germeezy1

You own an LFA and are a moderator on a Lexus forum, so of course I would not expect your response to be anything but in favor of the LFA. As I already said, the support for the LFA is expected and my post was only intended to give a counter point to those that think that Lexus should kick their feet up at their desk because the LFA is so good. At the end of the day the things that makes brands like Ferrari great are their image, sales , and mareting not just the cars and thats what I am speaking of. Again I never said the LFA was a bad car in any way, I am just saying that the commerical success of the car is lacking in some ways.

There are so many good cars in this class that all of the choices are amazing choices and cars anyone would be proud to own. The LFA is at best class competitive in most areas, and class leading in a few but those notable areas are intangibles and areas that can not be quantified. In fact in the drivers car test that featured the LFA, the professional drivers did not like many things about the cars performance on a race track. Again I understand that this is a Lexus forum, but sometimes a slightly different opinion brings a certain clarity to the discussion.

gengar

As a short aside in order to clarify: 1) I favor the LFA. That is why 2) I own one and that is why 3) I am a moderator on a Lexus forum. #3 follows #2 which follows #1. Not the other way around.

I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting that Lexus should rest on its laurels. I also don't think reality backs that up anyway. We already see in the FT86 that the LFA along with the guidance of Akio Toyoda has pushed Toyota in a new direction. The FT86 is a car that reviewers are ecstatic about - and is a vehicle I feel is absolutely necessary for the survival of car enthusiasm as we know it. The LF-LC, although only a concept at this point, appears heavily influenced by the LFA and could be what many enthusiasts have been asking for: A performance-oriented Lexus coupe that is more affordable. And certainly, Lexus still has much up the development pipeline.

And again, it just depends what metrics you choose to evaluate the LFA. That's all I'm trying to point out here. You keep bringing up things like marketing and sales and branding. But basing the success of the LFA off financials, marketing, sales, etc., just seems silly for any sports car and especially for the LFA since it was a car that was never built for those purposes. Similarly, rejecting the intangibles seems silly for the same reason - in that the LFA was built for those purposes.

The way I see it, if people have to reach to things like financials and marketing and sales and the emblem on it to criticize the LFA, it's because they can't find anything else worthwhile to criticize. Lexus certainly has had its share of stumbles in rolling out the LFA (and I've discussed my opinion on that at length in various threads in this forum), but what does that have anything to do with the LFA's out-of-this-world engineering, what it represents as an enigma of sorts in today's supercar world of horsepower and spec/lap time wars, or how it compares to the Aventador? It's just like CAR in their initial comparo with the SLS bashing the LFA for being un-Lexus-like and not being a good daily driver. I mean, really? You're a performance-oriented magazine yet taking a purpose-built carbonfiber supercar with a 9k-redlining engine that screams F1, and complaining about daily driving? Given CAR's comparo in this thread, I guess what they really meant by "un-Lexus-like" is that the LFA is a better driver's car than the Aventador.

There's certainly nothing wrong with discussion; that's why we're here. However, some discussion is more reasonable than others. Suggesting that Lexus' first foray into the supercar world must be measured against the legendary success of the LS in the luxury world is just silly to me, and seems rather contrary to your goal of "clarity" in discussion.

05RollaXRS

Again, you are not making any sense. It is all about rational and objective thinking and nothing about whether it is a Lexus forum or not. The commercial success has all to do with the fact that Lexus is a new name to the exotic car industry and with that comes brand prestige. Still considering the lack of pedigree, like mentioned before, 48 out of 50 $475,000 LFA NE have been sold already.

Regarding driver's car opinions, you are hand picking one example that contradicts what the majority of the others say.

The so-called "professional driver" (Randy Pobst) did not like the 1M as well, which has been hailed universally by most of the other reviewers including Top Gear. Is that one review enough for you to disregard mountains of the other reviews that speak heavily in favor of the car??

