Will the LFA value emulate that of the Toyota 2000GT ?
06-14-15, 08:51 AM
#1
Rookie
Thread Starter
Will the LFA value emulate that of the Toyota 2000GT ?
Only 351 Toyota 2000GTs were made and at the time it was considered a terrible "Halo" car for Toyota due to the high price and limited number produced. It's engine (as well as the rest of the car) was built by Yamaha and it was espoused as the favorite "Bond car" by Daniel Craig. Finally, it was reviewed by Car and Driver in 1967 as "one of the most exciting and enjoyable cars we've driven".
The comparisons are obvious - only 500 LFAs produced and also decried as a terrible Halo car for Lexus due to price and limited production. It's engine - made by Yamaha - is arguably the best 10 cyl engines ever made and the car is a favorite of Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson - also arguably a better car afficiando than Daniel Craig. The LFA has won -and continues to win - all kinds of kudos for those who take the time to understand it.
Today the 2000GTs regularly sell for a million dollars or more (original price back in 1967 was $6800 - much more than comparable Porsches at the time.
So the question is - "do you think the LFA values will come close to seeing the appreciation of the only other Japanese supercar"?
The comparisons are obvious - only 500 LFAs produced and also decried as a terrible Halo car for Lexus due to price and limited production. It's engine - made by Yamaha - is arguably the best 10 cyl engines ever made and the car is a favorite of Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson - also arguably a better car afficiando than Daniel Craig. The LFA has won -and continues to win - all kinds of kudos for those who take the time to understand it.
Today the 2000GTs regularly sell for a million dollars or more (original price back in 1967 was $6800 - much more than comparable Porsches at the time.
So the question is - "do you think the LFA values will come close to seeing the appreciation of the only other Japanese supercar"?
06-14-15, 01:14 PM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
Yes, most definitely it will. Eventually, in about 10 - 15 year's time, it will be selling at prices similar to 2000 GT adjusted for inflation according to its own time.
LFA was bespoke and limited like the 2000 GT, but for their own respective times, the ambitions, aspirations and goals were much tougher and higher to achieve for the LFA. The targets for 2000 GT was to build a sports car that could be used in racing against Porsche Carreras while LFA was intended to be an exotic supercar complete with a purpose-built factory with everything built just for this car in the factory.
LFA was bespoke and limited like the 2000 GT, but for their own respective times, the ambitions, aspirations and goals were much tougher and higher to achieve for the LFA. The targets for 2000 GT was to build a sports car that could be used in racing against Porsche Carreras while LFA was intended to be an exotic supercar complete with a purpose-built factory with everything built just for this car in the factory.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 06-14-15 at 01:19 PM.
06-17-15, 08:03 PM
#3
A: If I haven't said so before, congratulations on acquiring your LFA
B: I believe the scene will be down then up and stay up. Right now the car is mired in a world of new amazing stuff every year and the newest/greatest customers are not looking for 552 HP when they can get 700.
C: In 20 years when today's teens and 20 somethings become successful, they will want the car they dreamed about when they were young.
D: The collectible car market is strange so who knows how the play will go. There are people out there who pay six figures for 70s Mopar crap. When I used to go with my dad to the local Dodge dealer to get one of his crap Polara cars fixed, I would stare at the strange stuff the dealer would have sitting in his 3 car show room (Daytona, Super Bee, a Duster with a 340, Hemi this and Hemi that) and wonder what was going on.
E: The high tech economy collectors should gravitate to the LFA and there are plenty of these stock option rich folks already available. I think the problem short term is that stuff like the new Hybrid NSX may be more to their liking. But once they move up from a 911 to a super car, maybe some of them will want to add an LFA.
F: It would help if some exotic dealer (or a few) started to make a market in these cars. Marshall Goldman seems to have moved more of them than anyone outside a dealership (the Pembroke Pines dealer in FL has been the biggest player in that category). I like to use the Ferrari Dino example. This was a joke car, too small, under powered, if you look at stuff like interior switches, ***** and levers you can see how little effort was put into it. Yet somehow folks became convinced that the design was special and was the basis for their modern cars and prices soared. Compare that to the 308s that sat at $35K for a long time (though appear to be working their way up).
