ReeM

Need a little bit of sound system help. Im trying to go with the Image Dynamics setup but the amps arent going to be able to support the power.

ID CTX 6.5 2 way component speakers
Peak: 400 watt Pair / 200 watt each
RMS: 200 watt Pair / 100 watt each
Recommended: 25-200 each

ID XS28 Silk Dome Tweeters
Peak: 400 watt pair / 200w each
RMS: 200 watt pair / 100 each

IDMAX12 V.3 D4 12'' Dual 4 Ohm Subwoofers
Peak: 3600 watt pair / 1800 watt each
RMS: 2000 watt pair / 1000 watt each

Subwoofer Amp choices: (All amps are class D 1 channel)
Boss PH4000D
RMS Power Rating:
4 ohms: 1600 watts x 1 chan.
Max Power Rating:
2 ohms: 3000 watts x 1 chan.
Max power output: 4000 watts

SoundStorm (SSL) EV4000D
RMS Power Rating:
4 ohms: 1600 watts x 1 chan.
Max power output:
2 ohms: 3000 watts x 1 chan.
1 ohm: 4000 watts x 1 chan.

SPL FX1-5500D
RMS Power Rating:
4 ohms: 1700 watts x 1 chan.
2 ohms: 2500 watts x 1 chan.
1 ohm: 3200 watts x 1 chan.
Max power output: 5500 watts x 1 chan.

SoundStorm (SSL) EV5000D
RMS Power Rating:
4 ohms: 1800 watts x 1 chan.
2 ohms: 2500 watts x 1 chan.
Max power output:
4 ohms: 2200 watts x 1 chan.
2 ohms: 3500 watts x 1 chan.
1 ohm: 5000 watts x 1 chan.

Power Acoustik CPT1-5500D
RMS Power Rating:
4 ohms: 1700 watts x 1 chan.
2 ohms: 2500 watts x 1 chan.
1 ohm: 3200 watts x 1 chan.
Max power output: 5500 watts

(this may sound noobish) Question: Lets say the amp i choose has 2000 watts x 1 chan. @ 4 ohms, since i have 2 subwoofers will each subwoofer get 2000 watts or will it divide and get 1000 watts a piece?

Speaker Amp choices: (4 channel)
Visonik VK1600.4
RMS Power Rating:
4 ohms: 200 watts x 4 chan.
2 ohms: 400 watts x 4 chan.
Max Power Rating:
Bridged @ 4 ohm: 800 watts x 2 chan.

SoundStorm (SSL) EV4.1600
RMS Power Rating:
4 ohms: 180 watts x 4 chan.
Max power output:
2 ohms: 400 watts x 4 chan.
Bridged, 4 ohms: 800 watts x 2 chan.

Im leaning towards the first one. Also wanted to get the Clarion Equalizer & Crossover, Epicenter Bass Maximizer, a 2,0 Capacitor and the stinger 40 amp power supply. Sounds good?

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

The power divides. You would get @ 500 watts per coil - which is PLENTY of power. Keep in mind power has to go up exponentially to increase the output. If you double the power, you only get about 3dB of add'l output, which is barely audible. If you want two times the output (10dB), you need 10 times the power - something your subs won't handle well. Car won't do it well, either, unless you have a reactor and a Mr. Fusion in the trunk.

Why? The epicenter is meant to restore bass from harmonics. Works well, but having an EQ and that is rather pointless - and will tax the amp even further since you will be asking for more output from it and driving the signal.

Skip the cap unless you already have your entire electrical system upgraded and keeping up with the amps - which is unlikely. Until you do that, the cap is simply another load (and a waste of your $$).

Why do you need a power supply? And a 40A supply won't do anything for you since a 2Kw sub amp will draw 200+ amps on it's own (assuming 80% efficiency @ 12V).

Big Mack

ReeM

Ahh ok i understand now.

I thought the Epicenter was a totally different thing. I know it is a bass maximizer but my friend explained it differently. Thanks for clearing that up.

.

I actually ordered my high output alternator. Im going to upgrade the factory ground strap, engine ground strap and the power wire from the battery to the alternator.

