Horta

Hey all I just ran this report for ndauderman who just totaled his car. Some of you may have already read his thread and may not go back so I am posting this information here too.

I hope this can help someone out.

If you need a nother year or models just let me know.


Well I have access to the Manheim Auctions transaction nationwide. I can tell you every car that was sold thru one of their auction in the last month. So I just now quickly put together for you what the 1998 thru 2000 LS and the 01 and 02 LS430 sold for. This is a DEALER only auction. So all of these cars were bought by dealer with the sole intention of selling them on their lots to the public. So with that add $3,000 to the final price or more as their profit. The point is these prices are also considered the fair "Market" value of the car. Meaning if you were a private person and looked to sell a LS this is about what you would expect to sell it for or what you expect to pay as a buyer. Does this make sense. Feel free to ask me any question is you don't understand or just need more info.

When I was buying my LS having this this information was amazing. Dealer were totally blow away that I new so much.

If you not savvy with excel or just don't have it let me know in what format you wish to see it in and I will try to help you.

Horta

opps I deleated the file.

I sorted it by miles to make it easier to read for those not Excel savvy.

There are five tabs on the bottom of the page. One for each year. Just click on the year you want info on.

Horta

Hey I was finally looking at the report. Do you see all the 01 LS430 Leas returns up for auctions!

WOW lots of 01's for sale out there.

DeniskaGS4

hey buddy can you run a report for a 2003 Mercedes e320 excel is fine

thanks

Horta

Hey those be fighting words buddy!

Yeah no problem.

You have three tabs E320, E320 Sport, and E500

GSing430

how do u determine what options those vehicle has? like ultra lux, navi, etc. are those prices base?
currently i'm looking to get a 01 and up LS430 w/ navi

thanks
Michael

Horta

Its amazing going to a dealer auction. I went to the Palm Beach "High Line" Auction when I was looking for my car. Honestly the buyers could care less what options were in the car. Now I am sure if it was a Ultra it would command a little more but not the $11k cost diff when new. From looking at these reports you have NO CLUE what options are on the car. Again these cars are bought in person at the auction. All the cars are parked in giant lots. Most of the buyers get there early and take a walk around the lots for the cars they are looking for. Some may get in a realy look and the car some may just walk around on the outside and check for body damage. They do NOT worry about does this car have the Levenson or Nakamichi radio. Most of them are there to buy many cars and just don't have the time to get the deatils of every single car. When the car rolls up to the Auction line its amazing how fast the bidding starts and finishes. No balony the cars I wanted to bid on were only on the auction block for about 2 minutes or less. Its thats fast and frantic. Now remember they probably ran 1,000 cars thru two or four auction lanes (I can not remember) that day. This is a fast and frantic pace.

Anyways the information I gave you is a good referance point for you to know what they are paying.

usermel

I have been to the Manheim here also 45 times. The prices dealers pay for cars is far less than what they charge consumers. I will never buy new again when it comes to luxury cars. If the price the dealer pays is that low, what does it say about the true value of cars. This is why i have been so upset with dealerships also, besides the lies they told me in the past and bad treatment. They are over charging sometimes $5,000-$8,000 dollars on these cars. I have seen 2001 LS430's go between $30,000-$32,000 here with Navigation/Mark Levinson. They charge in Va.Beach between $40,000-$43,000 all day. The dealership,is named Charles Barker Lexus, now they have another dealership Lexus Dealership 25 miles from there Va.Beach dealership in Newport News,Va. The car biz is very Scary if you don't know there game. I know someone who owns a Lexus dealership who won't buy a new Lexus, he only buys used and owns a 1996 LS. When i met him he was a salesman and i never understood why and kept asking him. After going to Manheim i fully understood. Buyer beware, the black book on cars isn't what they let they consumer see. If you knew the true numbers you would be very upset with your car purchases of the past. GOOD LOOKING OUT HORTA TRYING TO HELP PEOLE. I KNEW THIS INFO FOR ABOUT A YEAR BUT DIDN"T SAY BECAUSE I FELT NOBODY WOULD LISTEN. ITS LIKE BEFORE I KNEW, UNTIL SEEING WITH MY OWN EYES I DIDN'T BELIVE IT. THE QUESTION IS WILL CONSUMERS LISTEN? LOVE GOD ALL THE TIME.

OneOfOne

there is a publication that you can get here:


http://www.vmrintl.com/


that tells you the average price of cars bought at auction based on actual transaction prices. they break it down to what the vehicle is worth based on the included options. if you dont think these guys know or care whats in the car youre a fool. just try haggling and see how long it takes before they quote what is in there. and if you try and buy from a lexus or other high end dealer the markup is even higher.

Horta

Digital

Hey thanks for the site. Yes they have good info but that is retail and supposidly "Wholesale" prices. There is NO WHERE in writing or on the internet what the real Wholesale prices are of cars except for Auction report from Manheim or other large Dealer auction house. The best book published is the DEALERS ONLY Black Book.

