Dodge Viper ACR sets new Nürburgring lap time of 7:12....
09-16-11, 10:16 AM
#46
Lexus Test Driver
No LFA ran with Bridgestone RE70 street tires (categorized "performance street tires" in tire inventories) and officially was used when Akira Iida. It is OEM on the S2000. That says everything. Nothing even remotely close to the Cup tires, which are R compound track DOT competition tires.
And yes the results are similar but not every car is built with a single goal of achieving the best numbers. LFA is a technological marvel with full luxury supercar with all the amenities and an engine derived from Toyota's F1 V10 architecture in Cologne, Germany lighter than a small 3.5 Liter V6. It still achieved a higher speed on the straight Dottinger uphill climb of 298 km/h.
The Viper on the other hand does not even come with a radio, heater, sound deadening, airconditioner or anything since it is built with one focus to put the best number down. It uses a truck V10 engine that weighs close to 600 lbs.
So these are apples to oranges.
And yes the results are similar but not every car is built with a single goal of achieving the best numbers. LFA is a technological marvel with full luxury supercar with all the amenities and an engine derived from Toyota's F1 V10 architecture in Cologne, Germany lighter than a small 3.5 Liter V6. It still achieved a higher speed on the straight Dottinger uphill climb of 298 km/h.
The Viper on the other hand does not even come with a radio, heater, sound deadening, airconditioner or anything since it is built with one focus to put the best number down. It uses a truck V10 engine that weighs close to 600 lbs.
So these are apples to oranges.
Having driven the ACR (2008 not 2010 still a Gen 4 though) many times on the track I have to say it is a great car. It comes with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups with a treadwear rating of 80 which is less grippier then a Hoosier R @ a 40 rating or a slick at a 00 rating, but better then a PS2 @ a 220 rating.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 09-16-11 at 11:56 AM.
09-16-11, 12:20 PM
#47
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No LFA ran with Bridgestone RE70 street tires (categorized "performance street tires" in tire inventories) and officially was used when Akira Iida. It is OEM on the S2000. That says everything. Nothing even remotely close to the Cup tires, which are R compound track DOT competition tires.
And yes the results are similar but not every car is built with a single goal of achieving the best numbers. LFA is a technological marvel with full luxury supercar with all the amenities and an engine derived from Toyota's F1 V10 architecture in Cologne, Germany lighter than a small 3.5 Liter V6. It still achieved a higher speed on the straight Dottinger uphill climb of 298 km/h.
The Viper on the other hand does not even come with a radio, heater, sound deadening, airconditioner or anything since it is built with one focus to put the best number down. It uses a truck V10 engine that weighs close to 600 lbs.
So these are apples to oranges.
And yes the results are similar but not every car is built with a single goal of achieving the best numbers. LFA is a technological marvel with full luxury supercar with all the amenities and an engine derived from Toyota's F1 V10 architecture in Cologne, Germany lighter than a small 3.5 Liter V6. It still achieved a higher speed on the straight Dottinger uphill climb of 298 km/h.
The Viper on the other hand does not even come with a radio, heater, sound deadening, airconditioner or anything since it is built with one focus to put the best number down. It uses a truck V10 engine that weighs close to 600 lbs.
So these are apples to oranges.
BTW the ACR is actually quite comfortable to drive on the street, think people would be surprised at how comfy it is for such a brutal track beast.
omg we're running super slick r compound ubber galaxy grip tires... do you make this up as you go along? Same Sport Cup tires come on Porsche GT3 and others.
And btw if you really want to get technical, have fun trying to respond to this regarding tires... I'm just a dumb ol' Viper owner, but I'll let one of our smarter people explain:
There is so much *****ing about the tires. The REO-70 has an equivalent tread compound to the PSC. The wear rating is 140 vs. 80 on the PSC, but it also has 9/32 of tread vs. 6/32 of tread on the PSC. This means that in order to be "Worn out," the REO would lose 7/32 of tread and the PSC 4/32. This corresponds exactly to the difference in wear rating. As wear rating is a measure of tire life measured against a 30k mile life tire, both compound and tread depth play in. If you shaved the REO-70 or just wore off the top by racing it, it would quickly approach similar territory to the PSC. People act like there are massive differences to be had. When GM went back to the ring with the new PSC for the ZR1, they shaved off less than 7 seconds going from a 220 tread tire (9/32 tread depth) to a 80 tread tire (6/32). This is a harder compound and the 2012 ZR1 had aero improvements, additional suspension tuning, lighter wheels, and improved stability control vs. the previous car. Some are saying, "If the Lexus had near slicks, it might even run sub-7." Cut me a break. The LF-A lap was phenominal, 10/10 driving with nary a mistake. It was probably the cleanest Ring lap I've seen yet from anyone. Going to a PSC might not shave off any time, and if it does, it wouldn't be enough to touch an optimal lap from a Viper with 5 years of testing at one track.