So the Visonik speaker amp should be good and ill choose a subwoofer.

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

No problem, grasshoppa.

Uh...why do you think you need an 800 watt amp for your front stage? If those numbers are anywhere near accurate, I think it's severe overkill. Considering the power thing, the negligible difference between 100 x 4 and 200 x 4 is 3dB and you're doubling your draw on the alternator with that. Think about this - 800 watts will draw about 83 amps while 400 will draw half that. If you're already pulling down 200 amps from your sub amp, the Mr. Fusion issue comes into play again.

Keep in mind, also, that the RMS ratings are simply there to show what the speakers can take for a duration of 8 hours continuously. You do not need that to run them. That's why speakers are rated @ 1W/1M for SPL. When you go from 1W to 10W, you have effectively gone from about 92 dB to 102 dB of output (barring a mechanical failure). Go to 100W, and you've gone from 102 dB to 112 dB. Going from 100 to 200W? 115dB. Not really worth it, IMO.

And you didn't say why you wanted a power supply...I'm curious about that.

Big Mack

irishcharm

iTrader: (1)

= LOL .

-----OP.....So I'm just going to put in my $0.02. Not trying to knock your choices at all, just offering some insight other then large RMS numbers. Side note, peak power, as far as im concerned, is a number that is used to sell product. RMS is what you hear on a consistant basis and is the number to be concerned with.

1. Why are you purchasing a component set and not using the tweeters? I mean I've seen it done it before but that seems highly cost inefficent. Is there another way maybe?

2. The subwoofer specs here say "Recommended Power Range: 200-1000 watts....Pressed paper composite cone woofer". A paper cone is what most OEM base speakers are made of. It is one of the cheaper materials to be used in speakers and also doesnt allow for a quality sound, especially for that price. There are many more options you can choose for that price range.

3. About the Sub/Amp Choices - Stay far away from SPL and Power Acoustik. SPL is a walmart special and the quality of Power Acoustik has gone so far down hill from the past that it is moving into walmart specials. I've never heard of SSL but based on a few sites reviews.....again for the prices, there are numerous other options. you get what you pay for.

4. As far as the 4ch prices.....that visonik is $90 and claiming those numbers......eh. Though Visonik has been around for quite some time, I am still not totally impressed yet.

I would, on the other hand, recommend a CAP and a decent battery to start. If your altenator is being over taxed (which it may be) then eventually replace that with a high output one.

----------Big Mack. Yes, a cap is another load, agreed. However with a decent battery, it will help stablize the current required by the system by smoothing out the AC current that the alt puts out further helping the electrical system. While it will need to be charged obviously....if he cranks up the volume for a good bass song, the cap will assist on keeping the electrical system from keeling over and take less of the initial shock off the battery as the CAP charges and discharges. It will also overall stabalize the electrical load the system places on the vehicle's system.

As far as an EQ over taxing the amp. How did you arrive at that line of reasoning? I am quite a firm believer in the missing link of car audio, as long as you have the ear or equipment to properly tune your new equipment.

http://www.crutchfield.com/learnsear...zers.html?lf=3

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

You like that? I always wanted a Mr. Fusion in my car, even if it was just to recycle the soda bottles and occasional food wrappers.

I wasn't going to get into the equipment choices, as he didn't discuss budget. I will say that the IDMax is a VERY good sub, so dismissing it based on what it is made of is a bit out of hand. There are many good subs that start with a pressed paper pulp cone and can take some serious abuse, but I digress..

Caps and batteries do absolutely zero if the alternator cannot keep up. Short bursts do not mean not keeping up, but when was the last time you saw a car that could keep up with a 3Kw system in stock form? Now that he's clarified he's ordered a HO alt, the cap may be worthwhile, but initially, that info wasn't available.

I think you meant the cap would take more of the initial shock off the battery, which is what it is designed to do, but adding a battery without an alt that can keep up does, again, nothing. And the alt puts out DC, not AC. If your alt is putting out AC, you have issues because it means the rectifier and regulator are toast.

