Best Motoring Fuji Teaser: '12 GTR vs Lexus LFA vs ZR-1 vs F430 Scuderia vs GT2 RS
05-13-11, 02:16 PM
#167
Lead Lap
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ontario
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry I am steering this thread further off topic, as we seems to run out of excuses for why the LFA didn't do well in this test
05-13-11, 10:06 PM
#169
But for reasons other than wanting a left hand drive for bragging rights, there isn't all that much advantages to buy one to import back to Japan if the car is brand new like the LFA, and there are no exchange rate cost reasons for doing so. This sort of thing is more apparent and common on collectible vintage cars, that go back and forth as investors play with currencies and treat cars more for trading advantages of profits on short term. Right now, from the West Coast, there are a lot of Lamborghini V12 cars from Countach, Diablo to Mucielago shipping to Japan for this very reason. Ferrari and Bentleys have gone sky-high in demand in the USA and due to lack of exchange advantage, fewer of them are shipping away. Also a lot of Lexus LS460's and LX570 are shipping out of East to UAE and European nations for exchange reasons and cheaper market prices in the USA.
Last edited by motohide; 05-13-11 at 10:25 PM.
05-13-11, 10:17 PM
#170
About the track test results. Look at a 2000GT and Nissan Fairlady ZG 432 and Skyline GT-R KGC10.
For them it matters very little which is faster, its more about a very rare car, with great personality that stands the test of time and popularity.
Honda NSX also will have a place in the domain like this, as well as AE86 Corollas, Sunny, Datsun 510, Isuzu 117, Berett, and Mazda Cosmo, Honda City Turbo II, DR30 Skyline... and stuff like extremely rare DOME P2 and Be-1 or Figaro.
For most LFA owners, this very intrinsic reason is probably the main attraction, rather than out-lapping other cars for speed trophies.
For them it matters very little which is faster, its more about a very rare car, with great personality that stands the test of time and popularity.
Honda NSX also will have a place in the domain like this, as well as AE86 Corollas, Sunny, Datsun 510, Isuzu 117, Berett, and Mazda Cosmo, Honda City Turbo II, DR30 Skyline... and stuff like extremely rare DOME P2 and Be-1 or Figaro.
For most LFA owners, this very intrinsic reason is probably the main attraction, rather than out-lapping other cars for speed trophies.
05-13-11, 10:47 PM
#171
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
OK I am going to jump in a bit.
I truly believe LFA does so many thing so well and it is spectacular. I am the biggest fan of the LFA in the world. Nothing short of that.
However, on the same note, I don't believe there is any justification whatsoever about a $375,000 super exotic stock ultra high performance supercar getting beaten by a $100,000 stock sports car built on a much more limited budget around the race track. If it were a $400,000 Bentley Continental GT, I am sure no one would care, but LFA is completely a different case. Conversely, if LFA was $150,000 - $220,000, it would be a different thing.
Both subjective and objective arguments hold their own importance and cannot be substituted one for the other. For that price, I believe LFA should have all the subjective qualities/advantages that it already has (bespoke, F1 sound, 9500 rpms, response, engine, carbon fiber etc.) and also the ability to outperform the cheaper sports cars/supercars around the race track (not necessarily in a straight line). That was the true magic of all-time greatest supercars like Enzo, F40 and Carrera GT back in their respective times.
Both LFA and GTR are currently in production. I do believe that with similar tires as the other cars are wearing, LFA would have performed substantially better leveling the playing field. However, that is not an excuse since Lexus chose to not put high grip tires on standard LFA (yes, high-grip tires handle the wet just fine too).
That is the name of the game and it is the inconvenient truth that none of us wants to admit to and we keep coming up with all of these subjective rationales to make ourselves feel better. Same applies to GT2 RS as well.
I truly believe LFA does so many thing so well and it is spectacular. I am the biggest fan of the LFA in the world. Nothing short of that.
However, on the same note, I don't believe there is any justification whatsoever about a $375,000 super exotic stock ultra high performance supercar getting beaten by a $100,000 stock sports car built on a much more limited budget around the race track. If it were a $400,000 Bentley Continental GT, I am sure no one would care, but LFA is completely a different case. Conversely, if LFA was $150,000 - $220,000, it would be a different thing.
Both subjective and objective arguments hold their own importance and cannot be substituted one for the other. For that price, I believe LFA should have all the subjective qualities/advantages that it already has (bespoke, F1 sound, 9500 rpms, response, engine, carbon fiber etc.) and also the ability to outperform the cheaper sports cars/supercars around the race track (not necessarily in a straight line). That was the true magic of all-time greatest supercars like Enzo, F40 and Carrera GT back in their respective times.
