New Lexus LFA 5.3 Liter V10: Sights, rumors, sounds and discussion
01-29-14, 07:23 PM
#16
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
No I can tell very well when I am listening to the engine and when I am listening to the exhaust. I have driven and modified myself a high-revving engine that revs up to 8400 rpm for over 10 years. Trust me, I can easily tell that is exactly the engine sound.
Exhaust has nothing to do with it. Piston movement sounds as the valves open and close come from the front of the car and not the back.
The sound you hear at 0:05 - 0:10 in the AD-X is 100% engine sound and the pistons moving incredibly fast. I am a gear head and can tell it is reaching super bike engine speeds. There is not an iota of doubt there. It is supposed to be testing for the production version and not the race version (since race version is limited to 7500 rpm and 500 PS).
Yet again, my prediction came true I made over a year ago when I first looked at the video of the AD-X that it must be displacing over 5.0 Liters. That was my experience talking.
Tanahashi has currently confirmed in an interview that he is working on a new LFA. This engine has been undergoing testing with a newly developed longer wheelbase chassis (most likely for LFA 2) just like the RC-F engine and chassis underwent testing and racing with the IS-F CCS-R guise before the RC-F was revealed. As a matter of fact, that is how LFA started as it raced for 2 years before it was put into production.
Again, we can agree to disagree. It is really intended to be an LFA 2 rumour thread.
For proof, this is my own personal video and the sound you hear when I go full throttle (especially the metallic high pitched howl starting at 6000 rpm to 8400 rpm) is all coming from the engine bay and is intake/piston movement sound (I have owned this car for 10 years)
Exhaust has nothing to do with it. Piston movement sounds as the valves open and close come from the front of the car and not the back.
The sound you hear at 0:05 - 0:10 in the AD-X is 100% engine sound and the pistons moving incredibly fast. I am a gear head and can tell it is reaching super bike engine speeds. There is not an iota of doubt there. It is supposed to be testing for the production version and not the race version (since race version is limited to 7500 rpm and 500 PS).
Yet again, my prediction came true I made over a year ago when I first looked at the video of the AD-X that it must be displacing over 5.0 Liters. That was my experience talking.
Tanahashi has currently confirmed in an interview that he is working on a new LFA. This engine has been undergoing testing with a newly developed longer wheelbase chassis (most likely for LFA 2) just like the RC-F engine and chassis underwent testing and racing with the IS-F CCS-R guise before the RC-F was revealed. As a matter of fact, that is how LFA started as it raced for 2 years before it was put into production.
Again, we can agree to disagree. It is really intended to be an LFA 2 rumour thread.
For proof, this is my own personal video and the sound you hear when I go full throttle (especially the metallic high pitched howl starting at 6000 rpm to 8400 rpm) is all coming from the engine bay and is intake/piston movement sound (I have owned this car for 10 years)
Im not picking on you, but imo your theory holds no weight. From the press release of the LFA running the 5.3 liter engine at the N24 this year, they explain it was made for the race. The engine was made to do the N24, not for a blue AD-X LFA with a different bodykit and exhaust. The sound you hear is not because its a different engine. They dont need a larger engine to increase revs. Just the opposite in fact; to make more power with equal or reduced revs. Theres nothing to back up that theory except youtube videos. But according to Toyota, the larger engine was made for a specific race this year.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 01-29-14 at 07:58 PM.
02-01-14, 02:50 PM
#17
Lexus Champion
Ok, just go with your theory thats fine. Im sure Toyota would not need larger engine volume to make more revs. In the LFA's history, you should be well aware that it can rev past 10k without much work. Iirc the 9500rpm is 'conservative' for reliability purposes. So you should think, maybe the sound you claim is from the engine revving higher than the regular LFA is not a larger engine, but a less restricted engine. Just like with the TS040 this year, the rumors are a bigger (vs. 3.4liter) V8 with reduced revs to make equal power without as much stress from the higher revving engine and saves fuel. It also produces more torque which is better for acceleration. The 5.3 liter engine was designed in the same line of thought. I have nothing else to say on it. No reason to argue about it if Toyota's own press release states its purpose. I dont think we will ever know if the AD cars were using this larger engine.