Does that make Europe's most well respected journalist Chris Harris' word "LFA is the best car I have ever driven around Nurburgring" any less credible??

Does that make Auto Week Netherland's Dutch professional racer/tester Sandor Van Ees comment "I would place LFA in the top 5 best cars I have ever driven" any less credible?

Porsche Carrera GT was criticized by Best Motoring, but did that diliute the praises heaped on it by other reviewers??

You name me a car and I will show you a less than impressive review on it where a reviewer was critical of one or more things.

Randy Pobst primarily did not like the fact that LFA did not come with super-sticky high-grip tires ("LFA's weakest link is its Bridgestone S001 tires"), which made the car oversteer under power and he felt it was too scary for him and required too much of his attention all of the time (which to most other people is the more "engaging and rewarding" type of car that requires total commitment from the driver), which is an issue of the weak tires (while almost all other cars were wearing super-sticky high-grip racing compound tires). Again, that was his own subjective opinion.

The fact that LFA is hailed as one of the best of all times by "most" in Europe (Evo magazine, Car magazine, Auto Express, AutoBild, Auto Zeitung Germany etc.) and America alike (again, most, which means about 99% of the reviews it has been a part of) says the car over delivers on what it should.

You mention intangibles, which is what is truly the most difficult part to master. That is what most of the cars are missing these days. Lexus did exactly that. Even considering tangibles, the fact that it can put down impressive tangible results including the 7:14 lap time without giving up on luxury amenities is nothing short of astonishing.

S2000toIS350

In terms of having comparos be done on new models in the same price category, this is the one that makes sense for the LFA until the 599 replacement comes out.

Both are great, yet different machines and it is kind of fun to read some data and opinions. I don't have a sense that these articles do the selling.

For folks in Chicago, Perillo has a white Aventador in the their Gold Coast shop. Very cool looking. Kind of like something the US Air Force would do if they built a car.

Off topic, Gengar, how was Infineon round 2? I was hoping that they had a ring car but since you did not mention it, I guess not. Were the other participants all non dealers this time? Had anyone else taken delivery? Was Scott there? How well did the November week sell? Also your sig no longer includes IL, did you abandon us?

gengar

I agree, and they are totally different machines and likely for totally different people. CAR is spot-on when they talk about the ridiculousness of the Aventador especially in regards to its raw power. Some people are simply attracted to that and that's a big part of why they're Lamborghini fans. I actually was talking to a long-time Lamborghini guy a few weeks ago and he told me that he sold his original Murciélago only a few weeks after getting it because it "wasn't powerful enough", and then bought an LP640 when it came out and thought that was only "borderline acceptable". I was like, um, really, 631hp is "borderline acceptable" and 572hp is downright not sufficient? But yeah, that's what some people like... no different than how I prefer something more engaging and responsive.


I'll post an update on Infineon in the existing thread when I get some time. I didn't get a chance to take many pictures mostly because I wasn't feeling well in the morning, but fortunately I rallied enough to get nearly 25 laps in. Unfortunately I didn't have my GoPro with me which was a shame because Scott Pruett took me for a lap. He's pretty intense at Infineon to say the least.

I decided to ship my LFA down to my Texas residence for the time being so that I can actually drive it during the winter. My long-term work situation as regards Indiana is a little unclear at the moment but I still expect to ship my car back up in the spring when I can drive it again.

LexFather

As opposed to you not owning a Lexus and telling us "you are here to offer a different opinion"? I never understand people trying to point what they like as some way of them being biased when they never point out what they dislike which offers bias they never bring up.

I don't personally know Gengar but I would vouch for him. He seems to be fair and balanced, he offers opinions from both sides, he can spot an idiot a mile away like myself and he is a fairly new moderator, just a few months in.

Gengar is in quite an incredible and frustrating at times position owning the LFA. The fact is that LFA is for connoisseurs and true enthusiasts and driving freaks. They are not people that try to beat another to death with numbers out of a magazine. Sadly it seems most are and most people don't read 3 sentences into a press releases so all the greatness of the LFA is lost.