Both LFA and GTR are currently in production. I do believe that with similar tires as the other cars are wearing, LFA would have performed substantially better leveling the playing field. However, that is not an excuse since Lexus chose to not put high grip tires on standard LFA (yes, high-grip tires handle the wet just fine too).
That is the name of the game and it is the inconvenient truth that none of us wants to admit to and we keep coming up with all of these subjective rationales to make ourselves feel better. Same applies to GT2 RS as well.
About the track test results. Look at a 2000GT and Nissan Fairlady ZG 432 and Skyline GT-R KGC10.
For them it matters very little which is faster, its more about a very rare car, with great personality that stands the test of time and popularity.
Honda NSX also will have a place in the domain like this, as well as AE86 Corollas, Sunny, Datsun 510, Isuzu 117, Berett, and Mazda Cosmo, Honda City Turbo II, DR30 Skyline... and stuff like extremely rare DOME P2 and Be-1 or Figaro.
For most LFA owners, this very intrinsic reason is probably the main attraction, rather than out-lapping other cars for speed trophies.
For them it matters very little which is faster, its more about a very rare car, with great personality that stands the test of time and popularity.
Honda NSX also will have a place in the domain like this, as well as AE86 Corollas, Sunny, Datsun 510, Isuzu 117, Berett, and Mazda Cosmo, Honda City Turbo II, DR30 Skyline... and stuff like extremely rare DOME P2 and Be-1 or Figaro.
For most LFA owners, this very intrinsic reason is probably the main attraction, rather than out-lapping other cars for speed trophies.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 05-13-11 at 11:31 PM.
05-13-11, 11:57 PM
#172
OK I am going to jump in a bit.
I truly believe LFA does so many thing so well and it is spectacular. I am the biggest fan of the LFA in the world. Nothing short of that.
However, on the same note, I don't believe there is any justification whatsoever about a $375,000 super exotic stock ultra high performance supercar getting beaten by a $100,000 stock sports car built on a much more limited budget around the race track. If it were a $400,000 Bentley Continental GT, I am sure no one would care, but LFA is completely a different case. Conversely, if LFA was $150,000 - $220,000, it would be a different thing.
Both subjective and objective arguments hold their own importance and cannot be substituted one for the other. For that price, I believe LFA should have all the subjective qualities/advantages that it already has (bespoke, F1 sound, 9500 rpms, response, engine, carbon fiber etc.) and also the ability to outperform the cheaper sports cars/supercars around the race track (not necessarily in a straight line). That was the true magic of all-time greatest supercars like Enzo, F40 and Carrera GT back in their respective times.
Both LFA and GTR are currently in production. I do believe that with similar tires as the other cars are wearing, LFA would have performed substantially better leveling the playing field. However, that is not an excuse since Lexus chose to not put high grip tires on standard LFA (yes, high-grip tires handle the wet just fine too).
That is the name of the game and it is the inconvenient truth that none of us wants to admit to and we keep coming up with all of these subjective rationales to make ourselves feel better. Same applies to GT2 RS as well.
I truly believe LFA does so many thing so well and it is spectacular. I am the biggest fan of the LFA in the world. Nothing short of that.
However, on the same note, I don't believe there is any justification whatsoever about a $375,000 super exotic stock ultra high performance supercar getting beaten by a $100,000 stock sports car built on a much more limited budget around the race track. If it were a $400,000 Bentley Continental GT, I am sure no one would care, but LFA is completely a different case. Conversely, if LFA was $150,000 - $220,000, it would be a different thing.
Both subjective and objective arguments hold their own importance and cannot be substituted one for the other. For that price, I believe LFA should have all the subjective qualities/advantages that it already has (bespoke, F1 sound, 9500 rpms, response, engine, carbon fiber etc.) and also the ability to outperform the cheaper sports cars/supercars around the race track (not necessarily in a straight line). That was the true magic of all-time greatest supercars like Enzo, F40 and Carrera GT back in their respective times.
Both LFA and GTR are currently in production. I do believe that with similar tires as the other cars are wearing, LFA would have performed substantially better leveling the playing field. However, that is not an excuse since Lexus chose to not put high grip tires on standard LFA (yes, high-grip tires handle the wet just fine too).
That is the name of the game and it is the inconvenient truth that none of us wants to admit to and we keep coming up with all of these subjective rationales to make ourselves feel better. Same applies to GT2 RS as well.
And I have 20 years of track driving under my belt too... and I have driven the LFA on track. And as far as I am concerned, those fractions of a second or the OEM tire selections don't really make a difference to me. If I was to OWN one hypothetically, I have a habit of putting on a set of track performance tires anyway, which will put many seconds advantage over the GTR on OEM tires. No one goes to a racing track to do timed laps seriously on street radials, not only for speed reasons but for safety as well, allowing cars to stay on the road and stop better. And we always develop and test small changes constantly to improve and tailor a car to any track given time and resources.