G: The 2000GT itself sat quietly for a few decades and then exploded. Did the LFA project help, yes I think so. That would point to a big jump in LFA prices once Akio's replacement green lights another nutso project in 20 years.
B: I believe the scene will be down then up and stay up. Right now the car is mired in a world of new amazing stuff every year and the newest/greatest customers are not looking for 552 HP when they can get 700.
C: In 20 years when today's teens and 20 somethings become successful, they will want the car they dreamed about when they were young.
D: The collectible car market is strange so who knows how the play will go. There are people out there who pay six figures for 70s Mopar crap. When I used to go with my dad to the local Dodge dealer to get one of his crap Polara cars fixed, I would stare at the strange stuff the dealer would have sitting in his 3 car show room (Daytona, Super Bee, a Duster with a 340, Hemi this and Hemi that) and wonder what was going on.
E: The high tech economy collectors should gravitate to the LFA and there are plenty of these stock option rich folks already available. I think the problem short term is that stuff like the new Hybrid NSX may be more to their liking. But once they move up from a 911 to a super car, maybe some of them will want to add an LFA.
F: It would help if some exotic dealer (or a few) started to make a market in these cars. Marshall Goldman seems to have moved more of them than anyone outside a dealership (the Pembroke Pines dealer in FL has been the biggest player in that category). I like to use the Ferrari Dino example. This was a joke car, too small, under powered, if you look at stuff like interior switches, ***** and levers you can see how little effort was put into it. Yet somehow folks became convinced that the design was special and was the basis for their modern cars and prices soared. Compare that to the 308s that sat at $35K for a long time (though appear to be working their way up).
G: The 2000GT itself sat quietly for a few decades and then exploded. Did the LFA project help, yes I think so. That would point to a big jump in LFA prices once Akio's replacement green lights another nutso project in 20 years.
06-17-15, 08:48 PM
#4
Lexus Test Driver
That is exactly what the problem is. How LFA is so unlike these cars. While many 600+ HP to 700 HP cars are making their way into the mainstream, as those couple of McLaren MP4-12C owners on this board who traded them in for LFAs would tell you, while those cars are also extremely fast, they are not nearly as enjoyable and rewarding as the LFA to drive.
06-18-15, 08:41 AM
#5
Rookie
Thread Starter
Porsche Calls for End to Horsepower Wars
http://www.wired.com/2015/05/porsche...orsepower-war/
I agree - and evidently so does Porsche. More hp should not be the yardstick, handling and driver experience should be. The Porsche 911 GT3RS is likely to be one of the most coveted and best driving cars in the world - with barely 500hp. I owned a modified 911 Turbo S that had north of 600hp and I thought the driver experience was lacking. In my humble opinion, the LFA has a fit and finish unrivaled by any other supercar and a driver experience second to none.
I also collect watches and one thing I have learned and recommend to friends is "buy what you like" not what you think will go up in value. But I have noticed that watch manufacturers who have a large customer base (consider Rolex) that make a great watch with low production numbers - usually appreciates significantly. This sometimes take time - as S2000toIS350 to points out in this thread.
I believe the LFA - sometime in the future - will be similarly rewarded.
I agree - and evidently so does Porsche. More hp should not be the yardstick, handling and driver experience should be. The Porsche 911 GT3RS is likely to be one of the most coveted and best driving cars in the world - with barely 500hp. I owned a modified 911 Turbo S that had north of 600hp and I thought the driver experience was lacking. In my humble opinion, the LFA has a fit and finish unrivaled by any other supercar and a driver experience second to none.
I also collect watches and one thing I have learned and recommend to friends is "buy what you like" not what you think will go up in value. But I have noticed that watch manufacturers who have a large customer base (consider Rolex) that make a great watch with low production numbers - usually appreciates significantly. This sometimes take time - as S2000toIS350 to points out in this thread.