Last edited by snake1; 09-16-11 at 12:24 PM.
09-16-11, 12:44 PM
#49
Lexus Test Driver
I don't understand why it is such a big deal that Viper beat the LFA record?? I say more power to the Viper. LFA is not all about numbers. It is certainly part of the equation and Lexus achieved that by showing it got the best numbers and set a record, but that was not the highest priority unlike a club racer like SRT-10 Viper ACR.
Here are the facts:
1 - Dodge Viper engine still weighs 600 lbs. The truck engine weighed 850 lbs and Lamborghini only helped Chrysler make it lighter by replacing with aluminum parts.
2 - The Cup tires out of the box are "Competition DOT Track R compounds" with 80 tread wear while the RE70 tires are "street summer performance tires" with 140 treadwear. One can ramble all he wants about how the tires could somehow be worn and somehow made equal. The fact is that they are not supposed to be the same type of tires. PERIOD!
Track DOT competition tires Michelin Pilot Cup R compound:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ilot+Sport+Cup
Bridgestone RE70:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....=Potenza+RE070
RE-TIRE-MENT PARTY
What a difference a tire makes. Sure, our last Z06 competitor (2007) also laid down the best Laguna lap, but it was described as "the most difficult to drive" on its slightly smaller Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires. Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, with their sacrificial 80-treadwear-rating grip, tamed the beast and helped shave off nearly 6.5 seconds per lap. These are the most track-oriented tires here, followed by the Pirelli PZero Corsas, which Matt Edmonds of Tire Rack, the official tire and wheel supplier to Motor Trend, describes as "a system tire. It has a different tread pattern at each corner, with the fronts designed to evacuate water so they're more streetable [than the Sport Cups]." He adds, "Anything not wearing Cups or Corsas will go faster with them."
Second-quickest Ferrari might disagree, or does its secret lie in tire pressures? Only Ferrari sent a representative (Editor's Note: all automakers were free to send a representative if they so desired, only Ferrari took us up on it) who insisted we lower the front-tire pressure by 2.4 psi and run the rear placard pressure (27.6 psi front/29 rear). Our 458 Italia and Audi R8 GT were the only two to recommend higher front than rear pressures for normal driving (and safe understeer). Absent factory instructions from the other manufacturers, we followed Tire Rack's recommendation to uniformly add 4 psi for track work, to maximize the footprint and minimize sidewall rollover. Ideally, Edmonds recommends chalking the sidewalls, running a lap, and adjusting pressure up or down to find the lowest pressure that prevents rollover, but logistics precluded this approach. Randy Pobst complained of excessive understeer in the R8 that lower front pressure might have alleviated, but our tight schedule precluded such iteration.
Other interesting Edmonds observations: "The [Bridgestone Potenzas] are the most low-tech parts on the LFA," and "The rear tires on the Boss 302 are three years old, so they're obviously an off-the-[dusty] shelf fitment." - Frank Markus
So why sixth place? You know anything about tires? Chevrolet decided to offer R compound slicks as an option for the 2012 model year, and our Corvette came so equipped. In the Corvette's defense, the Porsche GT3 RS also came packing basically the same sticky Michelin Pilot Sport Cups.
Here are the facts:
1 - Dodge Viper engine still weighs 600 lbs. The truck engine weighed 850 lbs and Lamborghini only helped Chrysler make it lighter by replacing with aluminum parts.
2 - The Cup tires out of the box are "Competition DOT Track R compounds" with 80 tread wear while the RE70 tires are "street summer performance tires" with 140 treadwear. One can ramble all he wants about how the tires could somehow be worn and somehow made equal. The fact is that they are not supposed to be the same type of tires. PERIOD!
Track DOT competition tires Michelin Pilot Cup R compound:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ilot+Sport+Cup
Bridgestone RE70:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....=Potenza+RE070
RE-TIRE-MENT PARTY
What a difference a tire makes. Sure, our last Z06 competitor (2007) also laid down the best Laguna lap, but it was described as "the most difficult to drive" on its slightly smaller Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires. Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, with their sacrificial 80-treadwear-rating grip, tamed the beast and helped shave off nearly 6.5 seconds per lap. These are the most track-oriented tires here, followed by the Pirelli PZero Corsas, which Matt Edmonds of Tire Rack, the official tire and wheel supplier to Motor Trend, describes as "a system tire. It has a different tread pattern at each corner, with the fronts designed to evacuate water so they're more streetable [than the Sport Cups]." He adds, "Anything not wearing Cups or Corsas will go faster with them."
