Radical Audio?
08-02-02, 10:18 AM
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Radical Audio?
Hi,
I've been talking to the guy at my audio shop today about further upgrading my stereo system. The only upgrades I currently have are the Kenwood headunit, Emphaser E12NEO-X2 sub and the XPulse 800.1 digital mono amp driving the sub. The rest (speakers and Nakamichi amp) are still stock.
I'm pretty sure that X-Pulse and Emphaser are not available or at least not very popular in the USA, so I'm including the links:
http://www.x-pulse.com/flashpulse/index.html
http://www.emphaser.com/flashemphase...r_woofers.html
(Both are in german only, but maybe it helps a little anyway)
Now, I am looking to upgrade the rest of the system. My primary goal is to get better staging, a warm but still very detailed sound and, most importantly eliminate the 'acoustic gap' between the sub and the rest of the system. I am NOT looking for a system that is very loud. I'm listening to a lot of Jazz, so I'm looking for something that is very refined even at low volumes.
What he's recommending is the Radical Audio RA130.2 (5.25 2 way component) for the front, and Radical Audio RA 160.2CX (6.5 2 way coaxial) for the rear, plus an X-Pulse 600.4 amp. He also had a demo car (BMW 316
), with a 6.5 3-way Radical Audio setup in the front. Again, here's the (german only) link: http://www.radical-audio.com/flashradical/index.html
I told him about Dynaudio and other brands that appear to be popular on this board. But all those brands are very rare in Europe, so he has never heard them before. For that reason, he says he wouldn't feel comfortable selling them to me, and I actually give him credit for that.
The thing is, the Radical Audio stuff didn't quite convnince me. The tweeter sounded very aggressive, while the mids were not 'warm' enough for my taste.
So, finally - my questions:
- Does anyone know Radical Audio or has any opinions based on their website?
- Which alternatives would you recommend (especially for the speakers)? Please be as specific as possible, including the exact model and dimensions.
Sorry for this lengthy post, and thanks in advance for any info.
I forgot to add ... the suggested system would cost approx. $3000 including a really nice installation. That's about the max. I'm willing to spend.
I've been talking to the guy at my audio shop today about further upgrading my stereo system. The only upgrades I currently have are the Kenwood headunit, Emphaser E12NEO-X2 sub and the XPulse 800.1 digital mono amp driving the sub. The rest (speakers and Nakamichi amp) are still stock.
I'm pretty sure that X-Pulse and Emphaser are not available or at least not very popular in the USA, so I'm including the links:
http://www.x-pulse.com/flashpulse/index.html
http://www.emphaser.com/flashemphase...r_woofers.html
(Both are in german only, but maybe it helps a little anyway)
Now, I am looking to upgrade the rest of the system. My primary goal is to get better staging, a warm but still very detailed sound and, most importantly eliminate the 'acoustic gap' between the sub and the rest of the system. I am NOT looking for a system that is very loud. I'm listening to a lot of Jazz, so I'm looking for something that is very refined even at low volumes.
What he's recommending is the Radical Audio RA130.2 (5.25 2 way component) for the front, and Radical Audio RA 160.2CX (6.5 2 way coaxial) for the rear, plus an X-Pulse 600.4 amp. He also had a demo car (BMW 316
), with a 6.5 3-way Radical Audio setup in the front. Again, here's the (german only) link: http://www.radical-audio.com/flashradical/index.htmlI told him about Dynaudio and other brands that appear to be popular on this board. But all those brands are very rare in Europe, so he has never heard them before. For that reason, he says he wouldn't feel comfortable selling them to me, and I actually give him credit for that.
The thing is, the Radical Audio stuff didn't quite convnince me. The tweeter sounded very aggressive, while the mids were not 'warm' enough for my taste.
So, finally - my questions:
- Does anyone know Radical Audio or has any opinions based on their website?
- Which alternatives would you recommend (especially for the speakers)? Please be as specific as possible, including the exact model and dimensions.