I believe the LFA - sometime in the future - will be similarly rewarded.
06-18-15, 09:50 AM
#6
Hi Contender,
I hope you have a Grand Seiko to wind up. Watches seem to have some areas of predictability for price advance; brands with massive following like Rolex, brands with provenance and manage scarcity, Patek, particularly the grand complication and there should be some room for the modern innovators like Journe.
Ok back to cars.
Some of the recent Porsche position may be about diminishing returns as they have gotten so much out of the 911 that there is little left to get plus they are in this quirky situation where they could extend performance beyonf what the 911 could do by upping the Boxster/Cayman kids. They refuse to do that because of the current positioning.
Another thing that could help the LFA would be to have them at a couple of the popular super car experiences businesses. That would make a huge difference in terms of exposure. Few folks have had any seat time in the car (I have been to three track events and the last one being the LFA driver development one where I finally got to drive a couple of them). The problem though is that these cars are overly pricey to maintain relative to other super cars ($3000 for the parts for a front brake pad job) and that will keep the LFA out of such line ups.
I hope you have a Grand Seiko to wind up. Watches seem to have some areas of predictability for price advance; brands with massive following like Rolex, brands with provenance and manage scarcity, Patek, particularly the grand complication and there should be some room for the modern innovators like Journe.
Ok back to cars.
Some of the recent Porsche position may be about diminishing returns as they have gotten so much out of the 911 that there is little left to get plus they are in this quirky situation where they could extend performance beyonf what the 911 could do by upping the Boxster/Cayman kids. They refuse to do that because of the current positioning.
Another thing that could help the LFA would be to have them at a couple of the popular super car experiences businesses. That would make a huge difference in terms of exposure. Few folks have had any seat time in the car (I have been to three track events and the last one being the LFA driver development one where I finally got to drive a couple of them). The problem though is that these cars are overly pricey to maintain relative to other super cars ($3000 for the parts for a front brake pad job) and that will keep the LFA out of such line ups.
06-20-15, 05:08 PM
#7
Lexus Test Driver
http://www.wired.com/2015/05/porsche...orsepower-war/
I agree - and evidently so does Porsche. More hp should not be the yardstick, handling and driver experience should be. The Porsche 911 GT3RS is likely to be one of the most coveted and best driving cars in the world - with barely 500hp. I owned a modified 911 Turbo S that had north of 600hp and I thought the driver experience was lacking. In my humble opinion, the LFA has a fit and finish unrivaled by any other supercar and a driver experience second to none.
I also collect watches and one thing I have learned and recommend to friends is "buy what you like" not what you think will go up in value. But I have noticed that watch manufacturers who have a large customer base (consider Rolex) that make a great watch with low production numbers - usually appreciates significantly. This sometimes take time - as S2000toIS350 to points out in this thread.
I believe the LFA - sometime in the future - will be similarly rewarded.
I agree - and evidently so does Porsche. More hp should not be the yardstick, handling and driver experience should be. The Porsche 911 GT3RS is likely to be one of the most coveted and best driving cars in the world - with barely 500hp. I owned a modified 911 Turbo S that had north of 600hp and I thought the driver experience was lacking. In my humble opinion, the LFA has a fit and finish unrivaled by any other supercar and a driver experience second to none.
I also collect watches and one thing I have learned and recommend to friends is "buy what you like" not what you think will go up in value. But I have noticed that watch manufacturers who have a large customer base (consider Rolex) that make a great watch with low production numbers - usually appreciates significantly. This sometimes take time - as S2000toIS350 to points out in this thread.
I believe the LFA - sometime in the future - will be similarly rewarded.
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06-30-15, 01:30 PM
#8
Rookie
Thread Starter
Sorry.....