Ah, but please reread - if you have an EQ and an epicenter boosting bass, you will overtax an amp. While I agree with you that a good EQ, in the hands of someone who knows how to tune a system, can work wonders, a lot of people use them to boost signals because that's what they want to hear. Combine that with and Epicenter adding up to +18dB of bass boost, and you've got a recipe for some blown woofers and amps that let out the magic smoke. Seen it plenty of times, so I always caution against it - especially when someone is appearing to be somewhat new and trying to learn the proper way to do things. We all learn from someone/somewhere, so why not make it a good resource for others, you know? I had good teachers when I was coming up in the game of car audio (I miss those days), and I figure passing a little along honors them.

Big Mack

irishcharm

iTrader: (1)

True, I too learned from others.....and a deep cycle battery spoken by Shibumi1 as per another thread..."(lower internal resistance will reduce load on alt)"......and yes i made a AC/DC mistype (rockband not included) meaning pulsating DC voltage.

Also - those numbers on that equipment, for that price, seem skewed. I used to have people say they had a 1300 W amp they wanted installed, they said it cost about $120ish....it was a sony xplod.

I'm actually running around 1600 W RMS on a stock Alt and 5+ year old battery. My alt is angry at me but still keeps going. So though short of 3K W, still hanging in there. And to verify, without a CAP my electrical system all but took a dive on me. with a CAP, it just gets angry and takes my RPMs up extra notches. In some applications it is not needed but it does help. I know many many many installers that will back that statement up.

I did miss the "and that" in your EQ statement. But really though. EQ = FTW.

For similar side bar....name such paper coned subs?

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

I dig AC/DC. Every album sounds the same, and every album sells a ton.

Of course the numbers seem skewed. You'll notice none of them are saying the are CEA watts, just watts. I usually go with WLS when I see that.

Just because your amps run 1600W RMS doesn't mean you're actually hitting that all the time, since that requires a test tone. If you're doing half that much, I'm not surprised the alt can mostly keep up, and does so with a cap. That's only about 80A. Double that, however, and you're toast, like I said. And trust me, I know plenty of installers who are happy to say a cap solves problems like that, but I also know plenty of those with more experience that will prove them wrong with real world examples. Take a look at some of the SPL monsters from days gone by - how many caps did they use? And you want to talk about someone who needs instantaneous power? That's the very definition. Caps serve their purpose - so long as they're not asked for more than that. Stabilizing small voltage variances and delivering a quick jolt, perfect. Trying to keep a car going when you try to run 280A at a whack and your alt is good for 100? Not so much.

I knowed, that's why I said that.

In good hands, yes. In bad ones, not so much. Smiley face, anyone?

Well, considering the IDMax is paper with reinforced fiber and the cone itself is impregnated with resin, it's not as though we're talking about a grocery bag that has been pressed into service, mang. Rockford still uses paper cones that are Kevlar reinforced, and they take abuse like crazy. Some of the Alpine subs are also paper with Kevlar. Paper has been used for a good long time in speaker designs, and for good reason. It can be pressed and treated and still maintain light weight and rigidity without having to move into some of the plastic cones that are extremely inflexible. Good in a sub to a certain extent, but if you listen to them, some of the plastic (IMPP or polymer) cones can sound rather "tinny" or "hollow." And if you ever heard one overexcurt for a second or hit at precisely the resonant frequency of that plastic cone, you know what I'm talking about.

I'm pretty sure these guys know about audio. Given that their high end subs sell for over $ 1200 and it's paper with a Kevlar reinforced cone, I'll go with it not being a bad choice.

Big Mack

irishcharm

iTrader: (1)

CEA....that's why I love that Kicker certifies each of its amps before it leaves the factory.

from my memory, the is250 uses all of that 100A but that with something like 10-15% of that ALT leftover after running the cars functions. So not leaving much for anything amp wise. I would also not state that a CAP is a fix but it is a bandaid for when you crank the bass as I implied it saving my system. Im not one of those installers with a lack of experience though.

EQ

"impregnated with resin" - sounds like an installers saturday night?

