Best Motoring Fuji Teaser: '12 GTR vs Lexus LFA vs ZR-1 vs F430 Scuderia vs GT2 RS
05-06-11, 10:57 PM
#121
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Wow! Awesome details and fun to read their impressions in such minute details. I really really appreciate you carefully noting all the details down and writing them up to share with us. Thanks so much, motohide. 
No problem guys!
I do what I can out of enthusiasm!!
Upon revisting the video, here are some of the comments made in the latter Supercar battle scenes.
These are my translation within what I feel "in context" of what they were trying to convey, but may not be accurate in terms of word for word order and direct translations.
"While the GTR had to rely on the launch control to get ahead of the pack at the start, the heavy coupe performed amazingly well among its competition. Notable was the sheer power but not limited to it, as the GTR behaved very predictably with tenacity at amazing rates. Especially in the sections of 180R corner at Fuji that requires a accelerating force combined with high lateral G forces, the car exhibited stability that amazed us all. In comparison, the Corvette lacked the finesse in dealing with the combined chassis loads even though the Corvette was very capable in steady-state cornering, and acceleration in separate individual states."
"The LFA was raced with both traction control and stability assist turned ON, and together it provided a wide margin of stable tractability. Previous laps before qualifying, we did with both OFF, TRACTION ON/Stability OFF, and vice versa and did not result in the overall improvement of laps, only that with the systems off, on a high speed track like Fuji, the driver had to pay much more attention to wild transitions that would keep things a handful to manage. Despite the peaky nature of chassis such as the LFA with mid-front layout and ultralight carbon frame, the LFA in pure form without assist was very predictable however, and exhibited all the responses that an experienced driver would expect. With the systems turned on, the car only became sweeter and easier, allowing you to relax in various stages of the track and enjoy the magnificent sounds and utter stable manners. On the tight chicane at the end of the back straight, there was a tendency to under-steer a bit when the turn in was initiated without enough braking, but in exchange the stability control managed to allow the car to easily get back on line with RWD platform's advantage of not carrying any driving load of mechanical forces, and quickly redirected the car into the second apex at will. You can see this in effect when the Porsche 911 GT2RS had dove into the inside line for almost sure overtake, yet the LFA managed to secure an outside line to stay with the GT2RS side by side, and denied the overtake by closing the line into the second apex of the chicane after the 180R. This is something of a trait usually reserved for FR layout balanced perfectly, which the LFA is pretty close to that perfection."
"The Corvette ZR1 is a sheer rocket when it comes to straight-line acceleration, the car reached 276km/h as we passed the Bridgestone Bridge on the straight just before the massive braking zones, and almost doubted if the car can actually slow enough to get around turn one. KT jokingly said, if the GTR is a twin turbo, the Corvette feels like it has four! Timing of each shift was so busy using a standard clutch that it really needs LESS gears or paddle shifter!!"
"The LFA deserves credit in that in all contortion and loads, low-stability difficulties of attitudes and sheer freaky nature of what FUJI throws on cars at these speeds, the LFA simply cooked all the tricky sections as master chef connecting a dish. Drivers can trust it to go further and the car will show you what not to do, by gently allowing you to correct without fear. Within a few laps, all of us got enough feedback by pushing beyond the ideal, and found where it is happiest. And with that knowledge, each lap just becomes better and better for most drivers. It is a spectacular car in that respect, and unlike other hard-edged cars in this field, the LFA is the car suited for learning, at all levels."
"LFA might be, the BEST sounding production car engine, in the WORLD"
"Nissan GTR (R35), has evolved from 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and now 2011... each step seeming to improve on something most of us thought was not possible. Yes it still is a big heavy car with AWD and quirks, but what it puts down on asphalt as performance, is something of a miracle. While the car may not improve on speeds and specs each edition, the precision and comfort levels keep improving each year. The newest 2011, with the ($45,000) premium option of EGOIST package, the chassis is even more poised for comfort, while losing none of the speed, and even improving precise feel of the car in tighter sections"
"Porsche 911 GT2RS in tradition of Porsche, raises the same excellent handling character to another level. Being the most simple of the cars here, it still managed to stay within the pack, right down to the last lap. The braking forces and acceleration forces are its forte, and thus one must always be aware that this car needs to be driven in a unique way which is the traits needed for any Porsche Meister"
"Corvette ZR1 changed the way I see American sports cars. It is no longer cheap in feel, and handling characteristics are still unique but isn't really something you can ridicule anymore. It is world class in every right, without losing its identity, something they should be proud."