02-01-14, 07:42 PM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
True, that the 4.8 Liter V10 can rev past 10,000 rpm without any issues. But then again, depends on how much power Lexus is targetting.
The 5.3 Liter V10 can give more torque all across the rev range with the increased displacement and more importantly with the increased revs Lexus potentially might be targetting a lot more horsepower for the LFA 2 not possible with the 4.8 Liter V10 (even 130 HP/Liter is 620 HP). Stretching the torque curve to higher revs (10,000+ rpm) automatically yields a lot more horsepower.
p.s. I am 100% convinced the AD-X was using the 5.3 Liter V10. Although, the purpose will become clear as time goes by. It is clear Tanahashi's primary project is engineering a new LFA, which is the only place where that fits in.
The 5.3 Liter V10 can give more torque all across the rev range with the increased displacement and more importantly with the increased revs Lexus potentially might be targetting a lot more horsepower for the LFA 2 not possible with the 4.8 Liter V10 (even 130 HP/Liter is 620 HP). Stretching the torque curve to higher revs (10,000+ rpm) automatically yields a lot more horsepower.
p.s. I am 100% convinced the AD-X was using the 5.3 Liter V10. Although, the purpose will become clear as time goes by. It is clear Tanahashi's primary project is engineering a new LFA, which is the only place where that fits in.
Ok, just go with your theory thats fine. Im sure Toyota would not need larger engine volume to make more revs. In the LFA's history, you should be well aware that it can rev past 10k without much work. Iirc the 9500rpm is 'conservative' for reliability purposes. So you should think, maybe the sound you claim is from the engine revving higher than the regular LFA is not a larger engine, but a less restricted engine. Just like with the TS040 this year, the rumors are a bigger (vs. 3.4liter) V8 with reduced revs to make equal power without as much stress from the higher revving engine and saves fuel. It also produces more torque which is better for acceleration. The 5.3 liter engine was designed in the same line of thought. I have nothing else to say on it. No reason to argue about it if Toyota's own press release states its purpose. I dont think we will ever know if the AD cars were using this larger engine.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-01-14 at 09:51 PM.
02-03-14, 05:10 PM
#19
I dont think you get it. Toyota has all the know how to do things like this to their engine. They dont need a guy from Yamaha. They used Yamaha for the engine, great. But making the engine different is nothing out of their own profession. I dont know where you get 12,500rpm from either. Nothing Toyota said has mentioned anything about increased revs. Itd make no sense to go that high anyway. It only burns more fuel, the opposite of whats needed in a 24hr race. Same with the GTE LFA. The sound difference can be attributed to a different exhaust.
02-03-14, 08:53 PM
#20
Lexus Champion
And 13% of Fuji Heavy, Subaru's parent company. I know this, but Toyota doesn't need help to make an engine rev higher. Yamaha may have experience with high revving bike engines, but Toyota has experience with high revving engines as well; Formula1, Formula Nippon, Indycar/Cart, LeMans, SuperGT etc. I don't think Toyota will go higher revving for an "LFA 2". I bet its a larger displacement engine coupled with a hybrid capacitor like their lmp1.
02-03-14, 10:16 PM
#21
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
And 13% of Fuji Heavy, Subaru's parent company. I know this, but Toyota doesn't need help to make an engine rev higher. Yamaha may have experience with high revving bike engines, but Toyota has experience with high revving engines as well; Formula1, Formula Nippon, Indycar/Cart, LeMans, SuperGT etc. I don't think Toyota will go higher revving for an "LFA 2". I bet its a larger displacement engine coupled with a hybrid capacitor like their lmp1.
The only production high-revving engines Toyota made, had heavy involvement from Yamaha (2ZZ-GE, BEAMS 3S-GE and the 1LR are the three primary production engines that were 8000+ rpm and all have Yamaha stamped on them). Yamaha provides their expertise to Lexus/Toyota in designing and building durable and reliable high-revving engines.