Sorry for this lengthy post, and thanks in advance for any info.
I forgot to add ... the suggested system would cost approx. $3000 including a really nice installation. That's about the max. I'm willing to spend.
Last edited by supercoupes; 08-02-02 at 10:20 AM.
08-02-02, 02:46 PM
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Acctis,
You are now on your way to car audio hell.
It seems that ACR are recommending the house brands. Be careful. These speakers have no track record and are being sold by the ACR chain only. I wouldn't put them into a 3,000 dollar install and would wonder if they are a bulk purchase from China. No test reports on the Web site either (they say they are too new).
First telltale sign is that they are using plastic baskets. OK in a budget system but not for the money you are spending. A sign of a quality driver is a cast chassis. It's not a guarantee but at least it's a sign that the manufacturer is not skimping.
Second, the component systems are using 19 mm tweeters with a 4 kHz crossover frequency. You should be looking at 1 inch HF units and a crossover frequency as low as possible - certainly not higher than 3 kHz. 2 kHz is the ideal. Kevlar cones break up badly above 3 kHz and should not be used higher than this.
I think the first thing you need to do is change your dealer. Buying from a chain is usually a bad idea. Find yourself an independent specialist. The fact that your dealer has never even heard of Dynaudio (a European brand!) tells me he is a dead loss. A lot of the high end speakers recommended on this forum are European - like Focal - and you should have no problem finding them in Switzerland.
Whose idea was it to change the sub and headunit first? This is not the way to go. The first thing to change out are the door speakers. I don't know the SC4, but in my GS there was no 'acoustic gap' between the bass and mids even with the stock system. Perhaps some SC4 owners could comment. Your remark here makes me wonder what exactly your dealer has been doing so far. If he installed the new sub and amp, it's his responsibility to get it sounding right.
If I were spending that amount of money, I'd want to hear a demo system in a similar car to my own unless I were very familiar with the market, which I don't think you are.
Dynaudio and Focal are often recommended here and they are quality items. Another (European) brand you should try to listen to is the Lotus series by Seas.
I think that my comments probably apply to the amp as well but I couldn't get past all that Flash stuff on the Web site. I don't know much about car amps anyway. You should be aiming to run the system active if possible, which means a very flexible active crossover. I'll leave the recommendations to the other guys.
Stevie
You are now on your way to car audio hell.
It seems that ACR are recommending the house brands. Be careful. These speakers have no track record and are being sold by the ACR chain only. I wouldn't put them into a 3,000 dollar install and would wonder if they are a bulk purchase from China. No test reports on the Web site either (they say they are too new).
First telltale sign is that they are using plastic baskets. OK in a budget system but not for the money you are spending. A sign of a quality driver is a cast chassis. It's not a guarantee but at least it's a sign that the manufacturer is not skimping.
Second, the component systems are using 19 mm tweeters with a 4 kHz crossover frequency. You should be looking at 1 inch HF units and a crossover frequency as low as possible - certainly not higher than 3 kHz. 2 kHz is the ideal. Kevlar cones break up badly above 3 kHz and should not be used higher than this.
I think the first thing you need to do is change your dealer. Buying from a chain is usually a bad idea. Find yourself an independent specialist. The fact that your dealer has never even heard of Dynaudio (a European brand!) tells me he is a dead loss. A lot of the high end speakers recommended on this forum are European - like Focal - and you should have no problem finding them in Switzerland.
Whose idea was it to change the sub and headunit first? This is not the way to go. The first thing to change out are the door speakers. I don't know the SC4, but in my GS there was no 'acoustic gap' between the bass and mids even with the stock system. Perhaps some SC4 owners could comment. Your remark here makes me wonder what exactly your dealer has been doing so far. If he installed the new sub and amp, it's his responsibility to get it sounding right.
If I were spending that amount of money, I'd want to hear a demo system in a similar car to my own unless I were very familiar with the market, which I don't think you are.
Dynaudio and Focal are often recommended here and they are quality items. Another (European) brand you should try to listen to is the Lotus series by Seas.