"The prancing horse Ferrari 360 and 430 has always displayed a wild, razor edge handling, making the drivers very careful and alert in the past on FUJI. Notably the front traction sometimes surprisingly lacking, it was always a car you steered with the rear end, despite the eager tendencies to swap front to tail for diving too eagerly. This F430 has been reworked by RSD tamed it somewhat, and reducing radius corners became fun, even for a car like the F430."
I do what I can out of enthusiasm!!
Upon revisting the video, here are some of the comments made in the latter Supercar battle scenes.
These are my translation within what I feel "in context" of what they were trying to convey, but may not be accurate in terms of word for word order and direct translations.
"While the GTR had to rely on the launch control to get ahead of the pack at the start, the heavy coupe performed amazingly well among its competition. Notable was the sheer power but not limited to it, as the GTR behaved very predictably with tenacity at amazing rates. Especially in the sections of 180R corner at Fuji that requires a accelerating force combined with high lateral G forces, the car exhibited stability that amazed us all. In comparison, the Corvette lacked the finesse in dealing with the combined chassis loads even though the Corvette was very capable in steady-state cornering, and acceleration in separate individual states."
"The LFA was raced with both traction control and stability assist turned ON, and together it provided a wide margin of stable tractability. Previous laps before qualifying, we did with both OFF, TRACTION ON/Stability OFF, and vice versa and did not result in the overall improvement of laps, only that with the systems off, on a high speed track like Fuji, the driver had to pay much more attention to wild transitions that would keep things a handful to manage. Despite the peaky nature of chassis such as the LFA with mid-front layout and ultralight carbon frame, the LFA in pure form without assist was very predictable however, and exhibited all the responses that an experienced driver would expect. With the systems turned on, the car only became sweeter and easier, allowing you to relax in various stages of the track and enjoy the magnificent sounds and utter stable manners. On the tight chicane at the end of the back straight, there was a tendency to under-steer a bit when the turn in was initiated without enough braking, but in exchange the stability control managed to allow the car to easily get back on line with RWD platform's advantage of not carrying any driving load of mechanical forces, and quickly redirected the car into the second apex at will. You can see this in effect when the Porsche 911 GT2RS had dove into the inside line for almost sure overtake, yet the LFA managed to secure an outside line to stay with the GT2RS side by side, and denied the overtake by closing the line into the second apex of the chicane after the 180R. This is something of a trait usually reserved for FR layout balanced perfectly, which the LFA is pretty close to that perfection."
"The Corvette ZR1 is a sheer rocket when it comes to straight-line acceleration, the car reached 276km/h as we passed the Bridgestone Bridge on the straight just before the massive braking zones, and almost doubted if the car can actually slow enough to get around turn one. KT jokingly said, if the GTR is a twin turbo, the Corvette feels like it has four! Timing of each shift was so busy using a standard clutch that it really needs LESS gears or paddle shifter!!"
"The LFA deserves credit in that in all contortion and loads, low-stability difficulties of attitudes and sheer freaky nature of what FUJI throws on cars at these speeds, the LFA simply cooked all the tricky sections as master chef connecting a dish. Drivers can trust it to go further and the car will show you what not to do, by gently allowing you to correct without fear. Within a few laps, all of us got enough feedback by pushing beyond the ideal, and found where it is happiest. And with that knowledge, each lap just becomes better and better for most drivers. It is a spectacular car in that respect, and unlike other hard-edged cars in this field, the LFA is the car suited for learning, at all levels."