The McLaren P1, the Huayra, the Koenigsegg Agera and one: 1, the LaFerrari, and the Porsche 918 all diagree with you. And so do the lap times: http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html
07-04-15, 01:35 PM
#10
Driver School Candidate
As one of the individuals who sold my Mclaren to pick up the lexus I can say the following.. It is all about the experience.. from the feeling of the steering wheel, the switch gear, and the seats, to the sound as you engage the gears and of course the sound of the engine, it's special...BUT, it is only until you drive it though that things begin to click.. you have to know the car to understand it... the sound on videos does it no justice, even standing outside it hearing it rev while impressive, is still not it... but sit inside the cabin, step on the throttle from 3,500 rpm and wow.. the sound in the cabin.. pure automotive nirvana..
Everywhere I take the car it has it's followers.. it's so rare and so special.. it was the hit of a recent supercar show in the Philadelphia area above ferrari's, porsches, bugatti, mclarens etc..
A car this special with such dedication evident in its purpose and build deserves all the accolades it gets and is sure to appreciate in the future.... that said, even if for some strange (and totally unjust) reason it didn't, for me it's still the best I have ever driven..
Long live the LFA..
Everywhere I take the car it has it's followers.. it's so rare and so special.. it was the hit of a recent supercar show in the Philadelphia area above ferrari's, porsches, bugatti, mclarens etc..
A car this special with such dedication evident in its purpose and build deserves all the accolades it gets and is sure to appreciate in the future.... that said, even if for some strange (and totally unjust) reason it didn't, for me it's still the best I have ever driven..
Long live the LFA..
07-04-15, 10:07 PM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
As one of the individuals who sold my Mclaren to pick up the lexus I can say the following.. It is all about the experience.. from the feeling of the steering wheel, the switch gear, and the seats, to the sound as you engage the gears and of course the sound of the engine, it's special...BUT, it is only until you drive it though that things begin to click.. you have to know the car to understand it... the sound on videos does it no justice, even standing outside it hearing it rev while impressive, is still not it... but sit inside the cabin, step on the throttle from 3,500 rpm and wow.. the sound in the cabin.. pure automotive nirvana..
Everywhere I take the car it has it's followers.. it's so rare and so special.. it was the hit of a recent supercar show in the Philadelphia area above ferrari's, porsches, bugatti, mclarens etc..
A car this special with such dedication evident in its purpose and build deserves all the accolades it gets and is sure to appreciate in the future.... that said, even if for some strange (and totally unjust) reason it didn't, for me it's still the best I have ever driven..
Long live the LFA..
Everywhere I take the car it has it's followers.. it's so rare and so special.. it was the hit of a recent supercar show in the Philadelphia area above ferrari's, porsches, bugatti, mclarens etc..
A car this special with such dedication evident in its purpose and build deserves all the accolades it gets and is sure to appreciate in the future.... that said, even if for some strange (and totally unjust) reason it didn't, for me it's still the best I have ever driven..
Long live the LFA..
07-06-15, 12:23 PM
#13
As one of the individuals who sold my Mclaren to pick up the lexus I can say the following.. It is all about the experience.. from the feeling of the steering wheel, the switch gear, and the seats, to the sound as you engage the gears and of course the sound of the engine, it's special...BUT, it is only until you drive it though that things begin to click.. you have to know the car to understand it... the sound on videos does it no justice, even standing outside it hearing it rev while impressive, is still not it... but sit inside the cabin, step on the throttle from 3,500 rpm and wow.. the sound in the cabin.. pure automotive nirvana..
Everywhere I take the car it has it's followers.. it's so rare and so special.. it was the hit of a recent supercar show in the Philadelphia area above ferrari's, porsches, bugatti, mclarens etc..
A car this special with such dedication evident in its purpose and build deserves all the accolades it gets and is sure to appreciate in the future.... that said, even if for some strange (and totally unjust) reason it didn't, for me it's still the best I have ever driven..
Long live the LFA..
Everywhere I take the car it has it's followers.. it's so rare and so special.. it was the hit of a recent supercar show in the Philadelphia area above ferrari's, porsches, bugatti, mclarens etc..