I think that my comments probably apply to the amp as well but I couldn't get past all that Flash stuff on the Web site. I don't know much about car amps anyway. You should be aiming to run the system active if possible, which means a very flexible active crossover. I'll leave the recommendations to the other guys.
Stevie
08-02-02, 04:24 PM
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Stevie,
Thanks for your helpful comments. In 'defense' of the shop I should say that so far, I was very happy with them so far. It was my idea to change the headunit, because I needed (wanted ) the nav. Also, the sub was my idea. I totally agree that this was a dumb idea, but at that time I just felt that there's not enough bass. And so far, the systems he recommended / installed (he also did that totally custom center console to fit the Kenwood for me) worked very well for me so far. But this time it just didn't feel quite right, especially the fact that they're pretty much limited to their own brands.
Problem is, believe it or not, it's very hard to find a good shop (doing more than just slapping a DIN unit on the car) that doesn't belong to the ACR chain.
And yes, I don't really know the car audio market, and I don't even know much about what I should watch out for when shopping for components. So what I'm hoping for is to benefit from the know how of the people on this board who know what sounds right in an SC.
Thanks for your helpful comments. In 'defense' of the shop I should say that so far, I was very happy with them so far. It was my idea to change the headunit, because I needed (wanted
) the nav. Also, the sub was my idea. I totally agree that this was a dumb idea, but at that time I just felt that there's not enough bass. And so far, the systems he recommended / installed (he also did that totally custom center console to fit the Kenwood for me) worked very well for me so far. But this time it just didn't feel quite right, especially the fact that they're pretty much limited to their own brands.Problem is, believe it or not, it's very hard to find a good shop (doing more than just slapping a DIN unit on the car) that doesn't belong to the ACR chain.
And yes, I don't really know the car audio market, and I don't even know much about what I should watch out for when shopping for components. So what I'm hoping for is to benefit from the know how of the people on this board who know what sounds right in an SC.
08-02-02, 07:54 PM
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First and (imo) best choice for accuracy and detail...Dynaudio. Their graphs prove it and professional studios as well as true audiophiles swear by them. If your dealer hasn't heard of these then he hasn't really been anywhere. Diamond Hex is also another good one for jazz, though a bit veiled compared to the Dynaudio speakers. Focals are also another good choice, but the tweeters (also imo) leave a bit to be desired. MB Quart, ime, lacks too much midbass and the tweeter has a high tendency to ring and sound shrill/harsh due to the titanium material. Another brand that I would take an audition to would be the a/d/s/ speakers. Warm, smooth and a nice rolled off sound from their tweeter, though once again they won't compare to the Dynaudio, but the a/d/s/ speakers are quite "at ease" to listen to.
Not sure what will fit in your vehicle, but the Dynaudio System 240 MK II is a good bet. Take a look at their site .. http://www.dynaudiona.com for more info.
The first thing to do to a vehicle as Stevie mentioned...SPEAKERS FIRST. No exception to this rule unless you're driving the Dynaudio equipped Volvo.
"Not comfortable selling the product" is another way of saying "push his own product above all else." Remember, he's there to stay in business and you have to look at all the angles on what the guy is trying to say.
The Dyns aren't cheap, but they're well worth looking into.
Percy
Not sure what will fit in your vehicle, but the Dynaudio System 240 MK II is a good bet. Take a look at their site .. http://www.dynaudiona.com for more info.
The first thing to do to a vehicle as Stevie mentioned...SPEAKERS FIRST. No exception to this rule unless you're driving the Dynaudio equipped Volvo.
"Not comfortable selling the product" is another way of saying "push his own product above all else." Remember, he's there to stay in business and you have to look at all the angles on what the guy is trying to say.
The Dyns aren't cheap, but they're well worth looking into.
Percy
08-03-02, 05:04 AM
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Acctis,
I have now had a look at your sub and amp. The amp looks good. Oodles of power and good crossover options.
