Lytec wire, and I'll have that next week. All the other problems have been solved, and the only thing left is to write it up into a tutorial, with pictures.
03-22-08, 09:51 AM
#41
Driver School Candidate
Ugh...
Guys,
The wire arrived today from Coolight (fast!) and I'm a little disappointed. Unless a needle can be made to look EXACTLY like the original, I won't be happy, and this stuff looks ribbed. I'm going to go ahead and play with it anyway, since I have little choice, but if anyone wants to try and find the original manufacturer who provided the little fluorescent tubes to Denso/Mikkado/Whoever, I've attached a picture with the specs on the tube. I'm guessing they aren't being manufactured anymore from the responses I'm getting back, and if they can be made again, they will be very expensive. But I'm only guessing.
As for the paint repair, I stand corrected on my earlier estimate that it probably wouldn't do any good. There is no electrode at the tip of the tube, so the fluorescence is comming continuously along its length from the interaction with the conductive film on the outside. In my case, the film became brittle, cracked, and then the 90vac arced over the gap and the spark cracked my needle. So, I'm toast. But those who have not yet had a failure, or only a partial failure, or the glass is intact, may be able to recover by stripping and repainting the conductive film.
Here's the picture. -Rick
The wire arrived today from Coolight (fast!) and I'm a little disappointed. Unless a needle can be made to look EXACTLY like the original, I won't be happy, and this stuff looks ribbed. I'm going to go ahead and play with it anyway, since I have little choice, but if anyone wants to try and find the original manufacturer who provided the little fluorescent tubes to Denso/Mikkado/Whoever, I've attached a picture with the specs on the tube. I'm guessing they aren't being manufactured anymore from the responses I'm getting back, and if they can be made again, they will be very expensive. But I'm only guessing.
As for the paint repair, I stand corrected on my earlier estimate that it probably wouldn't do any good. There is no electrode at the tip of the tube, so the fluorescence is comming continuously along its length from the interaction with the conductive film on the outside. In my case, the film became brittle, cracked, and then the 90vac arced over the gap and the spark cracked my needle. So, I'm toast. But those who have not yet had a failure, or only a partial failure, or the glass is intact, may be able to recover by stripping and repainting the conductive film.
Here's the picture. -Rick
Last edited by RickyGee; 03-22-08 at 10:07 AM.
03-22-08, 08:30 PM
#42
Driver School Candidate
Bummer
No joy. The EL wire from Lytec is too dim, even at 115vac. Back to the drawing board. I did find find 2.3mm X 72mm tubes in Germany at http://www.backlight4you.com/product...----white.html
but there has to be a domestic supplier for these. Apparently, they are used in PDAs for backlighting. -Rick
but there has to be a domestic supplier for these. Apparently, they are used in PDAs for backlighting. -Rick
03-22-08, 09:01 PM
#43
Found some information on repairiting these needless. Ricky, if you're going to proceed with this fix, please keep us updated - I'm getting curious now, and I might as well fix my needless as well.
http://www.lexusownersclub.com/Fix_f...us_Needles.pdf
Also now that I'm thinking about it, I remember there is a company that makes different color needless for early Lexus, - SC, LS, ES and GS. I can't remember the name of that company for the life of me, but they have a nice website, and the cost if I rember right is around $150 for a set of brand new needles, your choice of color.
http://www.lexusownersclub.com/Fix_f...us_Needles.pdf
Also now that I'm thinking about it, I remember there is a company that makes different color needless for early Lexus, - SC, LS, ES and GS. I can't remember the name of that company for the life of me, but they have a nice website, and the cost if I rember right is around $150 for a set of brand new needles, your choice of color.
03-23-08, 08:57 AM
#45
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Rick, you said it looks like stripping and repainting the conductive paint should work. Does the paint cover the entire end of the tube that doesn't have the conductor/plug on it?
Also, your EL wire is ribbed. Can you take a few snaps of it for us? Both by itself, and lit up so we can gauge the brightness of the wire? While it may not be an EXACT replacement, and the ribs might look funky, if it's bright enough, I'm sure there's other sources out there that are ribless.
Also, your EL wire is ribbed. Can you take a few snaps of it for us? Both by itself, and lit up so we can gauge the brightness of the wire? While it may not be an EXACT replacement, and the ribs might look funky, if it's bright enough, I'm sure there's other sources out there that are ribless.