"LFA might be, the BEST sounding production car engine, in the WORLD"
"Nissan GTR (R35), has evolved from 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and now 2011... each step seeming to improve on something most of us thought was not possible. Yes it still is a big heavy car with AWD and quirks, but what it puts down on asphalt as performance, is something of a miracle. While the car may not improve on speeds and specs each edition, the precision and comfort levels keep improving each year. The newest 2011, with the ($45,000) premium option of EGOIST package, the chassis is even more poised for comfort, while losing none of the speed, and even improving precise feel of the car in tighter sections"
"Porsche 911 GT2RS in tradition of Porsche, raises the same excellent handling character to another level. Being the most simple of the cars here, it still managed to stay within the pack, right down to the last lap. The braking forces and acceleration forces are its forte, and thus one must always be aware that this car needs to be driven in a unique way which is the traits needed for any Porsche Meister"
"Corvette ZR1 changed the way I see American sports cars. It is no longer cheap in feel, and handling characteristics are still unique but isn't really something you can ridicule anymore. It is world class in every right, without losing its identity, something they should be proud."
"The prancing horse Ferrari 360 and 430 has always displayed a wild, razor edge handling, making the drivers very careful and alert in the past on FUJI. Notably the front traction sometimes surprisingly lacking, it was always a car you steered with the rear end, despite the eager tendencies to swap front to tail for diving too eagerly. This F430 has been reworked by RSD tamed it somewhat, and reducing radius corners became fun, even for a car like the F430."
05-07-11, 01:19 AM
#122
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Here is '12 GTR vs Turbo S with Tiff and Jason. The results are consistent with AutoZeitung's comparo of these two cars where Turbo S killed the GTR as well.
Strangely, Turbo S beat the '12 GTR comfortably in this video when LFA had last year smoked the Turbo S around Nurburgring by 6 seconds in the AutoBild supercomparo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoP5R...layer_embedded
Strangely, Turbo S beat the '12 GTR comfortably in this video when LFA had last year smoked the Turbo S around Nurburgring by 6 seconds in the AutoBild supercomparo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoP5R...layer_embedded
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 05-07-11 at 03:10 PM.
05-07-11, 01:22 PM
#124
Lexus Champion
Very nice details. Good read, proves the LFA can battle with anything. It's just a learning curve and if the battle went on for more laps, I bet it'd be faster and faster as the brakes won't fade and the drivers find even more limits.
05-07-11, 08:39 PM
#125
Also important to note, Best Motoring in 1993 had media PR cars come in from factory with various levels of optimized re-tune for video testing. They found Nissan, BMW, Jaguar and others tweaked their cars far from ordinary, and was not the production state. So since 1993, BM has always sourced cars from random owners who bought them right out of the dealer, to make absolutely sure that it was indeed a production model. This is why the super cars in this test were also chosen from customer pool, including the LFA. BM does include tuned cars from shops at times, to expose what can be done with cars by reputable shops like Mines, RDZ, Alipna and others, but in such case it is always mentioned and described as such. BM has therefore been the most credible of sources and media I have watched in recent years.
PS: During the late 90's to mid-2000, Lancer/Impreza battles for minor upgrades became so widely promoted on Tsukuba laptimes, that both Mitsubishi and Subaru tuned the production models heavily to optimize for Tsukuba. Which is why you rarely see them out of these venues in laptime comparison, and they excel in similar raceways. That's not a bad thing for a Subaru/Mitsubishi as most owner/enthusiasts enjoy Impreza WRX Sti and Lancer EVO on places like these, small dedicated course or autocross venues, to which Tsukuba is an excellent proving ground.
Last edited by motohide; 05-07-11 at 08:45 PM.
05-07-11, 11:28 PM
#126
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Again, thanks so much for your further insight. It is great that they picked randomly public copies of the cars in order to avoid the situation where the cars are "prep'ed" just for the track tests, which seems to have become a huge issue in recent years.
As I had indicated before, Lexus LFA had a serious shortcoming of lacking high-grip tires that other production cars in this battle had. It is even more important just like you mentioned on a circuit like Fuji, which is not a high grip track. If it were Tsukuba, I could have seen LFA being on a more level playing field with other cars.