I have a real problem with your sub, however. I hope the dealer has installed this in a cabinet, as it will not work properly in free air. Nor will it work in a sealed cabinet. It needs a reflex enclosure of about 25 liters with a 75 mm x 200 mm port. The port will start to 'chuff' well before you reach the maximum output of the speaker. Not good.
With the spread of crossover options on your amp (including 0 - 180 degree phase adjustment) you should have a seamless transition between your front speakers and your subbass. All the bass should sound as if it's coming from your front of the car.
If the sub has been installed free air, you will have a bad dip between 70 and 120 Hz, which could explain your problem with the bass.
No matter what the quality of workmanship is from this dealer, I strongly suspect you are not receiving good advice. You have paid 800 dollars for a mono amp for your sub, yet are being advised to use cheap plastic speakers up front.
You said yourself that the Radical speakers didn't convince you. That was in the store's demo vehicle. It's not going to get any better in your car. For three thousand bucks expect nothing short of stunning!
Before you start throwing any more money on your system, I would suggest you try to get the dealer to fix the problem with the bass. It is unlikely to go away by installing better door speakers. I'd complain like hell if it were me.
Then I really would look for a better dealer. ACR does seem to have things tied up in Switzerland - but Munich is not too far away and you should be able to find a good specialist dealer there.
You might also consider just changing the door speakers and running them with the Nakamichi amp. You could always change the amp later on if you feel it's necessary.
I am attaching a file with the German Autohifi magazine ratings for 16 cm speakers. It's a bit out of date and I would take anything that magazines say with a pinch of salt. You should try to audition some of the speakers in the Spitzenklasse section.
My best advice is never to buy speakers without listening to them first.
Stevie
I have now had a look at your sub and amp. The amp looks good. Oodles of power and good crossover options.
I have a real problem with your sub, however. I hope the dealer has installed this in a cabinet, as it will not work properly in free air. Nor will it work in a sealed cabinet. It needs a reflex enclosure of about 25 liters with a 75 mm x 200 mm port. The port will start to 'chuff' well before you reach the maximum output of the speaker. Not good.
With the spread of crossover options on your amp (including 0 - 180 degree phase adjustment) you should have a seamless transition between your front speakers and your subbass. All the bass should sound as if it's coming from your front of the car.
If the sub has been installed free air, you will have a bad dip between 70 and 120 Hz, which could explain your problem with the bass.
No matter what the quality of workmanship is from this dealer, I strongly suspect you are not receiving good advice. You have paid 800 dollars for a mono amp for your sub, yet are being advised to use cheap plastic speakers up front.
You said yourself that the Radical speakers didn't convince you. That was in the store's demo vehicle. It's not going to get any better in your car. For three thousand bucks expect nothing short of stunning!
Before you start throwing any more money on your system, I would suggest you try to get the dealer to fix the problem with the bass. It is unlikely to go away by installing better door speakers. I'd complain like hell if it were me.
Then I really would look for a better dealer. ACR does seem to have things tied up in Switzerland - but Munich is not too far away and you should be able to find a good specialist dealer there.
You might also consider just changing the door speakers and running them with the Nakamichi amp. You could always change the amp later on if you feel it's necessary.
I am attaching a file with the German Autohifi magazine ratings for 16 cm speakers. It's a bit out of date and I would take anything that magazines say with a pinch of salt. You should try to audition some of the speakers in the Spitzenklasse section.
My best advice is never to buy speakers without listening to them first.
Stevie
08-03-02, 05:22 AM
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Sorry but I can't upload the file as I only have it in html.
Here's the list (all the tests are from 1999 - 2000):
MB Quart QM 218.61Q - 73 points
Boston Pro Series 6.5 - 72 points
Boston Pro Series 6.4 - 69 points
Infinity XP Beta 1/6/2 - 66 points
MB Quart PSC 216 - 65 points
Dynaudio Sys. 240 MKII - 63 points
Rainbow CS 365 P Extr. - 61 points
Marathon MK 6R - 60 points
Take this as a starting point for auditioning. I would add Focal to the list and would place greater weight on the opinions on this forum than the Autohifi points ratings, because the people here have specific experience of how speakers work in a Lexus.
Should get Percy going, though -
Incidentally, they give the Rainbow Reference Line 260.30 top place on its own with 88 points! Comments, anyone?
Stevie
Here's the list (all the tests are from 1999 - 2000):
MB Quart QM 218.61Q - 73 points
Boston Pro Series 6.5 - 72 points
Boston Pro Series 6.4 - 69 points
Infinity XP Beta 1/6/2 - 66 points
MB Quart PSC 216 - 65 points
Dynaudio Sys. 240 MKII - 63 points
Rainbow CS 365 P Extr. - 61 points
Marathon MK 6R - 60 points
Take this as a starting point for auditioning. I would add Focal to the list and would place greater weight on the opinions on this forum than the Autohifi points ratings, because the people here have specific experience of how speakers work in a Lexus.
Should get Percy going, though -
Incidentally, they give the Rainbow Reference Line 260.30 top place on its own with 88 points! Comments, anyone?
Stevie
08-03-02, 05:32 AM
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OK, if anyone needed proof that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to car audio ... here we go ...
Please tell me you're joking about that sub needing an enclosure!!! It's installed as a free air, simply replacing the OEM sub. I hate the idea, but I guess it's really time to go and find another shop again.
Don't even know if it's possible to fit an enclosure under the rear deck? Anyone?
So, from what I understand, what I should do is to get the bass fixed (either an enclosure or maybe even a new sub that is intended to be used as a free air).
I'd still like to change the stock speakers though. Say if I go with the Dynaudio's, what size would you recommend (stock is 4" in the front and 6" in the back as far as I know). Is it possible to fit 6" in the front without changing the looks of the door panels? Or should I aim for 5.25"?
Also, I understand you would recommend to leave the stock Nakamichi amp and see how it works with the new speakers? What about the stock wiring then?
I'll try to find a shop where I can listen to some of the recommended speakers ... might have to take a trip to germany for that.
Once again, thanks for your efforts trying to make my f*%!ed up setup work. Sure appreciate it.
Please tell me you're joking about that sub needing an enclosure!!! It's installed as a free air, simply replacing the OEM sub. I hate the idea, but I guess it's really time to go and find another shop again.
Don't even know if it's possible to fit an enclosure under the rear deck? Anyone?
So, from what I understand, what I should do is to get the bass fixed (either an enclosure or maybe even a new sub that is intended to be used as a free air).
I'd still like to change the stock speakers though. Say if I go with the Dynaudio's, what size would you recommend (stock is 4" in the front and 6" in the back as far as I know). Is it possible to fit 6" in the front without changing the looks of the door panels? Or should I aim for 5.25"?
Also, I understand you would recommend to leave the stock Nakamichi amp and see how it works with the new speakers? What about the stock wiring then?
I'll try to find a shop where I can listen to some of the recommended speakers ... might have to take a trip to germany for that.
Once again, thanks for your efforts trying to make my f*%!ed up setup work. Sure appreciate it.
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08-03-02, 09:55 AM
#8
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Originally posted by stevie
Sorry but I can't upload the file as I only have it in html.
Here's the list (all the tests are from 1999 - 2000):
MB Quart QM 218.61Q - 73 points
Boston Pro Series 6.5 - 72 points
Boston Pro Series 6.4 - 69 points
Infinity XP Beta 1/6/2 - 66 points
MB Quart PSC 216 - 65 points
Dynaudio Sys. 240 MKII - 63 points
Rainbow CS 365 P Extr. - 61 points
Marathon MK 6R - 60 points
Take this as a starting point for auditioning. I would add Focal to the list and would place greater weight on the opinions on this forum than the Autohifi points ratings, because the people here have specific experience of how speakers work in a Lexus.