Try going to SCCA Pro or even SOLO2 Nationals, or any serious timed event with real rules and regulations. You will see that comparing cars stock for stock without even playing with alignment or tires become a null, pointless conversation. If all setting had to stay and there was only ONE good setting on any car for all venues, Formula ONE teams will consist of only tire changers and a driver, and the 50 other telemetry and mechanics will simply be un-needed. However that is not the case. They feverishly work on F1 cars all year long, and that applies to certain extent from any grassroots racer to the pinnacle of F1.
Having said that, if anyone wants to seriously lap on a track, including LFA owners, they will do thier own things beyond what Toyota has set as an arbitrary point as OEM. This is because the LFA is a Lexus street legal automobile, whose task out of the showroom floor, is to please the owners with best balance of what Lexus inteneded as customer comfort, noise levels, bushing stiffness, spring rates, steering speed, shift feel and many hundreds of other factors which has nothing to do with Fuji Speedway lap times... It was actually tuned at the Nurburgring, and streets of many cities and highways from almost every continent, as well as many other raceways around the world.
This is the TOYOTA WAY, and others are different.
Last edited by motohide; 05-14-11 at 12:13 AM.
05-14-11, 12:12 AM
#173
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
FYI, I have done Solo 2 events locally many times.
My car right now is wearing ExtremeContact DW Continental Max Performance tires (which are ranked on the same level as S001 Potenza) and I switched from ultra high performance tires before (Michelin Exaltos).
My car right now is wearing ExtremeContact DW Continental Max Performance tires (which are ranked on the same level as S001 Potenza) and I switched from ultra high performance tires before (Michelin Exaltos).
Trust me, I can't make the LFA lap as fast as its potential anyway, and neither can Scott Pruitt, not anyone, as there will always be someone who can do a fraction of a second better, records only stand forever when tracks are changed or lost forever, and as long as somebody can still drive on it, somebody will beat the lap. It's not a big deal if you REALLY know motorsports. There are 1000 changes you can make to simple alignment, brake pads, etc that can affect many fractions of seconds on any racetrack. OEM setting is always a compromise and it's not catered to the track, or any particular place or asphalt.
And I have 20 years of track driving under my belt too... and I have driven the LFA on track. And as far as I am concerned, those fractions of a second or the OEM tire selections don't really make a difference to me. If I was to OWN one hypothetically, I have a habit of putting on a set of track performance tires anyway, which will put many seconds advantage over the GTR on OEM tires. No one goes to a racing track to do timed laps seriously on street radials, not only for speed reasons but for safety as well, allowing cars to stay on the road and stop better. And we always develop and test small changes constantly to improve and tailor a car to any track given time and resources.
Try going to SCCA Pro or even SOLO2 Nationals, or any serious timed event with real rules and regulations. You will see that comparing cars stock for stock without even playing with alignment or tires become a null, pointless conversation. If all setting had to stay and there was only ONE good setting on any car for all venues, Formula ONE teams will consist of only tire changers and a driver, and the 50 other telemetry and mechanics will simply be un-needed. However that is not the case.
And I have 20 years of track driving under my belt too... and I have driven the LFA on track. And as far as I am concerned, those fractions of a second or the OEM tire selections don't really make a difference to me. If I was to OWN one hypothetically, I have a habit of putting on a set of track performance tires anyway, which will put many seconds advantage over the GTR on OEM tires. No one goes to a racing track to do timed laps seriously on street radials, not only for speed reasons but for safety as well, allowing cars to stay on the road and stop better. And we always develop and test small changes constantly to improve and tailor a car to any track given time and resources.
Try going to SCCA Pro or even SOLO2 Nationals, or any serious timed event with real rules and regulations. You will see that comparing cars stock for stock without even playing with alignment or tires become a null, pointless conversation. If all setting had to stay and there was only ONE good setting on any car for all venues, Formula ONE teams will consist of only tire changers and a driver, and the 50 other telemetry and mechanics will simply be un-needed. However that is not the case.
05-14-11, 12:17 AM
#174
I'll add this as well. If Toyota's vision for the LFA was ONLY to beat a GTR on Fuji, then it would have likely been a AWD car and would have been different in concept from the start. And as such and with $375,000 freedom of MSRP, it would have been much faster than $100,000 GTR.
But, as far as I'm concerned, that would have sucked. I like the LFA just the way they designed it, a carbon framed, naturally aspirated car.