As far as I am concerned, since tires make a huge difference in lap times, I wish they would have put high-grip tires on the Lexus LFA. Lexus chose to put serious Potenza RE70 tires on the 'ring edition, yet chose to give the standard LFA only well-rounded dry/wet grip tire for street driving.
Again, unfortunately all the bench racers on the internet just used the "lap times" without the context as their objective tool to spew hate on the cars they have an agenda against.
As I had indicated before, Lexus LFA had a serious shortcoming of lacking high-grip tires that other production cars in this battle had. It is even more important just like you mentioned on a circuit like Fuji, which is not a high grip track. If it were Tsukuba, I could have seen LFA being on a more level playing field with other cars.
As far as I am concerned, since tires make a huge difference in lap times, I wish they would have put high-grip tires on the Lexus LFA. Lexus chose to put serious Potenza RE70 tires on the 'ring edition, yet chose to give the standard LFA only well-rounded dry/wet grip tire for street driving.
Again, unfortunately all the bench racers on the internet just used the "lap times" without the context as their objective tool to spew hate on the cars they have an agenda against.
It's another one of those situations. Places like Fuji Speedway, and Tsukuba, as well as most race tracks around the world, requires for any car, a very focused and dedicated customization to really pound down lap-times, the faster cars perform. Just like professional race cars are configured very differently for each venue they race. Laptimes really can't be used for comparison on production cars that are FIXED, meaning no tire choice, no suspension and engine character re-tune, and gear range optimizations. Certain cars are tuned heavily for one venue and not for others. While getting a respectable lap times in any fixed venue test is a great comparison, it should not be used to purely judge a production car on any one form of track. Tuskuba is a high grip, low speed technical track, Nurburgring is the other extreme with variable surface, lots of off camber and high speed corners, and ultra long straights. Still the BM casters all reported in amazement, how well rounded a GTR, LFA, and 911GT2RS are on most any track. And that small differences of couple of seconds can always be re-tuned if the owners did a little tweaking, to optimize it for the venue and weather.
Also important to note, Best Motoring in 1993 had media PR cars come in from factory with various levels of optimized re-tune for video testing. They found Nissan, BMW, Jaguar and others tweaked their cars far from ordinary, and was not the production state. So since 1993, BM has always sourced cars from random owners who bought them right out of the dealer, to make absolutely sure that it was indeed a production model. This is why the super cars in this test were also chosen from customer pool, including the LFA. BM does include tuned cars from shops at times, to expose what can be done with cars by reputable shops like Mines, RDZ, Alipna and others, but in such case it is always mentioned and described as such. BM has therefore been the most credible of sources and media I have watched in recent years.
PS: During the late 90's to mid-2000, Lancer/Impreza battles for minor upgrades became so widely promoted on Tsukuba laptimes, that both Mitsubishi and Subaru tuned the production models heavily to optimize for Tsukuba. Which is why you rarely see them out of these venues in laptime comparison, and they excel in similar raceways. That's not a bad thing for a Subaru/Mitsubishi as most owner/enthusiasts enjoy Impreza WRX Sti and Lancer EVO on places like these, small dedicated course or autocross venues, to which Tsukuba is an excellent proving ground.
Also important to note, Best Motoring in 1993 had media PR cars come in from factory with various levels of optimized re-tune for video testing. They found Nissan, BMW, Jaguar and others tweaked their cars far from ordinary, and was not the production state. So since 1993, BM has always sourced cars from random owners who bought them right out of the dealer, to make absolutely sure that it was indeed a production model. This is why the super cars in this test were also chosen from customer pool, including the LFA. BM does include tuned cars from shops at times, to expose what can be done with cars by reputable shops like Mines, RDZ, Alipna and others, but in such case it is always mentioned and described as such. BM has therefore been the most credible of sources and media I have watched in recent years.
