Lexus LFA & Acura NSX – Two Decades of Engineering Excellence
02-07-13, 10:27 AM
#17
thanks everyone! so phil, when are we reviewing yours? 
thank you so much jonathan. it's very true and i believe that most hp is really more of a bragging right than a meaningful measure. that's how i look at veyron, for example. it's crazy engineering, it's stupidly fast, and it does breaks record. but how is it as a car overall? especially as a driver's car, which is what i care more about as an enthusiast
i understand what you are trying to say, but i can also say that's where even video doesn't show you what it is about. i have watched a lot of lfa videos and the shifting, but in person it feels quite different. and in sports mode and shift speed all the way up, from the time you flip the the pedal to the tranny engaging throwing you forward, there is that lag.
by comparison, i have driven the SV as well, and from a feeling point of view, that car feels faster. i haven't driven the aventador, but people say it shifts even faster.
it is completely a driving feel. with all the other driving dynamics flowing smoothy together, tranny is simply an area that can improve.
fwiw, in normal mode and down shifting, the tranny works beautifully.
mike, when you get the lfa, please let me know and take me out for a ride 
it's very true, i just feel way too often all these discussions are based on paper spec and numbers, and they really don't take 10% of what the lfa is about.
it's interesting, but the more i think about the lfa, the closer it is with the nsx. a lot of people try to defend its status, and others come and try to deny its value. it's pretty much the same as nsx. but you know what? over the years it has proven otherwise. nsx performance has been up there and it's undeniable (in fact more apparent over the years), and talk about value it is worth more than equivalent ferraris.
lfa is such a car. you appreciate more when you are in the driver seat.
Excellent write up rominl!
Both the NSX and the LFA represented the pinnacle of the Japanese car industry at the time of their introduction. Both cars shared similar design philosophies and showcased technologies unrivaled by their contemporaries.
It's hard to imagine but with the NSX and the LFA, Honda and Toyota essentially proved that an exotic car does not need to have the most hp, the quickest track time, or the fastest acceleration/top speed.
Jon
Both the NSX and the LFA represented the pinnacle of the Japanese car industry at the time of their introduction. Both cars shared similar design philosophies and showcased technologies unrivaled by their contemporaries.
It's hard to imagine but with the NSX and the LFA, Honda and Toyota essentially proved that an exotic car does not need to have the most hp, the quickest track time, or the fastest acceleration/top speed.
Jon
Great write up and pics 
One minor quibble, as usual is regarding the 200 ms shift time.
No argument that LFA's single-clutch transmission gives up shift speed compared dual-clutch transmission for more experience, compactness, lightweight and direct feel. Completely agree with you there.
In comparison of single-clutch transmissions, the 200 ms tells almost nothing as there are no industry standard method of measuring transmission speed and every manufacturer measures it differently ( is it from time the paddle is pulled to the time car resumes acceleration?? is it from the time the clutch is disengaged to the time clutch is engaged? etc.) Some cars from 15 years ago with first generation single clutch transmissions that were advertised to be 100 ms, but no way they were anywhere close to the quickness of that of the LFA transmission. It is just that the testing methodology is not normalized.
BMW for example, admitted that they were measuring the SMG's shift times based on only clutch engagement/disengagement actuation (the only time net acceleration stops). Not from the time the paddle was pulled. Big difference.
The only real world proof is actually verification GPS VBOX/accelerometer/dynonameter where it clearly shows how long acceleration pauses for in real life. A slow transmission will show a long pause in VBOX/GPS accelerometer tests.
As obvious from this video, LFA's acceleration barely pauses during shifts (look at the speedo when the LFA shifts. you see the speedometer keeps climbing without noticeable pauses) meaning it shifts deceptively fast by single clutch transmission standards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZyN...skuIcxGpE-0_Bg
One minor quibble, as usual is regarding the 200 ms shift time.
No argument that LFA's single-clutch transmission gives up shift speed compared dual-clutch transmission for more experience, compactness, lightweight and direct feel. Completely agree with you there.