Case in point, I love Lambo and the Aventedor and the point is completely lost the LFA is the better driving car as people with a lower enthusiast I.Q are stuck on 700hp and 0-60 in blah blah blah. Quite frankly its only on the internet, speaking to numbers over and over when they are rarely duplicated by anyone especially a driver. I've loved Lambos since a kid, they are the EXOTIC car for me yet this thing leaves me absolutely cold. Maybe Audi infected it to much. It just has bigger headlights, bigger air vents, bigger butt, bigger engine, bigger everything. This is what is inflicting all these car brands. BIGGER and MORE.

You maybe missed where the LFA was called by Chris Harris the most thrilling car he has ever driven around the Ring. You might have missed the LFA beating the Ferrari GTO (which I still can't believe) in EVO (a real drivers mag for real enthusiasts, not magazine fluff from nearly everyone else) for being the better drivers car though it was slower with less hp. They did a review on the cars, not the badges, though they mentioned and totally understand, one is a Ferrari GTO (maybe the greatest badge on any car) and one is from Lexus best known for cushy luxury cars.

Toyota/Lexus amazingly with the LFA, FRS/FT86, new GS seem to have made cars for DRIVERS. They are low weight, not as powerful and utterly fantastic to drive in their segments. I don't expect neatherthals and people that only can speak to numbers and can't get past the badges to like them or understand.

The funny thing is here is Toyota, helping save real enthusiasts and cars.

You are more than entitled to your opinion but IMO, like most others that don't like the LFA, you rather explain why it doesn't have 600hp vs why it makes the driver and even passenger feel like they are a part of the road.

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

Mike, I feel your frustration. I've been saying for years how useless it is to pursue insane and useless horsepower numbers when they are such a small part of the enthusiast driving experience. They'd be more relevant if we lived in Germany and drove on the Autobahn. Horsepower is a nice thing to have but it is not the end-all-do-all. Near telepathic input from rubber to steering wheel provides much more fun. BMW became famous for this. Now that Lexus achieved this with the LFA and suddenly it's no longer the panacea? I think not.
Lexus purposely built a car that catered to performance driving. They could have put in more horses but chose to create a great all-around performer. I think they did the right thing. The amount of criticism the LFA gets is proff it did the right thing. If no one is picking at you....you haven't done anything worth the crutiny.
Things are just the way they should be.

jpvarghese

iTrader: (1)

It is insane how much criticism this car gets. People legitimately hate it. I just can't see how anyone who claims to be a car enthusiast can have these type of feelings.

07grIS350

I guess that is a problem for hitting a home run out of nowhere. I think the LFA status can only get better while Toyota/Lexus is helping the cause by filling the line up with more exciting products.

LexFather

Thanks Regg, totally agree

In my short time on the Earth, I've never seen an exotic car so hated, disliked and crapped on for whatever reason. I thought enthusiasts are to welcome all incredible cars like this. It goes to show easily who are real enthusiasts and who are just poseurs. A Lexus product seems to bring that out of people, for whatever reason(s). Its perfectly fine to not like something or just not get it but to see the constant hate the LFA has gotten is quite odd.

What is funny is seeing the tide turn over the last 2 years as the reviews have stated just how damn amazing it is, the videos show how glorious it sounds and more people have gotten a chance to get to see it or drive/ride in it.

Lexus for whatever reason is one of the most successful brands yet there is a vocal group that hates Lexus no matter what they do. Its quite funny.

xander247

Aventador price - $379,700
LFA msrp price - $375,000
LFA Nurburgring Edt. – $465,000

With similar price tags and outstanding performance for any car enthusiast, they both do stand strong as top performance cars, but if I were to reach into my pocket to buy one or the other this is how I see it.