PS: During the late 90's to mid-2000, Lancer/Impreza battles for minor upgrades became so widely promoted on Tsukuba laptimes, that both Mitsubishi and Subaru tuned the production models heavily to optimize for Tsukuba. Which is why you rarely see them out of these venues in laptime comparison, and they excel in similar raceways. That's not a bad thing for a Subaru/Mitsubishi as most owner/enthusiasts enjoy Impreza WRX Sti and Lancer EVO on places like these, small dedicated course or autocross venues, to which Tsukuba is an excellent proving ground.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 05-07-11 at 11:33 PM.
05-08-11, 12:05 AM
#127
As far as I am concerned, since tires make a huge difference in lap times, I wish they would have put high-grip tires on the Lexus LFA. Lexus chose to put serious Potenza RE70 tires on the 'ring edition, yet chose to give the standard LFA only well-rounded dry/wet grip tire for street driving.
Sure, a sticker rubber and stiffer radial body construction of more aggressive tires will make it lap faster, but that only works to upset the car's total design concepts. And LFA's reasons for existing is not about that... If it was, then the LFA would have been made with cheaper materials, AWD, and turbo, and slotted with value in mind. Less intrinsic, and more raw numbers, just like the GT-R and Corvette. LFA is a different animal.
LFA does not need an excuse for lapping slower than other cars. It is fine for what it is trying to be, an exercise in creating something with Toyota's talents all placed into a basket and coming up with something unmatched in total detail and balance as being a great automobile for its time.Toyota set a target performance threshold, to which the LFA performs with great finesse and incites pleasures worthy of the $375,000 price tag to those 500 people who will buy them for such. That is what LFA is for. Nothing else really.
And for that matter, us discussing it as something else has no bearing on what LFA is at all.
Last edited by motohide; 05-08-11 at 02:17 AM.
05-08-11, 05:31 AM
#128
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I think you've made perfect senses here. There were at least one LFA customer who bought 2 cars, and one is the Nurburgring Edition for track work. I did not quite understand that at the time, but I guess the dedicated tuning of it would make huge differences on tracks.
I really don't see it against a shortcoming, but rather a great representation of the fact that the LFA from the start, is not about getting track times faster than competition, nor for beating other cars. It exists in its own world as dictated by what Lexus/Toyota wants it to be, and for that purpose, the LFA's OEM tire choice offers very predictable handling, excellent wet weather performance, and the level of grip is precisely balanced to the chassis, sub-frame, suspension, power levels, and all the peripheral components like bushings, and mounts to give an overall presentation of a world class car at the level of true refinement.
Sure, a sticker rubber and stiffer radial body construction of more aggressive tires will make it lap faster, but that only works to upset the car's total design concepts. And LFA's reasons for existing is not about that... If it was, then the LFA would have been made with cheaper materials, AWD, and turbo, and slotted with value in mind. Less intrinsic, and more raw numbers, just like the GT-R and Corvette. LFA is a different animal. LFA does not need an excuse for lapping slower than other cars. It is fine for what it is trying to be, an exercise in creating something with Toyota's talents all placed into a basket and coming up with something unmatched in total detail and balance as being a great automobile for its time.
Toyota set a target performance threshold, to which the LFA performs with great finesse and incites pleasures worthy of the $375,000 price tag to those 500 people who will buy them for such. That is what LFA is for. Nothing else really. And for that matter, us discussing it as something else has no bearing on what LFA is at all.
Sure, a sticker rubber and stiffer radial body construction of more aggressive tires will make it lap faster, but that only works to upset the car's total design concepts. And LFA's reasons for existing is not about that... If it was, then the LFA would have been made with cheaper materials, AWD, and turbo, and slotted with value in mind. Less intrinsic, and more raw numbers, just like the GT-R and Corvette. LFA is a different animal.
LFA does not need an excuse for lapping slower than other cars. It is fine for what it is trying to be, an exercise in creating something with Toyota's talents all placed into a basket and coming up with something unmatched in total detail and balance as being a great automobile for its time.Toyota set a target performance threshold, to which the LFA performs with great finesse and incites pleasures worthy of the $375,000 price tag to those 500 people who will buy them for such. That is what LFA is for. Nothing else really.
And for that matter, us discussing it as something else has no bearing on what LFA is at all.