Lexus can make great engines all by itself. It only needs Yamaha for the high-revving architecture. Factually, that is where Lexus/Toyota involves Yamaha as a co-developer.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-04-14 at 08:25 AM.
02-05-14, 10:13 PM
#22
Lexus Champion
You discredit Toyota too much. Their LeMans engines go 24 hours straight revving to and past 10k. Yamaha is a part of Toyota anyway, so Yamaha people are Toyota people. Same as Denso, Aisin, Akebono etc. All affiliated, partially Toyota owned. As for engine rebuilds, in F1, they had no engine failures in 2009. That year they had to use single engines for 3 race weekends. The high revving engines aren't needed for most road cars anyway. Theres not a reason to make 9k rpm in a street car. This has nothing to do with what Toyota did with this engine anyway.
Last edited by TF109B; 02-05-14 at 10:17 PM.
02-06-14, 06:56 AM
#23
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Sorry, that makes no sense. Lexus would have no reason to involve Yamaha as co-developer using your logic. Toyota builds low-revving performance/non-performance/FI engines all by itself and Yamaha really offers nothing special there. Why would Lexus/Toyota need Yamaha? I am only giving credit where it is due. It is just that Toyota knows how to leverage Yamaha exactly where it can provide the most value.
I drive a Yamaha-built Toyota engine every single day and what separates it from any other 4 cylinder engine Toyota ever produced, is that it is a high-revving engine. I have the original SAE paper for its development and the chief engineer acknowledged Yamaha's design, development efforts for the engine.
p.s. Like I stated before, production high-revving engines are completely different from race high-revving engines because they are rebuilt after every or every second race.It is not about failures. It is just regular maintenance of race engines. Yamaha has decades of experience of designing durable, reliability high-revving engines that rev 15,000+ rpm every day with the lowest possible internal friction, heat and mass. As a matter of fact, that is the only type of engines they build for production. That is where their expertise is.
I drive a Yamaha-built Toyota engine every single day and what separates it from any other 4 cylinder engine Toyota ever produced, is that it is a high-revving engine. I have the original SAE paper for its development and the chief engineer acknowledged Yamaha's design, development efforts for the engine.
p.s. Like I stated before, production high-revving engines are completely different from race high-revving engines because they are rebuilt after every or every second race.It is not about failures. It is just regular maintenance of race engines. Yamaha has decades of experience of designing durable, reliability high-revving engines that rev 15,000+ rpm every day with the lowest possible internal friction, heat and mass. As a matter of fact, that is the only type of engines they build for production. That is where their expertise is.
You discredit Toyota too much. Their LeMans engines go 24 hours straight revving to and past 10k. Yamaha is a part of Toyota anyway, so Yamaha people are Toyota people. Same as Denso, Aisin, Akebono etc. All affiliated, partially Toyota owned. As for engine rebuilds, in F1, they had no engine failures in 2009. That year they had to use single engines for 3 race weekends. The high revving engines aren't needed for most road cars anyway. Theres not a reason to make 9k rpm in a street car. This has nothing to do with what Toyota did with this engine anyway.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-06-14 at 10:41 AM.
02-06-14, 04:38 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
It makes no sense to produce engines that dont rev to 9k rpm in most street cars? You must have gotten lost reading my comment. You brag about Yamaha's expertise and say Toyota can't do a high rpm engine, but then said before youre sure they can. So which one is it? Your theory is off imo. I agree its possible the "AD" cars could have revved higher, I dont see why they would increase the engine volume to do so. And I dont see why theyd involve Yamaha for a race car engine if what you say is right, that they are 'revving to 12k' or whatever, when it was already said the LFA could naturally rev higher than it does now. Do you have anything that backs up that claim? I see people on lexusenthusiast saying it but that doesnt make it fact.
02-06-14, 05:53 PM
#25
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
So the moral of the story is, since you did not answer my question, Yamaha is just a sitting duck in the development and gets credit really for doing nothing using your theory. I know you really want to believe Toyota/Lexus does everything by itself, but that is simply not true.
There is no value Yamaha brings using your theory since neither Toyota needs Yamaha for low-revving performance engines nor for high-revving. If Toyota/Lexus could do it all by itself, why would Toyota need Yamaha at all?
Yet again, I drive a Yamaha-built Toyota engine and what really separates 2ZZ-GE from other 4 cylinder engines is that it is a high-revving engine and it has Yamaha written all over it. Samething goes with BEAMS Yamaha-built 3S-GE vs the standard Toyota 3S-GE. Why did Toyota hand over the 3S-GE to Yamaha to update the engine? Bingo! To increase the redline from 6800 rpm of the standard 3S-GE to 8100 rpm and rework all of the internals, which was in turn called BEAMS 3S-GE.
Although, you may not realize it, but Yamaha also had a huge role in design and development of Toyota's F1 V10 engines. As a matter of fact, that was the official reason recited for Toyota purchasing stake in Yamaha in the year 2000 ("Toyota wishes to enter F1 and intends to form an alliance with Yamaha to develop the engines").
There is just way too much factual evidence here. Lexus/Toyota uses Yamaha for its high-revving engine development expertise and there is absolutely ZERO other rational explanation. Case closed.
There is no value Yamaha brings using your theory since neither Toyota needs Yamaha for low-revving performance engines nor for high-revving. If Toyota/Lexus could do it all by itself, why would Toyota need Yamaha at all?
Yet again, I drive a Yamaha-built Toyota engine and what really separates 2ZZ-GE from other 4 cylinder engines is that it is a high-revving engine and it has Yamaha written all over it. Samething goes with BEAMS Yamaha-built 3S-GE vs the standard Toyota 3S-GE. Why did Toyota hand over the 3S-GE to Yamaha to update the engine? Bingo! To increase the redline from 6800 rpm of the standard 3S-GE to 8100 rpm and rework all of the internals, which was in turn called BEAMS 3S-GE.
Although, you may not realize it, but Yamaha also had a huge role in design and development of Toyota's F1 V10 engines. As a matter of fact, that was the official reason recited for Toyota purchasing stake in Yamaha in the year 2000 ("Toyota wishes to enter F1 and intends to form an alliance with Yamaha to develop the engines").
There is just way too much factual evidence here. Lexus/Toyota uses Yamaha for its high-revving engine development expertise and there is absolutely ZERO other rational explanation. Case closed.
It makes no sense to produce engines that dont rev to 9k rpm in most street cars? You must have gotten lost reading my comment. You brag about Yamaha's expertise and say Toyota can't do a high rpm engine, but then said before youre sure they can. So which one is it? Your theory is off imo. I agree its possible the "AD" cars could have revved higher, I dont see why they would increase the engine volume to do so. And I dont see why theyd involve Yamaha for a race car engine if what you say is right, that they are 'revving to 12k' or whatever, when it was already said the LFA could naturally rev higher than it does now. Do you have anything that backs up that claim? I see people on lexusenthusiast saying it but that doesnt make it fact.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-06-14 at 06:12 PM.
02-06-14, 06:57 PM
#26
Lexus Champion
Youre reaching again. This time youre assuming things and misinterpreting what I said. Show me proof the car revs to 12k or whatever you claim. Your questions are irrelevant to the conversation. I dont claim yamaha is useless or anything outlandish you just made up. I said the theory these cars are running the 5.3 liter engine but revving higher is flawed because its counterproductive and not confirmed. What is confirmed is that Toyota said they enlarged the engine for the Nurburgring 24hr race to suit the track. Nothing about it ran in prototype LFA's, or revs to some godly speed. You seem to be taking offense to this. All I said was it doesnt make sense. A little history lesson, Yamaha was last involved in F1 in 1996, they never won a race. They had no involvement with Toyotas F1 foray. TMG was specifically built to handle that. And the partnership goes back to the 60's between the two, its in no way recent.
Last edited by TF109B; 02-06-14 at 07:06 PM.
02-06-14, 08:41 PM
#27
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
I have killed enough brain cells in my head. The fact that you have no idea about how the engines Yamaha contributed and how integral part of the F1 program Yamaha was, completely is astonishing. 2ZZ-GE, BEAMS 3S-GE, Toyota F1 (Toyota officially cited buying stake in Yamaha to make Yamaha a partner in the F1 V10 engine development). You argue on solid well known facts, which is laughable and ridiculous. Should I believe what the Toyota execs/president said or you?
Just because an engine was built in a particular factory/foundry, never means it was designed and developed at the same location.
And for the millionth time, nowhere did I claim it was a fact that the engine will rev up to 12,000 rpm. There is clearly rumors written in the title and also the first post for anyone who can listen to an engine and understand how high it is revving would see there is strong substance to this rumor.
I have posted the video proof in the first post for anyone who could really understand the difference in the engine speed sound and if you don't like then it is what it is. I am completely fine with the disagreement. I am done arguing and killing brain cells.
No involvement? Yeah right!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/8762
Toyota is to buy a five per-cent stake in Yamaha to help boost its Formula 1 programme, it was announced on Monday.
Toyota president Fujio Cho said his company, which plans to enter F1 in 2002, would buy a stake worth 10.5billion Japanese yen.
In return, Yahama Corporation and Yamaha Motors would each buy 500,000 shares in Toyota from the market.
Cho said: "We believe this tie-up will become one of the foundation stones that will help us win out over competitors.
"Yamaha Motor is a company with strong technical prowess, with experience in F1 racing and marine products and we want to strengthen our ties with the firm."
As part of the deal, Toyota will be hoping to tap into Yamaha's eight years of F1 experience.
The company, more famous for its motorbike production, supplied engines for Arrows in 1997.
Just because an engine was built in a particular factory/foundry, never means it was designed and developed at the same location.
And for the millionth time, nowhere did I claim it was a fact that the engine will rev up to 12,000 rpm. There is clearly rumors written in the title and also the first post for anyone who can listen to an engine and understand how high it is revving would see there is strong substance to this rumor.
I have posted the video proof in the first post for anyone who could really understand the difference in the engine speed sound and if you don't like then it is what it is. I am completely fine with the disagreement. I am done arguing and killing brain cells.
No involvement? Yeah right!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/8762
Toyota is to buy a five per-cent stake in Yamaha to help boost its Formula 1 programme, it was announced on Monday.
Toyota president Fujio Cho said his company, which plans to enter F1 in 2002, would buy a stake worth 10.5billion Japanese yen.
In return, Yahama Corporation and Yamaha Motors would each buy 500,000 shares in Toyota from the market.
Cho said: "We believe this tie-up will become one of the foundation stones that will help us win out over competitors.
"Yamaha Motor is a company with strong technical prowess, with experience in F1 racing and marine products and we want to strengthen our ties with the firm."
As part of the deal, Toyota will be hoping to tap into Yamaha's eight years of F1 experience.
The company, more famous for its motorbike production, supplied engines for Arrows in 1997.
Youre reaching again. This time youre assuming things and misinterpreting what I said. Show me proof the car revs to 12k or whatever you claim. Your questions are irrelevant to the conversation. I dont claim yamaha is useless or anything outlandish you just made up. I said the theory these cars are running the 5.3 liter engine but revving higher is flawed because its counterproductive and not confirmed. What is confirmed is that Toyota said they enlarged the engine for the Nurburgring 24hr race to suit the track. Nothing about it ran in prototype LFA's, or revs to some godly speed. You seem to be taking offense to this. All I said was it doesnt make sense. A little history lesson, Yamaha was last involved in F1 in 1996, they never won a race. They had no involvement with Toyotas F1 foray. TMG was specifically built to handle that. And the partnership goes back to the 60's between the two, its in no way recent.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-08-14 at 10:40 AM.
02-07-14, 01:40 AM
#28
Moderator: LFA, Clubhouse
Folks, I don't think there is any need for the aggressive tone that this thread has taken in the last few posts, especially when the discussion just concerns rumors and a purely semantic debate about what "involvement" means.
02-08-14, 12:02 AM
#29
Lexus Champion
Crash.net has the same story. Looks like lots of PR speak to big up Yamaha. Their engines were not very competitve in F1. And Arrows was the last team to use Yamaha in F1 then dropped them in 1996. Toyota wanted to buy into the company for a youthful look to their brand and some technical know how in the marine and motorcycle department. Yamaha was the beneficiary, Toyota's deep pockets kept them relevant and alive. So as you see, Yamaha's people are Toyota's people. Im sure you know TTE which became TMG. Toyota Team Europe ran the Rally program into the 90's and became TMG who ran the TS020 at LeMans in 1998-1999, which was a basis for F1. Even before Yamaha was brought in to 'help', TTE/TMG already had F1 in sights and the TMG facilities in Cologne, Germany were being modeled for such. Imo, TMG is responsible for most of these operations. Its located very near to the Nurburgring, and has the capability to make their own cars if need be. Gazoo racing is a part of this Toyota family. So all the activities you see going on, its all under Toyota, no matter who we argue helped. Its even be argued that Toyota's help in purchasing a large stake in Yamaha motor has helped them regain their front running status in MotoGP.
02-08-14, 10:48 AM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Toyota is not stupid. They made the decision after due diligence and seeing the potential of this F1 deal with Yamaha. Cho said clearly the wealth of F1 experience Yamaha has, is the biggest determining factor for that deal. To quote verbatim what Toyota president Fujio cho said:
[Toyota president Fujio] Cho said: "We believe this tie-up will become one of the foundation stones that will help us win out over competitors.
"Yamaha Motor is a company with strong technical prowess, with experience in F1 racing and marine products and we want to strengthen our ties with the firm."
Besides, Yamaha did only fraction of the work. which is building engines and never had its own F1 team and gets a bad rap for no other reason because an incompetent Arrows team was using their engines. That is what Toyota saw in Yamaha. They only built engines. Yamaha could have built the best engine in the world, but that is only a fraction of winning the race is about. I have no doubt Yamaha built some of the best F1 engines. The engines are all built using the same regulation of power and restrictions in order to put them all on level playing field.
However, it is much more about the chassis, the competitive standing of the driver, the tires, the pit crew, aerodynamics, the transmission, the R&D funding for suspension development. Arrow was never a competitive team in any of those areas. Their placings were always poor with or without Yamaha. Yamaha was supplying them with some of the best engines, but Arrow was never able to capitalize on it because they were so sloppy in many other areas.
F1 racing depends far more on these other factors than the engine.
[Toyota president Fujio] Cho said: "We believe this tie-up will become one of the foundation stones that will help us win out over competitors.
"Yamaha Motor is a company with strong technical prowess, with experience in F1 racing and marine products and we want to strengthen our ties with the firm."
However, it is much more about the chassis, the competitive standing of the driver, the tires, the pit crew, aerodynamics, the transmission, the R&D funding for suspension development. Arrow was never a competitive team in any of those areas. Their placings were always poor with or without Yamaha. Yamaha was supplying them with some of the best engines, but Arrow was never able to capitalize on it because they were so sloppy in many other areas.
F1 racing depends far more on these other factors than the engine.
Crash.net has the same story. Looks like lots of PR speak to big up Yamaha. Their engines were not very competitve in F1. And Arrows was the last team to use Yamaha in F1 then dropped them in 1996. Toyota wanted to buy into the company for a youthful look to their brand and some technical know how in the marine and motorcycle department. Yamaha was the beneficiary, Toyota's deep pockets kept them relevant and alive. So as you see, Yamaha's people are Toyota's people. Im sure you know TTE which became TMG. Toyota Team Europe ran the Rally program into the 90's and became TMG who ran the TS020 at LeMans in 1998-1999, which was a basis for F1. Even before Yamaha was brought in to 'help', TTE/TMG already had F1 in sights and the TMG facilities in Cologne, Germany were being modeled for such. Imo, TMG is responsible for most of these operations. Its located very near to the Nurburgring, and has the capability to make their own cars if need be. Gazoo racing is a part of this Toyota family. So all the activities you see going on, its all under Toyota, no matter who we argue helped. Its even be argued that Toyota's help in purchasing a large stake in Yamaha motor has helped them regain their front running status in MotoGP.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-08-14 at 01:39 PM.