In comparison of single-clutch transmissions, the 200 ms tells almost nothing as there are no industry standard method of measuring transmission speed and every manufacturer measures it differently ( is it from time the paddle is pulled to the time car resumes acceleration?? is it from the time the clutch is disengaged to the time clutch is engaged? etc.) Some cars from 15 years ago with first generation single clutch transmissions that were advertised to be 100 ms, but no way they were anywhere close to the quickness of that of the LFA transmission. It is just that the testing methodology is not normalized.
BMW for example, admitted that they were measuring the SMG's shift times based on only clutch engagement/disengagement actuation (the only time net acceleration stops). Not from the time the paddle was pulled. Big difference.
The only real world proof is actually verification GPS VBOX/accelerometer/dynonameter where it clearly shows how long acceleration pauses for in real life. A slow transmission will show a long pause in VBOX/GPS accelerometer tests.
As obvious from this video, LFA's acceleration barely pauses during shifts (look at the speedo when the LFA shifts. you see the speedometer keeps climbing without noticeable pauses) meaning it shifts deceptively fast by single clutch transmission standards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZyN...skuIcxGpE-0_Bg
by comparison, i have driven the SV as well, and from a feeling point of view, that car feels faster. i haven't driven the aventador, but people say it shifts even faster.
it is completely a driving feel. with all the other driving dynamics flowing smoothy together, tranny is simply an area that can improve.
fwiw, in normal mode and down shifting, the tranny works beautifully.
Excellent review Henry! I am envious of your time with the LFA! I've heard it on the road, and it sounds amazing.
Although two decades separate these two cars, I think the parallels that you draw are noteworthy; the driving experience of both cars cannot be quantified by numbers on paper. Both cars represent the pinnacle of technology for each era, and both were created out of automotive passion, bean counters be damned!
I feel fortunate to be a part of the NSX community, and I hope one day I will own an LFA as well.
Although two decades separate these two cars, I think the parallels that you draw are noteworthy; the driving experience of both cars cannot be quantified by numbers on paper. Both cars represent the pinnacle of technology for each era, and both were created out of automotive passion, bean counters be damned!
I feel fortunate to be a part of the NSX community, and I hope one day I will own an LFA as well.
it's very true, i just feel way too often all these discussions are based on paper spec and numbers, and they really don't take 10% of what the lfa is about.
it's interesting, but the more i think about the lfa, the closer it is with the nsx. a lot of people try to defend its status, and others come and try to deny its value. it's pretty much the same as nsx. but you know what? over the years it has proven otherwise. nsx performance has been up there and it's undeniable (in fact more apparent over the years), and talk about value it is worth more than equivalent ferraris.
lfa is such a car. you appreciate more when you are in the driver seat.
02-07-13, 02:49 PM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
Yeah, my argument was mostly about the 200 ms being pointless since the numbers are incomparable.
Feel wise, I agree with what you said as it would be subjective as to whether someone likes having the head thrown forward and then suddenly pushed back. However, all racing cars use single clutch manual transmissions with a similar jolt, which is what Lexus seemed to be targetting.
Speaking of the Aventador's ISR, the throw forward/back jerk is intolerable from what everyone has been saying. It is borderline being deemed "violent". Chris Harris called it "back breaking".
Correct me, if I am wrong, but LFA is far more tame by comparison.
Motor Trend:
"But…Aventador's single-clutch automated manual transmission is a joke. In Strada (street) mode, the shifts are slower than a wet weekend in Cleveland; in Corsa (race) mode, they’re like a hit across the back of the head with a shovel; and Sport, the setting in between, isn’t much good, either. It doesn’t matter whether you’re going slow or fast, trying to work with the Aventador’s tranny is an exercise in teeth-grinding frustration. Next to Porsche’s PDK and the new dual-clutch transmissions from Ferrari, it’s hopelessly outclassed."
Autocar:
"Lamborghini says it wants to retain the 'most emotional' possible shifts. Curious. I've felt a number of emotions when changing gear in the Aventador, but to date 'satisfied' has yet to be one of them. The gearbox calibration is no better than poor at times, too sluggish and jerky."