05-08-11, 05:08 PM
#129
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh0pX...layer_embedded
As expected, my suspicions came true, Lexus LFA started in 2nd gear when 1st gear should have been the best gear to start:
2000 rpm, 2nd gear at only 50 KM/H when first gear goes till 86 KM/H?? Why would he want to do that???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukiQ...embedded#at=86
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZibVb...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh0pX...layer_embedded
As expected, my suspicions came true, Lexus LFA started in 2nd gear when 1st gear should have been the best gear to start:
2000 rpm, 2nd gear at only 50 KM/H when first gear goes till 86 KM/H?? Why would he want to do that???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukiQ...embedded#at=86
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZibVb...layer_embedded
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 05-08-11 at 07:37 PM.
05-09-11, 11:51 AM
#130
Lexus Champion
Someone said on another forum, that they each started in 2nd gear. Even so, the speed they start at could be beneficial towards other cars in 2nd gear because of the gearing. Oh well.
05-09-11, 11:57 AM
#131
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
LFA is the only car that had a 9500 rpm rev limit out of the 4. The other cars were limited to 6500 - 6700 rpm so they had no choice but to start in 2nd gear. 1st gear at 50 km/h would either be impossible or puts it right at redline.
LFA is geared with a 9500 rpm so it's right gear to start was 1st gear. In 1st gear it would have put at 6000 - 6400 rpm at 50 km/h right where it should have been for an off-the-line burst.
LFA is geared with a 9500 rpm so it's right gear to start was 1st gear. In 1st gear it would have put at 6000 - 6400 rpm at 50 km/h right where it should have been for an off-the-line burst.
05-09-11, 01:04 PM
#132
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Here is another excuse you could throw at it: The rear spoiler probably acted as an air brake and slowed down the LFA. They should have a manual override for drag races. It can not be hard to put one in...
05-09-11, 03:59 PM
#134
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Probably is, but I think it's making closer to 600hp, just like I think the pre-'12 GT-Rs are a fair bit over 500hp. Thing pulls like a freight train on the long straight, even the Porsche didn't look to pull as hard. Needlessly to say, I am disappointed, but not as much as I thought I would be. If anything congratulations are in order to Nissan for significantly upping their game over the lifespan of the GT-R.
05-09-11, 07:13 PM
#135
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
I don't about the power since GTR '12 dyno around 430 - 440 wheel HP and the older one's (like in the MotorTrend comparo) were in the high-300s and low-400 lbs. Then you factor in the 400 lbs more weight as most weigh in the 3950 lbs region, it is difficult to see. Lexus LFA dyno'ed 515 wheel HP on a very reliable dyno.
If you look at the Insideline drag race in the dessert, LFA only lost due to spinning off the line and then held 2 cars behind it all the way till the end of the race.
The car was also very green with only 867 KM on it (541 miles).
However, as noted before LFA's aerodynamics are not ideal at all for high speed acceleration. In Battle of The Supercars, Foust kept finding a way to retract the spoiler for the top speed acceleration test on 1-mile runway.
Lexus officially puts it at 0.31 with the spoiler retracted and it measured to be 0.39 with the spoiler deployed by SportAuto.
If you look at the Insideline drag race in the dessert, LFA only lost due to spinning off the line and then held 2 cars behind it all the way till the end of the race.
The car was also very green with only 867 KM on it (541 miles).
However, as noted before LFA's aerodynamics are not ideal at all for high speed acceleration. In Battle of The Supercars, Foust kept finding a way to retract the spoiler for the top speed acceleration test on 1-mile runway.
Lexus officially puts it at 0.31 with the spoiler retracted and it measured to be 0.39 with the spoiler deployed by SportAuto.
Probably is, but I think it's making closer to 600hp, just like I think the pre-'12 GT-Rs are a fair bit over 500hp. Thing pulls like a freight train on the long straight, even the Porsche didn't look to pull as hard. Needlessly to say, I am disappointed, but not as much as I thought I would be. If anything congratulations are in order to Nissan for significantly upping their game over the lifespan of the GT-R.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 05-09-11 at 07:24 PM.