Second-quickest Ferrari might disagree, or does its secret lie in tire pressures? Only Ferrari sent a representative (Editor's Note: all automakers were free to send a representative if they so desired, only Ferrari took us up on it) who insisted we lower the front-tire pressure by 2.4 psi and run the rear placard pressure (27.6 psi front/29 rear). Our 458 Italia and Audi R8 GT were the only two to recommend higher front than rear pressures for normal driving (and safe understeer). Absent factory instructions from the other manufacturers, we followed Tire Rack's recommendation to uniformly add 4 psi for track work, to maximize the footprint and minimize sidewall rollover. Ideally, Edmonds recommends chalking the sidewalls, running a lap, and adjusting pressure up or down to find the lowest pressure that prevents rollover, but logistics precluded this approach. Randy Pobst complained of excessive understeer in the R8 that lower front pressure might have alleviated, but our tight schedule precluded such iteration.
Other interesting Edmonds observations: "The [Bridgestone Potenzas] are the most low-tech parts on the LFA," and "The rear tires on the Boss 302 are three years old, so they're obviously an off-the-[dusty] shelf fitment." - Frank Markus
So why sixth place? You know anything about tires? Chevrolet decided to offer R compound slicks as an option for the 2012 model year, and our Corvette came so equipped. In the Corvette's defense, the Porsche GT3 RS also came packing basically the same sticky Michelin Pilot Sport Cups.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 09-16-11 at 02:35 PM.
09-16-11, 12:46 PM
#50
Moderator: LFA, Clubhouse
I still find it incredibly amazing that people actually can feel so strongly about meaningless lap times that they feel the need to argue about pointless vehicle details in defense or in favor of a particular one. (Again, what is this thread doing in the LFA forum, anyway? I thought it got moved, but it's back.)
When people start talking about power seats, A/C, or cupholders (the LFA doesn't have any btw, so I guess the ACR wins there
) we just know how stupid the discussion is. Even the category is contrived anyway... fastest Nordschleife "production" car lap. Arguing so much over some stupid categorization someone made up - it's no better or worse than Ferrari inventing a new category for the 599XX that no one else had ever run on the Nordschleife just so it could claim a world best, or all the fanboys out there arguing until they are out of breath that the Gumbert or Radical or Donkevoort aren't really production. Seriously, who cares. (And in Ferrari's case, it totally backfired. Talk about egg on face.)
The worst part about it is how much all this pointless stuff just detracts from the aspects of cars that people should care about. Power seats, A/C, cupholders, or the best interior ever on a supercar don't make a car's lap time better or worse - it can only make the car better or worse for a certain person.
And if anyone actually buys a vehicle because it is the fastest around a racetrack or from here to Mars or between any two arbitrary points, I feel very, very sorry for them.
The bolded portion is a big reason why I decided to go ahead and buy the LFA despite not really being in a position to own any supercar. Sadly, I don't think cars as we know them will continue to exist very long into the future.
In any case, thank you for your comments and welcome to Club Lexus!
When people start talking about power seats, A/C, or cupholders (the LFA doesn't have any btw, so I guess the ACR wins there
) we just know how stupid the discussion is. Even the category is contrived anyway... fastest Nordschleife "production" car lap. Arguing so much over some stupid categorization someone made up - it's no better or worse than Ferrari inventing a new category for the 599XX that no one else had ever run on the Nordschleife just so it could claim a world best, or all the fanboys out there arguing until they are out of breath that the Gumbert or Radical or Donkevoort aren't really production. Seriously, who cares. (And in Ferrari's case, it totally backfired. Talk about egg on face.)The worst part about it is how much all this pointless stuff just detracts from the aspects of cars that people should care about. Power seats, A/C, cupholders, or the best interior ever on a supercar don't make a car's lap time better or worse - it can only make the car better or worse for a certain person.
And if anyone actually buys a vehicle because it is the fastest around a racetrack or from here to Mars or between any two arbitrary points, I feel very, very sorry for them.