A car this special with such dedication evident in its purpose and build deserves all the accolades it gets and is sure to appreciate in the future.... that said, even if for some strange (and totally unjust) reason it didn't, for me it's still the best I have ever driven..
Long live the LFA..
07-14-15, 10:26 PM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
Only 351 Toyota 2000GTs were made and at the time it was considered a terrible "Halo" car for Toyota due to the high price and limited number produced. It's engine (as well as the rest of the car) was built by Yamaha and it was espoused as the favorite "Bond car" by Daniel Craig. Finally, it was reviewed by Car and Driver in 1967 as "one of the most exciting and enjoyable cars we've driven".
The comparisons are obvious - only 500 LFAs produced and also decried as a terrible Halo car for Lexus due to price and limited production. It's engine - made by Yamaha - is arguably the best 10 cyl engines ever made and the car is a favorite of Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson - also arguably a better car afficiando than Daniel Craig. The LFA has won -and continues to win - all kinds of kudos for those who take the time to understand it.
Today the 2000GTs regularly sell for a million dollars or more (original price back in 1967 was $6800 - much more than comparable Porsches at the time.
So the question is - "do you think the LFA values will come close to seeing the appreciation of the only other Japanese supercar"?
The comparisons are obvious - only 500 LFAs produced and also decried as a terrible Halo car for Lexus due to price and limited production. It's engine - made by Yamaha - is arguably the best 10 cyl engines ever made and the car is a favorite of Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson - also arguably a better car afficiando than Daniel Craig. The LFA has won -and continues to win - all kinds of kudos for those who take the time to understand it.
Today the 2000GTs regularly sell for a million dollars or more (original price back in 1967 was $6800 - much more than comparable Porsches at the time.
So the question is - "do you think the LFA values will come close to seeing the appreciation of the only other Japanese supercar"?
I still question the true value of what the LFA did for Lexus. Compared to the GT2000 which signaled the rise of Toyota in the modern world, I am not so sure Lexus as a brand is all that much better than without it.
I sometimes wish the LFA was instead a $250k-$350k super luxury 2+2 like a Bentley or a RR Wraith. That to me would of be extra special.
07-15-15, 09:20 AM
#15
This is a pretty good question. I personally don't think the LFA will be as valued as that of a GT2000 from the late 60s.
I still question the true value of what the LFA did for Lexus. Compared to the GT2000 which signaled the rise of Toyota in the modern world, I am not so sure Lexus as a brand is all that much better than without it.
I sometimes wish the LFA was instead a $250k-$350k super luxury 2+2 like a Bentley or a RR Wraith. That to me would of be extra special.
I still question the true value of what the LFA did for Lexus. Compared to the GT2000 which signaled the rise of Toyota in the modern world, I am not so sure Lexus as a brand is all that much better than without it.
I sometimes wish the LFA was instead a $250k-$350k super luxury 2+2 like a Bentley or a RR Wraith. That to me would of be extra special.
The Mac was exceptionally well built for a brand new platform, but still there were several service campaigns/recalls over the first couple of years. There have been zero on the LFA, according to my dealer. To say nothing about how it drives and sounds, which put it in a league of one.It does make me think, crikey, what else can these guys do when they put their minds to something? A little bit scary, actually, for those with a sense of history!!
At a more grass-roots level, I brought my car out to an event organized by my dealer (at their request) and the fanaticism for the LFA amongst their other customers is off the charts. You would have a very hard time convincing my dealer that the LFA was a waste of time and resources. It is still very much a halo car in their eyes and helps them engage with their customers today.
To be honest, I'm not at all concerned with whether the LFA appreciates, depreciates or stays exactly where it is. When you have it in the garage and spend time poring over the construction, you realize there are perhaps a handful of cars ever made with this level of commitment to quality and attention to detail. One certainly does not get the impression that the MSRP was too high for the end result and that is before you even press the start button on the V10 which takes engine refinement to unheard of heights. My guess is they lost a lot more money on these cars than they even admit. However, in my view a very small expense for Toyota to have a production conquest like the LFA on their resume.