Both cars are amazing machines, but I favor the Aventador in more than one way. Yes the LFA to me is a sexy car on its own, and has the factor of exclusiveness, which is nice to know that your car will be that unique on the road. But when placed next to an Aventador you realize that you’re almost, at least it seems like you're comparing a tiger to a cheetah and classifying them both as predators.

Sure a cheetah is lighter and more agile like the LFA, though not faster on the straight which in my opinion is not really relevant unless you plan on taking your almost half a million dollar car on the tracks. However, when your eyes take sight of the Aventador, you instantly know you are looking at a beast, a top contender that isn’t something for you to just play around with.

To buy a car in this range I would want to feel like I’m buying a true true SuperSport Car. The LFA has proven it worth as a runner up and a great performance car but falls short in my opinion. I feel as though the look of the LFA isn’t fully worth it price. I feel it should be in the 100K range. I feel as though the LFA has the performance to play with the big dogs but I can’t shake that it is more on the scale of an Aston Martin or an R8 than a Lamborghini.

And one thing which I find funny to me after reading the posts in this thread is that many make it seem like Lexus should get all of this recognition just because they made their first supercar after working on it for 9 years as if it is that difficult for top engineers to design a 200 mph car theses days if they have 9 years to do it and plenty of funding. But don’t forget that even though this is their first supercar it isn’t their first car ever made. In fact I feel that many have forgotten that they’ve been making cars for years. I can see if this was a no name company that made their first car to be on this caliber but lexus knows how to build luxury class cars. It shouldn’t really be that much of a surprise that they can make a 200 mph sport car (Bentley and Mercedes for Example). In addition they built a car that in the end even with its price tag will cost lexus more money than what they are selling it for.

And last, though I agree that the Aventador’s look is a risk in that it does raise a question on how long will that hi tech profile last and whether future trends are going to lean towards it or away from it. But I believe that it is a step in a new direction, as far as the LFA, I feel as though cars under 100K will be able to quickly rise and begin rivaling the look of the LFA and Lexus will introduce a model that will be based on the same deign as the LFA with specs more so like the Nissan GT-R (Top Speed 195 mph) and a new LFA will make its stand around 100k.

So when it comes to spending around 400K buying my new SuperSport car when I’m dreaming tonight, I’ll be sticking to a car that not only can perform as one but without a doubt be seen as one not just a nice sports car. Because honestly, if they made a Porsche 911 turbo go 200+ and stuck a $400,000 dollar price tag on it would you want buy it and add it to the realm of SuperSports cars I don’t think so, grant it the LFA is ahead in style than the 911 in my opinion.

05RollaXRS

^^^^

You are comparing a base price to a fully loaded price. Even the comparo mentions that the Aventador is 1.1 million South African Rand more expensive than the LFA.

Even in the US, Aventador are being sold for $580,000.

Yet, LFA should be priced at $100,000?? Are you kidding me???

Also, the comparo clearly says aside from the straight line acceleration, LFA is pretty much superior to the Aventador in every other category such as, driving dynamics, steering, brakes, engine responsiveness, sound, balance and also leaves the Aventador in the dust on windy mountain roads. Around a race track, LFA has a substantial advantage over the Aventador due to better driving dynamics and 550 pounds lighter weight.

Though, you place emphasis on more straight line acceleration, that is your own personal preference and in no way does it make LFA any less of a supercar. It is just different. LFA is excels in other areas where the Aventador can simply not touch it.

You are also completely incorrect to assume LFA cannot beat Lamborghinis when in fact LFA has beaten officially the most hardcore track Lamborghini to date (LP570-4 Superleggera on racing super-slick tires and its Audi clone Audi R8 V10 GT on super slicks) and Ferraris (599 GTB HGTE etc.), which only shows your ignorance on this subject matter.