Just so everybody knows there is not a single "nanny" on the ACR except antilock brakes, no traction control......nothing so they are really fun and sometimes scary to road race. Competition is healthy, it's what makes cars keep getting better. Unfortuately Federal regulations are going to make these supercars obsolete. Now we wait for the GenV to come out and it will be made by Fiat 
In any case, thank you for your comments and welcome to Club Lexus!
09-16-11, 03:25 PM
#53
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People can brag about lap times and all, but can anyone confidently pilot these cars around any track, let alone come close to what the pros have done? In other words, what's the point?
09-17-11, 09:57 AM
#54
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No LFA ran with Bridgestone RE70 street tires (categorized "performance street tires" in tire inventories) and officially was used when Akira Iida. It is OEM on the S2000. That says everything. Nothing even remotely close to the Cup tires, which are R compound track DOT competition tires.
And yes the results are similar but not every car is built with a single goal of achieving the best numbers. LFA is a technological marvel with full luxury supercar with all the amenities and an engine derived from Toyota's F1 V10 architecture in Cologne, Germany lighter than a small 3.5 Liter V6. It still achieved a higher speed on the straight Dottinger uphill climb of 298 km/h.
The Viper on the other hand does not even come with a radio, heater, sound deadening, airconditioner or anything since it is built with one focus to put the best number down. It uses a truck V10 engine that weighs close to 600 lbs.
So these are apples to oranges.
And yes the results are similar but not every car is built with a single goal of achieving the best numbers. LFA is a technological marvel with full luxury supercar with all the amenities and an engine derived from Toyota's F1 V10 architecture in Cologne, Germany lighter than a small 3.5 Liter V6. It still achieved a higher speed on the straight Dottinger uphill climb of 298 km/h.
The Viper on the other hand does not even come with a radio, heater, sound deadening, airconditioner or anything since it is built with one focus to put the best number down. It uses a truck V10 engine that weighs close to 600 lbs.
So these are apples to oranges.
If the Vipers was indeed built, as you said it, "to achieve the best numbers possible" it would not weight 3400lbs, come with heavy leather seats, AC, Radio, power windows, 600lb front mount engine, cd of 35, steel frame etc. Bottomline is its a street car that's geared toward track duty a la GT3/GT2/Scuderia etc. Its actually less so compared to the ones I mentioned as it isn't offered with a roll cage option like the Porsche's etc and certainly doesn't offer the same weight reduction levels those cars come with if I'm not mistaken.
The bottom line is that a heavy streetcar with aero bits, yester-tech, full interior, full weight and street legal rubber has repeatedly beaten the best mega dollar sports car's regardless of whether they are track or street focused. That is the facts. All the excuses you make just makes it more glaring that a car like a Viper beat a better built, high-tech machine like the LFA and other high end cars like the GT2 RS etc. Just let it go. Both are great cars in there category.
Even if Lexus runs the car again and bests the 7:12 its still beating an old, comparatively lesser built car thats out of production two years already. Its a no win situation because you got to know the gen 5 Viper is less than a year away and it will be then new vs new and I don't like the odds for the LFA or any other production car on the Ring vs the new ACR. I have always hoped Lexus would give the LFA a proper 600-650 hp. That hp with some stickier tires and you will be looking at a sub 7min Ring time for the LFA and something that would as least be right there with the best of the next gen super/hyper cars. Come on Lexus
Last edited by ZERO5RX330; 09-17-11 at 10:00 AM.
09-17-11, 10:55 AM
#55
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Here's a pic if anyone is interested of me and the ACR at the track:
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09-17-11, 11:57 AM
#57
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Sweet car socal. Nice to know that they're driven hard on the track. I bet a better percentage of ACR owners will track their cars than LFA owners. So all this benchracing talk is just for bragging rights it seems. Good to know what these cars are capable of, but pointless if no one actually tries to achieve them. That's where I was getting at.
09-17-11, 02:06 PM
#58
Lexus Champion
So what 'record' did it set? It's still 4th, or 2nd? If we include the Radical's it's 4th. If not, it's still behind the Gumbert Apollo. This is why I said its an awesome time. But a record it is not. Neither is the LFA's time. They're both awesome fast though.
09-27-11, 12:34 PM
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Video confirmation of 2010 Viper ACR Nurburgring run
Well they finally posted video confirmation of the ACR taking the LFA's record by 2.5 seconds. I hear murmurs that they are finally going to slap a set of Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on the LFA and give it a run. If so it should be a damn fast run, probably knocking the Viper out. Records are not lasting long there, good luck to the LFA, Viper will probably try again next year in the new Gen V
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4-e3uSYPpg
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4-e3uSYPpg
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