Tiff Needell:
"Despite this gearchange system apparently having some similarities with a Bugatti Veyron, it's nothing like as smooth. A Veyron changes gear on full throttle without even your hair twitching. This cracks your neck. I think Lamborghini said they want to create the world's most emotional gearchange. The only emotion I'm getting is a stiff neck."
i understand what you are trying to say, but i can also say that's where even video doesn't show you what it is about. i have watched a lot of lfa videos and the shifting, but in person it feels quite different. and in sports mode and shift speed all the way up, from the time you flip the the pedal to the tranny engaging throwing you forward, there is that lag.
by comparison, i have driven the SV as well, and from a feeling point of view, that car feels faster. i haven't driven the aventador, but people say it shifts even faster.
Feel wise, I agree with what you said as it would be subjective as to whether someone likes having the head thrown forward and then suddenly pushed back. However, all racing cars use single clutch manual transmissions with a similar jolt, which is what Lexus seemed to be targetting.
Speaking of the Aventador's ISR, the throw forward/back jerk is intolerable from what everyone has been saying. It is borderline being deemed "violent". Chris Harris called it "back breaking".
Correct me, if I am wrong, but LFA is far more tame by comparison.
Motor Trend:
"But…Aventador's single-clutch automated manual transmission is a joke. In Strada (street) mode, the shifts are slower than a wet weekend in Cleveland; in Corsa (race) mode, they’re like a hit across the back of the head with a shovel; and Sport, the setting in between, isn’t much good, either. It doesn’t matter whether you’re going slow or fast, trying to work with the Aventador’s tranny is an exercise in teeth-grinding frustration. Next to Porsche’s PDK and the new dual-clutch transmissions from Ferrari, it’s hopelessly outclassed."
Autocar:
"Lamborghini says it wants to retain the 'most emotional' possible shifts. Curious. I've felt a number of emotions when changing gear in the Aventador, but to date 'satisfied' has yet to be one of them. The gearbox calibration is no better than poor at times, too sluggish and jerky."
Tiff Needell:
"Despite this gearchange system apparently having some similarities with a Bugatti Veyron, it's nothing like as smooth. A Veyron changes gear on full throttle without even your hair twitching. This cracks your neck. I think Lamborghini said they want to create the world's most emotional gearchange. The only emotion I'm getting is a stiff neck."
i understand what you are trying to say, but i can also say that's where even video doesn't show you what it is about. i have watched a lot of lfa videos and the shifting, but in person it feels quite different. and in sports mode and shift speed all the way up, from the time you flip the the pedal to the tranny engaging throwing you forward, there is that lag.
by comparison, i have driven the SV as well, and from a feeling point of view, that car feels faster. i haven't driven the aventador, but people say it shifts even faster.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-07-13 at 04:47 PM.
02-07-13, 03:00 PM
#19
yup, violent is the word i get from people who have driven the aventador. it's nothing short of brutal. i know only one person who has driven both the lfa and aventador, and yes, he said by comparison the lfa is nothing
i didn't mean to use 200ms as comparison, just stating the spec (that's why you didn't see my quoting numbers from other cars). the main reason behind that paragraph was really to address the countless posts and discussions i have seen regarding the transmission. i just don't think it's something both sides would ever agree on and it's actually kind of pointless because both have their pros and cons. i actually don't mind the choking feel, it feels more engaging.
and most importantly, i think what is important is actually what i mentioned in the following paragraph about adjustments, which makes the car so enjoyable on normal drives. how many owners would flip the switches to sports and highest shift speed all the time? i doubt
i didn't mean to use 200ms as comparison, just stating the spec (that's why you didn't see my quoting numbers from other cars). the main reason behind that paragraph was really to address the countless posts and discussions i have seen regarding the transmission. i just don't think it's something both sides would ever agree on and it's actually kind of pointless because both have their pros and cons. i actually don't mind the choking feel, it feels more engaging.
and most importantly, i think what is important is actually what i mentioned in the following paragraph about adjustments, which makes the car so enjoyable on normal drives. how many owners would flip the switches to sports and highest shift speed all the time? i doubt
02-22-13, 11:37 PM
#26
Lexus Test Driver
How many miles do you have on your NSX???
BTW, Honda did make the Ferrari 348 as the benchmark for the NSX and also marketed it initially as better performing car compared to the Ferrari 348 while also being much more reliable and easy to daily drive.