But, as far as I'm concerned, that would have sucked. I like the LFA just the way they designed it, a carbon framed, naturally aspirated car.
05-14-11, 12:19 AM
#175
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
So are you assuming 458 Italia, GT2 RS, Ferrari 599 GTO all being RWD cannot wipe out the GTR around the track?? Ofcourse, if that is the case, my views are completely regarding the prowess of RWD are different than your's.
Not to mention, LFA being RWD comfortably had beaten GTR R35.1 in several tests around the track.
Not to mention, LFA being RWD comfortably had beaten GTR R35.1 in several tests around the track.
I'll add this as well. If Toyota's vision for the LFA was ONLY to beat a GTR on Fuji, then it would have likely been a AWD car and would have been different in concept from the start. And as such and with $375,000 freedom of MSRP, it would have been much faster than $100,000 GTR.
But, as far as I'm concerned, that would have sucked. I like the LFA just the way they designed it, a carbon framed, naturally aspirated car.
But, as far as I'm concerned, that would have sucked. I like the LFA just the way they designed it, a carbon framed, naturally aspirated car.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 05-14-11 at 12:23 AM.
05-14-11, 12:23 AM
#176
I personally have driven as tire warmer for my drivers and took home a trophy from those laps too. I mean no offense and sorry if I seem persistent on my expression and impression of LFA, but going on and on about that one FUJI track test result seems pointless to me. Too many variables as TF109 and others also expressed, which really isn't something LFA should not be considered any less because Toyota tuned it for something else completely, and it was only Best Motoring's choice to conduct the test on Fuji, which happened to suit the GTR on that day.
05-14-11, 12:25 AM
#177
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Agreed. 
Great! We're on the same page then? I've taken my team to SCCA Solo2 Topeka Nationals twice and took 1st place twice in 2 categories. I personally have driven as tire warmer for my drivers and took home a trophy from those laps too.
I mean no offense and sorry if I seem persistent on my expression and impression of LFA, but going on and on about that one FUJI track test result seems pointless to me. Too many variables as TF109 and others also expressed, which really isn't something LFA should not be considered any less because Toyota tuned it for something else completely, and it was only Best Motoring's choice to conduct the test on Fuji, which happened to suit the GTR on that day.
I personally have driven as tire warmer for my drivers and took home a trophy from those laps too. I mean no offense and sorry if I seem persistent on my expression and impression of LFA, but going on and on about that one FUJI track test result seems pointless to me. Too many variables as TF109 and others also expressed, which really isn't something LFA should not be considered any less because Toyota tuned it for something else completely, and it was only Best Motoring's choice to conduct the test on Fuji, which happened to suit the GTR on that day.
05-14-11, 12:26 AM
#178
So are you assuming 458 Italia, GT2 RS, Ferrari 599 GTO all being RWD cannot wipe out the GTR around the track?? Ofcourse, if that is the case, my views are completely regarding the prowess of RWD are different than your's.
Not to mention, LFA being RWD comfortably had beaten GTR R35.1 in several tests around the track.
Not to mention, LFA being RWD comfortably had beaten GTR R35.1 in several tests around the track.
If the race conditions were purely in the dry, then RWD seems to be the faster solution for weight and tire loads... Seeing that at the VERY pinnacle of speed on asphalt in top racing forms from NASCAR, INDY, F1 and GT...all cars are pretty much RWD. (I know there are few exceptions, but generally true...right?)
Last edited by motohide; 05-14-11 at 12:30 AM.
05-14-11, 12:31 AM
#179
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Agreed. A well prep'ed dry track makes LFA perform like a champ.
The GT2 RS vs LFA head to head drag race by InsideLine was held on the prep'ed section drag strip with compound on it and LFA was blisteringly quick.
The GT2 RS vs LFA head to head drag race by InsideLine was held on the prep'ed section drag strip with compound on it and LFA was blisteringly quick.
I'm only saying RWD would have been a disadvantage if the car's ONLY mission was to beat other cars, as simple thing like RAIN or snow will render AWD as totally advantageous...
If the race conditions were purely in the dry, then RWD seems to be the faster solution for weight and tire loads... Seeing that at the VERY pinnacle of speed on asphalt in top racing forms from NASCAR, INDY, F1 and GT...all cars are pretty much RWD. (I know there are few exceptions, but generally true...right?)
If the race conditions were purely in the dry, then RWD seems to be the faster solution for weight and tire loads... Seeing that at the VERY pinnacle of speed on asphalt in top racing forms from NASCAR, INDY, F1 and GT...all cars are pretty much RWD. (I know there are few exceptions, but generally true...right?)
05-18-11, 10:54 AM
#180
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter