patrick323

iTrader: (1)

I was driving. cabin filled with electric smoke. Due to the amount of smoke in the short time...it had to have came from the glove box where my receiver/head unit is installed. I shut everything down.pulled over. Freaked out, shut off car, cursed cause i JuST got it all back from the shop after being rear ended.

Smoke went away (smell lingered). Restarted. My receiver/head unit (in my glove box) powers on. The monitor on the front of the receiver works and shows what video is being input to it. My aftermarket speakers, monitors, lights for my A/V system...nothing get's power. Battery under hood is fine. Battery in the back is fine. I looked for a fuse and was shocked to find no fuse was installed for such a large system. So I installed a breaker for future safety.

So. Capacitors? I had/have two, 40 farad capacitors mounted. My usual "small maintenance" guy I go to says it is without a doubt the capacitors . That makes sense (somewhat) since obviously they are the next point of power, past the battery, to feed the system. He explained something about the capacitor going bad and sending some surge up to the head unit creating the smoke. I ordered new capacitors...then today:

A different shop/ guy said "i dont know what that guy is talking about....it's probably the remote line (in? out?) on the receiver that was fried. " That also seems to make sense given that smoke came from that area.

So I have one pro telling me to get new capacitors (i did, but am now hesitant to install them if the old ones may be ok) and another telling me that the capacitors are fine (based on a voltage test) and that he will be able to rig my head unit to get that remote line somehow working.

I'm not sure who to trust. If it's the capacitors I'm just going to do that all myself. Pretty simple work. What I dont want is to go to whichever dude is wrong!!! If the capacitor guy is right, simple install myself. If I choose to trust the new guy I pay him labor to get a feel for my complicated stuff while he hunts down the problem, then pay him to fix the problem that he things is present.

So: Can the remote-line terminals on the capacitors go bad, rendering the capacitors useless, and still have a good voltage reading from them? Or IS it more likely that since they are receiving power, but nothing is GETTING power,....that the problem lies in the head unit?

Any thoughts?

If the capacitors went bad it is likely because they were mounted directly on top of the amps for my subs. I was told that this a potential bad thing due to heat (i'm just learning about my own system, as problems arise).

I just want my tv's and speakers working again Especially the speakers.

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

This is a very easy test with a meter. Pull deck, but do not disengage harness. Probe remote wire and see if it is powering on when the deck is on. If not, you have your answer. Alternatively, you can go to the first thing inline after the deck to test it there. If it is turning on with the deck, once again you have your answer.

If you saw smoke but the deck still powers on, I would be inclined to believe the guy who said your RTO fried. You likely tried to turn too many things on and it finally gave way. This is why I always recommend using a relay with multiple amps. $5 is cheap insurance, but that's kind of a moot point right now.

Test it and get back to us.

Big Mack

Shibumi1

i concur ...

you can also disconnect the caps an jump 12v from the positive lead of the amp to the remote turn on at the amp and if all else is well audio should return...

make sure u add the relay to the RTO when audio is restored.. an be sure to fuse it (10 to 20amps)

patrick323

iTrader: (1)

I can simply have them probe the remote turn on wire from deck...and if it gets power; it's my capacitors that are the culprit? That seems the easiest way to trouble shoot! That might be very easy because my deck pulls out with semi-easy access (if you have skinny hands).

To clear up some confusion though, the second poster said to jump power from the amp to the remote turn on, the amp. I have 3 amps all powering different things. plus there is some kind of video power source that comes into play somewhere (??). What will that show me by seeing if one amp remotely turns on other than that it's not the amp? In my non-electrical thinking mind..that only shows me that the amps would turn on if they get power. That doesnt seem to clear up the issue of the source of the LACK of power ((caps or RTO from deck) to all lights/speakers/tv's in this whole A/V setup I have. I apologize for being ignorant (for far too long) , but i'm learning.

Next. "Ad a relay and fuse to the RTO" Can you explain the purpose and function of a relay further as it pertains to an RTO. It relays what, to what? Might my RTO already have a relay of some sort when I have 3 amps, 2 capacitors, 6 tvs, etc. etc. ? I agree that it's a good idea to fuse the RTO.

If it is the RTO coming from the deck. Is this a problem that can be fixed or is a new deck needed? The guy with the "it's the deck' point of view mentioned something about rigging it to work. Is this advisable and legit?

Am i correct in assuming I'm best to re-mount these capacitors...NOT directly (each on one 1000w amp) but rather find away to elevate them to not get a direct heat source?

Thanks again for your help. It's coming together in my mind.

Given that my previous Caps are about $500 each....and the ones I bought arent quite as high quality....in a way I'm hoping it's not the caps ..but then i'll have to send new caps back and spend additional money on fixing the deck.

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

It may prove that the caps are the culprit. Troubleshooting is eliminating things step by step - no jumping steps, grasshoppa.

This would show that the amps are at least capable of functioning, thus eliminating them from being a problem, too. Not a bad choice, but I think the problem lies upstream since it's highly unlikely 3 amps took a dump at exactly the same time.