Should get Percy going, though -
Incidentally, they give the Rainbow Reference Line 260.30 top place on its own with 88 points! Comments, anyone?
Stevie
Sorry but I can't upload the file as I only have it in html.
Here's the list (all the tests are from 1999 - 2000):
MB Quart QM 218.61Q - 73 points
Boston Pro Series 6.5 - 72 points
Boston Pro Series 6.4 - 69 points
Infinity XP Beta 1/6/2 - 66 points
MB Quart PSC 216 - 65 points
Dynaudio Sys. 240 MKII - 63 points
Rainbow CS 365 P Extr. - 61 points
Marathon MK 6R - 60 points
Take this as a starting point for auditioning. I would add Focal to the list and would place greater weight on the opinions on this forum than the Autohifi points ratings, because the people here have specific experience of how speakers work in a Lexus.
Should get Percy going, though -
Incidentally, they give the Rainbow Reference Line 260.30 top place on its own with 88 points! Comments, anyone?
Stevie
There's a large format British magazine that tested the Dynaudio Sys 240 MK II's and gave them 5 stars. "A new reference" was one of the comments. MBQ didn't fare too high (Q series). Then there's a huge Japanese in year review that did an RTA testing - in car of course. Dyn got two thumbs up, MBQ Q series didn't get any thumbs up. They didn't test rainbow ref though.
Lots of variance between the mags!
Bottom line...do the homework and audition them yourself. You have to be the one that lives with them!
Percy
08-03-02, 10:27 AM
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Percy,
I thought that would get a prompt reply-
I have some experience with audio magazines and would never take their word for it. There's a lot of behind the scenes string-pulling - to put it mildly.
I'd echo your sentiments to audition as much as possible. And always take a CD with you that you're familiar with.
Stevie
I thought that would get a prompt reply-
I have some experience with audio magazines and would never take their word for it. There's a lot of behind the scenes string-pulling - to put it mildly.
I'd echo your sentiments to audition as much as possible. And always take a CD with you that you're familiar with.
Stevie
08-03-02, 10:57 AM
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Sorry, but the sub needs an enclosure. It won't work properly without it. You will not get a flat frequency response in the car; you will forever be fighting a losing battle to get a decent bass sound.
If the SC4 has the usual Lexus pods, you can fit up to 130 mm speakers without too much cutting. Even the small Dynaudios are a bit bigger than that.The standard driver in my GS is 4.5 inches.
Your best bet is probably to listen both to 5 inch and 6.5 inch speakers and pick the model you prefer. Then worry about how to install it. A good installer will be able to do a 'stealth' installation whatever size you chose. A five inch speaker does have the advantage that it will fit in the existing pods, which will cut down on the install cost considerably. I would therefore be tempted to go for a five inch speaker for the front doors. Be aware,however, that there are some very fine speakers available in 6.5 inch that you can't get in 5 inch - like the Dynaudios and Seas Lotus.
For the rears, go for five inch speakers. You don't need to spend as much on these, as they are not so critical for sound quality - it's the front doors that count.
Yes, I would also upgrade the wiring at the same time to a good quality speaker cable.
Stevie
If the SC4 has the usual Lexus pods, you can fit up to 130 mm speakers without too much cutting. Even the small Dynaudios are a bit bigger than that.The standard driver in my GS is 4.5 inches.
Your best bet is probably to listen both to 5 inch and 6.5 inch speakers and pick the model you prefer. Then worry about how to install it. A good installer will be able to do a 'stealth' installation whatever size you chose. A five inch speaker does have the advantage that it will fit in the existing pods, which will cut down on the install cost considerably. I would therefore be tempted to go for a five inch speaker for the front doors. Be aware,however, that there are some very fine speakers available in 6.5 inch that you can't get in 5 inch - like the Dynaudios and Seas Lotus.
For the rears, go for five inch speakers. You don't need to spend as much on these, as they are not so critical for sound quality - it's the front doors that count.
Yes, I would also upgrade the wiring at the same time to a good quality speaker cable.
Stevie
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