I could have understood the skepticism when LFA came out and people did not understand this car. Now, after proving so much in nearly every comparison test and beating cars that are built by established exotic car manufacturers for decades and also going down in history as the 4th quickest production car of all times around Nurburgring with a lap time of 7:14 from a manufacturer that has never even come close to building a supercar, still people consistently insisting on LFA being a "second rated exotic supercar not even worth half its price" is just sheer biased negativism. No other way to describe it.

oohpapi44

iTrader: (1)

You guys wonder why this forum has so little traffic??? Really? The OCD some of you have toward this car is unbelievable to the point where I'd hate to take a black light to the room where your LFA posters reside. So what if he doesn't like the car. It's his personal preference and the world isn't going to end and every negative and not so negative review and every criticism doesn't need a response generated. Every thread where the LFA doesn't get 10 out of 10 stars and a judge bending over has to explained away with faulty tires, driver is an idiot or commenter is a poser is redundant and annoying as crap.

If Lexus came through CL at one point in the recent past and started handing out checks for every rebuttal to a negative comment that someone makes on the forum these days, please share that info because I'd love to see how large they are.

You say there is no other way to describe someone else's opinion as 'pure stupid' and I'd have to disagree.

05RollaXRS

Subjective opinions and objectives opinions are two different things.

My criticism is based solely on objective matters when all the facts speak to the contrary. I don't criticize anyone for their subjective preference of some other car over LFA. Everyone has his/her own choice can like one car or another based on their own personal preferences. However, it is all about giving credit where it is fully due in its entirety even if one subjectively prefers something different.

It is about knowing about the facts before raising criticism on something in order to support your personal preferences. Nothing more.

That is all I am going to say.

xander247

Ok first I was comparing what is advertised as the base price for both models and the LFA which I heard has a second model that is even more expensive where as the Aventador does not. And I didn’t say it should be priced at 100K but the msrp should be in 100k range which is between 100-200k not based on its performance but style and name. With its high performance it would be far to be a 200K range sports car that is like I said on the level as a high performance Aston Martin if they did a standard and a high performance package. But given its name and style I can’t classify it as a SperSports car just as I don’t classify a V12 Vantage as a SuperSports car but a fine sports car hands down.

Second I did not emphasis on more straight line accelerations as I stated I don’t believe that the straight is completely relevant unless your were going to use the cars on the tracks. And I believe that I said that the LFA has proven its worth but feel it falls short to truly be classified as a SuperSport car but without a doubt a great sports car indeed. So I don’t know were you got me saying that it isn’t a great performance car that can't hold its own.

And last like I said why are people so amazed that a car company can build a sports car if given the time and resources; Especially one that they will lose more money producing than what they will gain in sale profits. If every car company had that type of business plan then I’m sure you would see more high-end sports cars. But you do indeed see other companies pushing out high performance cars. Biggest examples I would say are the Bentley Continental SS and Nissan GT-R.

Bentley Continental SS
Top speed 204mph
0-60 in 3.7sec
MSRP of $273,000 dollars.

Nissan GT-R
Top Speed 196mph
0-60 in 2.9sec
MSRP of $90,000 dollars

Lexus LFA
Top speed 202 mph,
0-60 in 3.6sec
MSRP of $375,00 dollar

Do I believe that Lexus has earned the right to place its LFA amongst the Top SuperSports cars…NO, but can it hold its own against them…Without a doubt.



A true SuperSports car has more than just performance but what I believe to be very important is stage presence as a SuperSport. When you compare a LFA next to a GT-R you get the feeling that the GT-R was the first generation model and the LFA is the new model upgrade with a new facelift, which tells you that they are on the same course in style. Where as you compare the LFA to a Aventador and you will clearly see that the look of the Aventador is the look of a true SuperSport car with the right of its price tag along with it prestigious Lamborghini name. With that, I simply do not feel that Lexus has yet earned their place with the LFA as to be a true worthy SuperSports Car with a near 400,000K price tag. But is the LFA an amazing machine, like I said without a doubt.