A relay allows for more current than the RTO can supply, since most are rated a 1A at the most. The one in your deck does not have a relay on it, this I will guarantee. You may have a relay downstream, but if the RTO is blown on the deck, I would highly doubt it - and this is something I blame on a **** poor installer if it's the case. You cannot simply daisy chain 10 components from one RTO circuit safely.

It can be fixed, but is usually prohibitively expensive. The go around is to install a relay that is switched by the ignition. Downside to this - the deck no longer turns the system on, so even if you turn it off, the amps and accessories stay on until the car shuts off. Not my choice, but this can be rectified by adding a simple on/off switch inline with whatever is turning on the relay. Simple enough, and yes, legit.

Not having seen your install, it's tough to call, but caps and heat usually aren't a good mix, so I'd advise it may be in your interest to move them regardless of them being the problem.

Glad to do so, mang. You're asking good questions and are open to help, so that makes it easier to do so.

Your call on this one. As I said, you don't necessarily have to repair the circuit for the RTO if the rest of the deck is functional.

Big Mack

patrick323

iTrader: (1)

yes I do, in part, blame some things on ****ty installation. It's a massive system that was swapped from a demo car into mine and they did it pretty fast. Took me a day of tearing apart my car to find the lack of a fuse that should have been up near the battery, and ended up finding there was none at all. I dont know much, but i know THAT is dangerous.

So having RTO power coming from the deck MAY show the culprit is the capacitors. Say im getting power/reading from the deck's RTO showing that it is in tact: What else could possibly be causing a complete lack of power if the batteries are juiced and get a power reading from the deck's RTO...other than the caps? If the amps went out there would still then be an issue BEFORE the amps.... no? It seems to make sense that if illogical to have all 3 amps go out...the first issue lies before the amps (batteries -->RTO-->caps --> amps/lights/tvs). I'm jumping ahead , yes, but I seem to be with you so far so I may as well move forward with learning potential next steps of troubleshooting/elimination beyond testing the deck's RTO.

if 3 amps took a dump. I'm putting my car on the corner with a sledgehammer and a sign that says "$50, 2 hits"...buying a horse and eliminate 80% of the stress in my life haha ( also 20% of the joy unfortunately).

patrick323

iTrader: (1)

RTO from deck does send out power/signal.

Next?

Jump right to trying my new capacitors?

If so I will then ask a couple dummy questions about charging them

swtjlsy

iTrader: (6)

This sound exactly like a RTO problem. The RTO only draw low amount of current so if it was over loaded then you are going to have to try and by pass this now. You can do like was done in the old days and add a toggle switch for turn on and off.

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

Ahem...



You should test the caps to see if they still have a charge. You said the smoke seemed to be coming from the front/glove box area, so not sure that the caps are dead. If they are, you should check the wiring, as the smoke could very well have been insulation burning (the lack of a fuse could have caused this). As for charging, follow the manufacturer's instructions and use a set of gloves - the resistors get hot (little tip - a pinch clothespin works great to hold small resistors ).

Ahem...

Patrick, I would recommend installing a relay now. Check the wiring downstream, but I'll bet there isn't one in the circuit and there should be. I've covered how to do the wiring in other threads, so you can search that portion.

Big Mack

patrick323

iTrader: (1)

Been a while since I checked in. I had been waiting for my most trusted professional source to look at it.

When we took apart some things (took backseat out..took a lot of the fiberglass bottom of my trunk out etc. etc.) There were a myriad of melted wires. One particular super melted one that I cant believe I missed because I looked in this area previously. parts on my car (behind seat, not visible normally) were burnt. I'm lucky my car didnt catch on fire.

ya, it's screwed! At least from the explanation I was given. I'll relay it and maybe someone can at least tell me that it does make sense because I just know what i'm told.

He showed the power wires that were coming into trunk from the second battery (behind backseat armrest) and explained that the person who re-installed my fiberglass (it had to be repaired, repainted and put back in)installed it so that it was smashing these big power cables coming into the trunk. He said that this "created an arc" which caused all this. He advised that I contact insurance company because this is the fault of the person who reinstalled this system after the fiberglass work. He also didnt want to dig amps out and other things to test them until after I make this contact with the insurance to report this issue.

So, ya. That's what's up. I'm so unbelievably bummed. My head unit isnt even working now (it was last time I powered it on a week ago..then not today when I was at the shop). We are not sure if the amps work. etc. etc.

I guess it's more of an update but I'td be nice if someone can confirm that power cables that are really pinched and smashed could cause these issues (?).

He freed up some of these pinched wires for now but here is a photo showing where they were pinched. Then a photo of SOME wire (he knows, i dont) coming from the battery. In areas where the camera cannot reach....there are cables melted together..etc. etc.

patrick323

iTrader: (1)

As for relays...well, we found a bunch of relays and i suppose there's a bunch more in places. I wouldnt know what relay's are missing but I'll be sure and have that looked into when I address this first issue.

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

Ahem...