As far as my sidebar question it lies in any good audio discussion. Opinions and taste. Example....my boss loves Infinity stuff, my full timer loves Alpine, and I love Kicker. My boss says Kickers KS line sounds like tin, I say Alpine cant hit the low notes a Kicker sub can, and my full timer says that Kicker bottoms out and just rattles at low notes and that Infinity is overpriced for the same items Alpine sells. I appreciate your defense of paper products and the opinion that comes with it. It is how any good installer builds his knowledge base. I may not agree but I can respect the input. (though I prefer Klipsch home audio ).

And yes I have heard a variety of speakers and subs when we "for educational and practical purposes, took every brand of speaker and sub we have, put them onto a controlled, computer produced, tone and frequency generator". Seeing a sub seize up and voice coils fry is a great sight.

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

I've always been a fan of Kicker amps. Subs, not so much, but their amps came onto the scene with gusto and performed well. Kind of pricey, but you got quality with it. Having not even looked at pricing lately, I can't say whether or not they compete on that terrain. It's very challenging with so many "we do that, too!" products coming from China and Korea. I mean, tear into virtually any DEI product and it's the same board in all of them, so of course their price points will be similar.

Wow, I do not envy whoever it is you're enjoying the company of on a Saturday night if you're using resin. Ouch.

I like a variety of products, but it is entirely dependent on what we're talking about. Certain companies make better and more intuitive decks than others, IMO, and it's very hard to find one line that does everything well. I like Infinity for their mids/highs, but Alpine makes pretty good stuff, too. Kickers are on the upside, but I think their mids can be a bit muted for my taste. I abhor almost anything with metal dome tweeters, but if you mask the shear from them with a good grill that tames the shrillness, MBQ used to never disappoint. Haven't heard the latest iterations, so I can't comment on them. I feel so old sometimes...

Yes, it is. Especially when you're doing it with a Mr. Fusion supply (we had one with that logo on it...could supply 300A all day long).

Big Mack

Shibumi1

i've sat quiet long enough..

1st: as far as the choice of amps in relation to the quality of speakers i feel is a poor choice.. save up a stick w/name brand companies ie rockford,kicker,mmats(my personal fav rt now),memphis..etc (always look at rms ratings never peak)

2nd: paper cones are still reliable (whether they're pregnant or not LMAO) more exotic materials work well too.. but the Image D IDMAX is a top notch sub that i would put up against ANYTHING on the market today...

3rd: look at your system as a whole system.. charging,sources, signal processing, amplification, speakers, and INSTALLATION.. what i've found is, the weak link always fails... causing problems w/the rest.. take your time buy QUALITY equipment an do it right the 1st time round.. or spend 10x the money later fixing issues.. it may cost more up front but you'll be happier longer.. an if its done correctly the system (more or less) can go from car to car w/o much expense on your part because quality will last the test of time....

i've have pretty much the same components in my last 4 cars (w trophies to prove it) spanning almost 10yrs...

good luck.. post some pics when ur done i'd love to see how it turns out...

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

Isn't that true in pretty much everything?? That's pretty much why they call it the weakest link.

I keed, I keed!! I funny guy...

Big Mack

Shibumi1

LMAO.... sooo true

but i see guys all the time w top quality products an half a$$ installs.. where woofers are outta phase, poor grounds, wrong gauge wires, (3 caps) instead of 1 proper aux battery.. cheap bulk pack rca's..,generic prefab enclosures 1/2" particle board w 20lb subs..


REALLY?!?! its like 28" wheels and oem brakes.. why bother driving ur just asking for an accident...

Robert_J

Dan Wiggins was questioned years ago why his Tumult and Brahma subs used paper cones (Kevlar impregnated). He said they provided the best balance of strength vs. weight. He even posted a pic of himself standing on an inverted cone. With over 200 pounds of person on it, the cone did not even flex.

If you look at all of the high performance sub makers, all but TC Sounds use paper cones.

Robert_J

Deon Bearden is now at Kicker. If you have been hanging around the audio forums for any length of time, you have heard of him.