Although, 348 was near its end of the life cycle and then Ferrari brought out the 355 shortly after NSX was launched. The case in point, Honda was actually keeping numbers at the time as part of the development of the NSX.
Also, a funny thing I saw on SupraForums where most Supra fanbois were arguing that a 1993 Supra could destroy the NSX around the race track, which was laughable to be honest. Yes, the Supra was quicker in a straight line, but that is where it ended. The NSX was better in just about every other measurable way.
I think this video should be quite interesting for you to watch
BTW, Honda did make the Ferrari 348 as the benchmark for the NSX and also marketed it initially as better performing car compared to the Ferrari 348 while also being much more reliable and easy to daily drive.
Although, 348 was near its end of the life cycle and then Ferrari brought out the 355 shortly after NSX was launched. The case in point, Honda was actually keeping numbers at the time as part of the development of the NSX.
Also, a funny thing I saw on SupraForums where most Supra fanbois were arguing that a 1993 Supra could destroy the NSX around the race track, which was laughable to be honest. Yes, the Supra was quicker in a straight line, but that is where it ended. The NSX was better in just about every other measurable way.
I think this video should be quite interesting for you to watch
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-23-13 at 12:35 AM.
02-23-13, 01:36 AM
#27
How many miles do you have on your NSX???
BTW, Honda did make the Ferrari 348 as the benchmark for the NSX and also marketed it initially as better performing car compared to the Ferrari 348 while also being much more reliable and easy to daily drive.
Although, 348 was near its end of the life cycle and then Ferrari brought out the 355 shortly after NSX was launched. The case in point, Honda was actually keeping numbers at the time as part of the development of the NSX.
Also, a funny thing I saw on SupraForums where most Supra fanbois were arguing that a 1993 Supra could destroy the NSX around the race track, which was laughable to be honest. Yes, the Supra was quicker in a straight line, but that is where it ended. The NSX was better in just about every other measurable way.
I think this video should be quite interesting for you to watch
BTW, Honda did make the Ferrari 348 as the benchmark for the NSX and also marketed it initially as better performing car compared to the Ferrari 348 while also being much more reliable and easy to daily drive.
Although, 348 was near its end of the life cycle and then Ferrari brought out the 355 shortly after NSX was launched. The case in point, Honda was actually keeping numbers at the time as part of the development of the NSX.
Also, a funny thing I saw on SupraForums where most Supra fanbois were arguing that a 1993 Supra could destroy the NSX around the race track, which was laughable to be honest. Yes, the Supra was quicker in a straight line, but that is where it ended. The NSX was better in just about every other measurable way.
I think this video should be quite interesting for you to watch
great video, thanks for posting! i remember watching this before. it's pretty amazing how far behind the nsx-r started out and then it still ended up winning. but to be fair it's the nsx-r which is quite a bit faster and also cost quite a bit more.
another video of the nsx-r i remember most would be the one with na2 nsx-r going against gallardo, murcielago, 360, etc... in the 2000s. it was so much fun to see how the nsx-r still got ahead but lost in the end because it overheated. not an excuse but it still shows what the car can do
absolutely right that the nsx used 348 as benchmark but when the car was done it was about to get into 355. i haven't driven the 355 and 360 before, but from what i have heard, people say the nsx still matches up very well even against the 360.
what you brought up about supra and nsx is really really similar to what the lfa sees now against some other cars. not the fastest on the straight, but put it on the track with the right driver and it's one crazy machine. that's what i call the whole package, the balance.
not a lot of people can see that, they are too blinded by hp numbers and who reaches the next red light first. any real drivers will say otherwise. well, ask jeremy
02-23-13, 10:02 PM
#28
Lexus Test Driver
Nice video. I always noticed how Best Motoring always used the NSX-R and almost never the standard NSX.
Nowadays, the name of the game boils down to even tires and electronics. With times when tire technology has gone to the point where using racing slick compound tires yields 10% improvement in lap time and side-to-side torque vectoring differential for RWD cars really changed the game.
The fact that LFA can put down top tier lap times (including LFA Nurburgring Edition's record 7:14 albeit with higher grip tires than the normal LFA) without usage of racing slick compound tires, is truly a huge accomplishment. People might criticize the standard LFA for not being faster than the 458 Italia, but the fact that it can put down comparable lap times without the sticky tires of the Ferrari, without a double-clutch transmission and without the fancy torque vectoring differential truly is a testament of the brilliance of the engine, chassis, steering and suspension.
As you had read Roy Mallady's response to my comments, he was extremely regretful of not allowing his LFA to be used by car and driver for more than a very limited time and that they were scared of pushing it too hard as it was his privately owned car (he was not aware of what Ferrari was doing to beat the LFA, which he found out after the fact). He firmly believed if he had to do it all over again, he would have given the C&D driver more practice laps and that his LFA could have beaten the 458 Italia's lap time.
Clarkson driving NSX around the Laguna Seca:
Nowadays, the name of the game boils down to even tires and electronics. With times when tire technology has gone to the point where using racing slick compound tires yields 10% improvement in lap time and side-to-side torque vectoring differential for RWD cars really changed the game.
The fact that LFA can put down top tier lap times (including LFA Nurburgring Edition's record 7:14 albeit with higher grip tires than the normal LFA) without usage of racing slick compound tires, is truly a huge accomplishment. People might criticize the standard LFA for not being faster than the 458 Italia, but the fact that it can put down comparable lap times without the sticky tires of the Ferrari, without a double-clutch transmission and without the fancy torque vectoring differential truly is a testament of the brilliance of the engine, chassis, steering and suspension.
As you had read Roy Mallady's response to my comments, he was extremely regretful of not allowing his LFA to be used by car and driver for more than a very limited time and that they were scared of pushing it too hard as it was his privately owned car (he was not aware of what Ferrari was doing to beat the LFA, which he found out after the fact). He firmly believed if he had to do it all over again, he would have given the C&D driver more practice laps and that his LFA could have beaten the 458 Italia's lap time.
Clarkson driving NSX around the Laguna Seca:
my car has 56k miles already and it's my daily driver. people call me crazy but i say it's crazy not to enjoy this car
great video, thanks for posting! i remember watching this before. it's pretty amazing how far behind the nsx-r started out and then it still ended up winning. but to be fair it's the nsx-r which is quite a bit faster and also cost quite a bit more.
another video of the nsx-r i remember most would be the one with na2 nsx-r going against gallardo, murcielago, 360, etc... in the 2000s. it was so much fun to see how the nsx-r still got ahead but lost in the end because it overheated. not an excuse but it still shows what the car can do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w45H0EiBZVM
absolutely right that the nsx used 348 as benchmark but when the car was done it was about to get into 355. i haven't driven the 355 and 360 before, but from what i have heard, people say the nsx still matches up very well even against the 360.
what you brought up about supra and nsx is really really similar to what the lfa sees now against some other cars. not the fastest on the straight, but put it on the track with the right driver and it's one crazy machine. that's what i call the whole package, the balance.
not a lot of people can see that, they are too blinded by hp numbers and who reaches the next red light first. any real drivers will say otherwise. well, ask jeremy
great video, thanks for posting! i remember watching this before. it's pretty amazing how far behind the nsx-r started out and then it still ended up winning. but to be fair it's the nsx-r which is quite a bit faster and also cost quite a bit more.
another video of the nsx-r i remember most would be the one with na2 nsx-r going against gallardo, murcielago, 360, etc... in the 2000s. it was so much fun to see how the nsx-r still got ahead but lost in the end because it overheated. not an excuse but it still shows what the car can do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w45H0EiBZVM
absolutely right that the nsx used 348 as benchmark but when the car was done it was about to get into 355. i haven't driven the 355 and 360 before, but from what i have heard, people say the nsx still matches up very well even against the 360.
what you brought up about supra and nsx is really really similar to what the lfa sees now against some other cars. not the fastest on the straight, but put it on the track with the right driver and it's one crazy machine. that's what i call the whole package, the balance.
not a lot of people can see that, they are too blinded by hp numbers and who reaches the next red light first. any real drivers will say otherwise. well, ask jeremy
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-23-13 at 11:02 PM.
02-25-13, 11:36 AM
#29
Nice video. I always noticed how Best Motoring always used the NSX-R and almost never the standard NSX.
Nowadays, the name of the game boils down to even tires and electronics. With times when tire technology has gone to the point where using racing slick compound tires yields 10% improvement in lap time and side-to-side torque vectoring differential for RWD cars really changed the game.
The fact that LFA can put down top tier lap times (including LFA Nurburgring Edition's record 7:14 albeit with higher grip tires than the normal LFA) without usage of racing slick compound tires, is truly a huge accomplishment. People might criticize the standard LFA for not being faster than the 458 Italia, but the fact that it can put down comparable lap times without the sticky tires of the Ferrari, without a double-clutch transmission and without the fancy torque vectoring differential truly is a testament of the brilliance of the engine, chassis, steering and suspension.
As you had read Roy Mallady's response to my comments, he was extremely regretful of not allowing his LFA to be used by car and driver for more than a very limited time and that they were scared of pushing it too hard as it was his privately owned car (he was not aware of what Ferrari was doing to beat the LFA, which he found out after the fact). He firmly believed if he had to do it all over again, he would have given the C&D driver more practice laps and that his LFA could have beaten the 458 Italia's lap time.
Clarkson driving NSX around the Laguna Seca:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olWCXfwTvhI
Nowadays, the name of the game boils down to even tires and electronics. With times when tire technology has gone to the point where using racing slick compound tires yields 10% improvement in lap time and side-to-side torque vectoring differential for RWD cars really changed the game.
The fact that LFA can put down top tier lap times (including LFA Nurburgring Edition's record 7:14 albeit with higher grip tires than the normal LFA) without usage of racing slick compound tires, is truly a huge accomplishment. People might criticize the standard LFA for not being faster than the 458 Italia, but the fact that it can put down comparable lap times without the sticky tires of the Ferrari, without a double-clutch transmission and without the fancy torque vectoring differential truly is a testament of the brilliance of the engine, chassis, steering and suspension.
As you had read Roy Mallady's response to my comments, he was extremely regretful of not allowing his LFA to be used by car and driver for more than a very limited time and that they were scared of pushing it too hard as it was his privately owned car (he was not aware of what Ferrari was doing to beat the LFA, which he found out after the fact). He firmly believed if he had to do it all over again, he would have given the C&D driver more practice laps and that his LFA could have beaten the 458 Italia's lap time.
Clarkson driving NSX around the Laguna Seca:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olWCXfwTvhI
what you said is exactly what a lot of people are "fooled" and "blinded by" these days. people care way too much into the time without understanding what's happening behind the scene. we have seen enough bs from ferrari on how the cars are prepped for track, and at the same time, how the lfa is as stock as one can ask for without tuning or "crash all you want" disclaimers
but still, i think it's even more important to try to depart away from these "times". they really don't mean that much. not 1% of the cars will hit that kind of limit or usage. the lfa being such a fantastic and comfortable (feel good) car to drive, that is the key
02-25-13, 08:18 PM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
Agreed. 100% spot on.
i think most of the time they try to get their hands on the most hard core edition if possible? nsx-r is so track oriented (not even radio) so it would be the ideal choice..
what you said is exactly what a lot of people are "fooled" and "blinded by" these days. people care way too much into the time without understanding what's happening behind the scene. we have seen enough bs from ferrari on how the cars are prepped for track, and at the same time, how the lfa is as stock as one can ask for without tuning or "crash all you want" disclaimers
but still, i think it's even more important to try to depart away from these "times". they really don't mean that much. not 1% of the cars will hit that kind of limit or usage. the lfa being such a fantastic and comfortable (feel good) car to drive, that is the key
what you said is exactly what a lot of people are "fooled" and "blinded by" these days. people care way too much into the time without understanding what's happening behind the scene. we have seen enough bs from ferrari on how the cars are prepped for track, and at the same time, how the lfa is as stock as one can ask for without tuning or "crash all you want" disclaimers
but still, i think it's even more important to try to depart away from these "times". they really don't mean that much. not 1% of the cars will hit that kind of limit or usage. the lfa being such a fantastic and comfortable (feel good) car to drive, that is the key