If said pinching compromises the insulation, power cables can absolutely cause these issues (and far worse). You are right in that you were lucky.

Whoever half assed this deserves to have the other half of their *** handed to them. This is just an unsafe job, plain and simple, and you have every right to be pissed. The guy who was helping you has every right to not want to touch it, too, since that means he's going to be liable for some of it even if it's not his fault. Time to get a completely new setup, installed properly, with fuses and pictures taken of each step for both your piece of mind and the insurance companys'. I know if I were doing that kind of work, you can bet your bottom $ I'd want to make sure everything was documented. Boomerang installs are profit margin killers, and if you can prove something was one way when it left and another when it returned, you get paid.

Sign in my shop: Yes, we can install it for XX price. It will be double if you help.

Big Mack

patrick323

iTrader: (1)

You're pretty awesome and I appreciate your help and info in the thread.

background: The setup was built for a big show (sema I think) in L.A. Of course it was a quick build meant for one show and then to be disassembled. It is, however, too extensive to scrap and start anew. Even if some components are fried it's so customized that I'd just replace those said components. I drove to L.A. and purchased the setup/system and what would be a week long job with a few guys took a very busy shop (the weekend of "hot import nights") 3 days to swap into my car. I'm very fortunate that the 2 and a half years that I've had it went so smoothly (in retrospect).
So. The lack of fuses, etc. etc. is the fault of the builder.

As per pinching of the wires. The two wires that were pinched are melted together a little back out of site, behind the pinch point. I believe that these two pinched main power cables that were melted together is what created the arc, no?

Most impoartantly...Am i Justified in having my insurance go after the shop who disassembled the trunk system which, upon re-install, pinched the wires or is that a lost cause? It was fine albeit the missing fuses for nearly 3 years . Then when the shop disassembled it (after a minor rear end collision).. they pinched the wires upon reassembly of the sub enclosures (which were smashing down on the wires). Can/should THEY be held liable for all damage that came and is yet to be found for this?

Lastly. As far as a new stup.... Umm.
First I'm not sure yet if the amps were effected or not. Either way if insurance holds the shop responsible, I'd have new ones. I've installed a fuse up front. I'm going to be installing a fuse at the back battery. I'll be checking for needed additional relays. My guy said the caps were surely gonners. When you say "new setup" I'm going to assume you mean new cables, fuses, etc. etc. I have motorized tracks with TV's that come from the trunk lid when open and.... Well, i'm not even going to continue. I'm to ditch it all because of some melted wires? haha I'd sooner drive my car off a cliff (with a brick as the driver). I'll assume you mean "revamp"

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

You're very welcome, mang. I try to help where I can.

I understand. I've built show cars and form takes precedence many times, but safety never should. Takes 10 minutes at the most to add proper fuses. Unforgivable, IMO.

Right - the insulation was compromised by the pinching and subsequent rubbing as the vehicle moved the panels, causing the arc/melting/cooking.

I don't think so. The lack of fuses was the larger problem. Obviously the cause was them not putting it back in the right way, but if there were fuses, you would have found the problem without the near disaster and they could have fixed the work without replacing things.

I never use the word revamp, as I hate it (), but I do mean you replace the components that need to be, not ditch the whole schmear. That wouldn't make sense. But running brand new wires (NO SPLICING!!!) and ensuring things are now done safely is paramount. Amps usually aren't affected by a cooked wire, but they're also easy to test. If they work, should be fine to use.

BTW - you need more pitchers on this thread since you say it's got a lot of gear. I like pitchers.

Big Mack

patrick323

iTrader: (1)

Alrighty,

First step...remove tons of fiberglass from trunk. Next step; run new wires. BUT....

On the very last 'pitcher' I posted you will see a red wire that is burned to all hell.

That red wire goes to the amp for the cabin speakers from the blue top battery behind my backseat. The wire is detached from the battery and there is a little burned out hole in the top of the battery where it seemingly came from. I would assume that IF this wire had came from the terminal and merely fell on that part of the battery, burning it, that there would be a little metal O-ring still attached at the terminal but the burning you'll see on the terminal is likely from the main power lines which are now detatched.

I looked up photos of the blue top batteries and there is no plug or terminal of any kind in that spot. It's as any battery, just a positive and a negative terminal. If it did indeed originate from this spot (it had to have) then ..

Why would this cable/wire to the amp be coming from a seemingly modified hole in the top of the battery rather than to the actual terminal to the battery? If some kind of custom plug/terminal/whatever was built for this wire to input into the battery... its gone now. The size of the hole had to be small. All I see now is the burnt end of the cable/wire and the little burt area on top of the battery where I'm guessing the wire was from. The battery is still good. I simply dont have a clue what is going on with this. My first step of getting some new power wires ran has to wait till I find out what the deal is with this.

I should also ask: Sure the battery is good in the sense of it is able to put out power but.....due to the nature of the burn marks and this hole (if it came from it...does a new one have to go back into it??) should I be getting a new one regardless? The cosmetic burn marks do not bother me but perhaps it is dangerous or likely to pose a later issue. ?