Just for exampel the VMR web site shows a 2000 LS400 with 50 to 60k miles Wholes value at $27,000. If you look at the Manheim report you see the Average wholesale price at $21,000. Now mind you the dealer need to spen another $500 in Auction fees or more plus transportation to there lott (Maybe $400 max). Plus they need to clean/ detail and fix what ever may be needed to get it ready for sale.

As far as the options go thebuyers at the auction are just that buyers. They try to get the most amount of cars for the least amount of money. Trust me I have been there and seen it they are not worried about the specific different options. Its the salesman on the lot that will hipe up all the options and tell you this car is worth more than that one. About the only option they do pay attention is sunroof and navigation.

Let me alos explain why. These buyers are just that buyers. They are not Lexus or BMW salespeople. They for the most parts have no clue wether a LS400 comes with the Nak radio or the Levenson radio or that a BWM comes with a Harmon Kardon radio or whatever. They may look to see that it has CD but that it. They have a request from the dealer to get x amount of luxery cars x amount of midsize cars or what ever. They may have a specific request to get LS400s or maybe BMW 5 series. Its what everr car is selling in there market. now if a LS happend to go thru that is at a good price for him he wil bid on it and if no one out bids him he bought it. If he did not happen to go lok at that car before the bidding begun he may not even know anything about the car. Execpt what he sees right when the bidding begins. When the bidding begins the Auction house teel you very quickly that the car has a clean titel in hand or not and they tell you if its ever been in an accident or not thats it. When the car rolls up on the line a million buyers rush up to it and start feeling all the gaps and looking at the fender for accidents. If that buyer happend to get there late this may be the very first time he see the car and still has to bid on it.

Trust me I like most of us on CL are total car nuts. I was totaly blown away how this dealer auction stuff worked. I had no idea who the cars we dream and cheries of owning one day were treat, looked and and bought like cattel.

Ok my good friend Jeff runs a website some of you may have visited Carbuyingtips.com. He actually went to the Manheim Auction with my buddy the dealer and wrote the following report on his website. He was also scocked at the way dealer bought there cars.

http://www.carbuyingtips.com/auto-au...z_ttky3&y=0x40

Wholesale Auto Auctions & Manheim Car Auctions
These car auctions are for car dealers only, usually run by Manheim car auctions, and the general public is not allowed to attend. The cars at the Manheim auto auctions auctions fall into these categories:
Cars that are returned after their lease expires.
Rental Cars from car rental agencies.
Brands of used cars that a dealer received as a trade in, but does not normally sell.
A new hot seller that a dealer may be able to sell over MSRP in the car auctions.
Exotic cars, either new or used, that some collector dealers are trying to sell.
Used cars over 4 years old that most major dealers don't want on their lots.
Florida Car Auctions: Can't I just get into a wholesale auto auction and buy my car there?
All these tips apply whether you're at Florida car auctions, California car auctions, New York car auctions, Ohio car auctions. No you can't waltz in there like you're going to Disney World. You have to be a licensed dealer to get into wholesale car auctions, even if you only sell a few cars a month out of your house, you still need to be licensed. In fact, you cannot even view any information on the Manheim Auto Auctions web sites unless you are signed up with them as a registered dealer. To become a registered car dealer is pretty tough. For example, in Florida, you must complete a 2 day school, take a car dealer test, get yourself bonded, get a Tax ID, get approved by your city, buy insurance, you must have a clean record, then you need an occupational license, costing $150. You need warehouse space, this adds hundreds to thousands of dollars per month, and all this is on the cheap side of guessing the total cost. Then there are audits from the sales tax people. Some dealers used to sneak their clients in but many auctions have already taken steps to prevent that from happening. So the average Joe can forget about getting into this type of auction to get their car. But if you can get in, this is the preferred type of auction to get your next car. You'll have to be able to work out with your dealer friend how the car will be paid, since auctions usually require payment in full on the spot. But if you can get in, the Manheim car auctions are considered top notch. Their Highline auctions are very well regarded, but you still have to beware that rebuilt cars are still passed through these auctions, and the red light occasionally comes on at their auctions just like any other.
One way you can get a car from wholesale auto auctions.
Hopefully you know a licensed private dealer who can get into these auctions, and they can get the advance list of all the cars they plan to auction off that day. Then you can tell your dealer friend which car you want and how much to pay for it. The dealer will most likely want something for their trouble.

How dealers know how much to bid: The Little Black Book
Some guys use a little black book for phone numbers of their girlfriends. At the wholesale auto auctions however, this has a completely different meaning. You'll see dealers walking around with their "Black Books", which is a pocket sized, subscription based mini car pricing book updated at least monthly with regional selling prices from wholesale auto auctions. It's like a Kelley Blue Book for auto auctions. It lists most vehicle makes, and models, and what they should sell for if the vehicle is in bad, fair or good condition. Ideally, the dealers would like to bid on a car and pay less than the black book price for the car, to be sure they are getting a good deal. Many other dealers will use the NADA guide for their pricing. At one wholesale auction I attended, I noted many dealers getting cars for $500 - $1500 below Black Book value, which is really good for them. When they resell the car for fair market value, they will maximize their investment.

You can't just walk the down the row of cars at an auction and determine what it's worth, because the car is only worth as much as the winning bid. The buyers determine that. The pricing books might say that Mercedes is worth $50,000 and you would be foolish to bid that much if the bidding only reaches $47,000, and maybe the seller accepts. Then you were $3,000 to high, and you would have left money on the table. That's why bidding typically starts way less than the published value. By using the Black Book, many bidders have a goal of what price range to shoot for, and usually end up getting slightly less than the book value on a car. Other factors affect the price too, like regional areas, that's why many used car pricing sites ask for the zip code before they. In Florida, black cars will not bid as high as silver, because black cars get too hot. Up north, SUVs and trucks tend to sell higher as winter approaches, and less as summer approaches.

Selling cars at an auto auction
If you're a dealer selling cars at an auto auction it's like a game of poker. The vehicles that you transport to the car auctions are your deck of cards. Everyone is calling everyone else's bluff, and you must convince the bidders that your car is worth the minimum opening bid. You sure don't want to have to drive a transport full of unsold cars all the way back home, it could be a long, lonely ride. If you do sell a vehicle the auto auction house might charge you a $250 sellers fee, depending on the auction house. Sometimes it could be a percent of the sale. If your car does not sell, they still charge you a fee anyway, so life really sucks for a seller who transports several cars to an auction and does not sell any. I feel your pain!

Never try to auction your car at a wholesale auto auction
Unless you have a rare car that is worth something, always retail it on the open market, because auction prices are wholesale, near trade in value, and much less than fair market value. Only auction your car if you need to dump it fast. Don't let your finances get you into the position where you need to unload your car fast, you'll lose the maximum amount of money that way.

Beauty is only skin deep!
Some bidders at car auctions are smart and don't take any chances. They use a clever $549 device called the Elcometer digital coating thickness gauge to measure the thickness of the paint. This tool is simple, you just touch it to the car's painted surfaces, and the LCD readout tells you how thick the paint is. This is useful in flagging cars that have had body work done. You see, the factory paint jobs are usually 4.5 mils thick. When a body shop paints a panel, their process is not refined like the factory, and they often paint over existing paint, doubling the thickness. Once your LCD readout hits the 8-12 mil range, you know that body work was done on this car. As each car in the auction drives up the auction lane to be bid on, you'll see a group of dealers rush up to it and start placing their Elcometer on all the major panels, doors, hood, and trunk, looking for "evidence" of body work.

Some of the better auctions have the mileage written on the windshields so you can rapidly walk up a row of cars in the lot and determine if it meets your mileage requirements without having to open each car up and check the odometer. If the car had previously been in a wreck, sometimes the windshield will have the word "Unibody" written on it, indicating prior accident damage that had been repaired. Mercedes and BMW leasing companies usually do this, GM usually does not. Beware of cars with more than 12,000 miles per year on the odometer. They should bid for much less than similar models with lower mileage.

jtparkes

Horta:

That is great information, much of it I've never heard before.
Thanks for the info-

Jeff

OneOfOne

perhaps I was remiss but you DONT get the pricing info online, you get it in the publications they have which you may find in bookstores if youre lucky but should subscribe to, to ensure you get the books at the cheapest price. I believe they are quarterly. obviously if you can get them in a bookstore you dont have to buy it. the info is accurate and timely but not as timely as a website would be. this publication [used car version and new car version] has saved me cash on each of the last 3 [acura tl 04, ml 320 02, ls 430 ultra 01] cars I have purchased. you will save AT LEAST 100 times the purchase price. and remember this book publishes the average AUCTION selling prices. not just one locations price but nation wide.

usermel

Until people have went to manheim like me and you they won't understand what your telling them. I know were your coming from, the Black Book is a whole different book that dealers have access to and changes weekly. I have plenty of info about these cars but i keep it to myself know Horta. People don't seem to understand until they go themselves. Before i went i was the same way, the dealerships used and new car dealerships send guys to buy cars specially for this reason, to buy used cars. They come with cash in breifcases that are held at the bag claim area of the building. Some carry cashiers checks, the amount of money made by dealers is crazy and cant be explained to people who haven't been to manheim like me and you. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

loonyrobert3

hey Horta,

hey i want to know if u can tell me how much a 98-2003 gs goes for either gs300,400,430!!!!

thanks
robert

Horta

Robert

Ok here you go. I had to break it into two sheet sence one file made it over the max CL upload size. One file is for GS 300 1998 thru 2003 and the second is GS 400 and 430 1998 thru 2003.

I hope this helps.
Jerry