Krell versus Sony ES - Home High End vs Car Audio High End
01-11-02, 04:38 PM
#1
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Thread Starter
Krell versus Sony ES - Home High End vs Car Audio High End
Ok...so it's not a fair contest but it'll tell you where the "high end" is at regarding car audio. Sony's high end CDXC90 was the
guinea pig/challenger against the reknowned Krell KAV300cd. Not a standard Krell either as it's been modded with different
capacitors, op amps, resistors and power supply filtering. To give you an idea of how extensively this unit has been modded, it'll go
toe to toe with the Krell KPS25, a $20,000 cd player. If that isn't high end then I don't know what is!
Price MSRP for the Sony CDX C90 is $1200. With that you'll get a nice display, 20 bit Burr Brown PCM1702 D/A converters,
Variable Coefficient filtering (4 modes) and Analog Devices OP275 op amps. Rotary remote and another remote come with the
package. Literally the sound quality of the high end $8,000 XESZ50. Build quality is excellent for a car audio unit. 3 sets of pre
outs and the ability to use an outboard fiber optic linked processor. With the XDP4000x & C90 you LITERALLY have the
internals of the Z50 but only will spend 1/4th as much. Slick.
Price MSRP for the Krell KAV300CD is $3500, but that has been upped to $4250 a couple of years ago. For that price you get
the legendary build quality (overbuilt) of a Krell. Nearly 200 small signal transistors are used in the analog output board with
everything being a discrete component, with the exception of the op amps, D/A's and HDCD chip. That's for the analog board
only. The stock CD player sounded good. The modded player exceptional. After all, competing against the KPS25 is no small
feat. Mod parts include Black Gate capacitors, MultiCap RTX bypass caps, Burr Brown OPA627 op amps (considered some of
the finest) and an entire reworking of all the resistors to Holco parts. Nearly 300 parts were changed out.
The comparison was done with both units having Monster M1500 interconnects attached. A modded (of course) Denon
AVR2500 was used in stereo mode (no dolby processing). Final output was through a pair of Sennheiser HD580 headphones.
Switching was done through the Denon unit for a rapid A/B/A comparison.
Eagles-Hell Freezes over DVD transfer was the music selection for this comparison. It's still one of the best recorded LIVE
sources of music even though it dates back to '94. Up first was the C90. Track 1, Hotel California. For an automotive head unit,
this didn't sound too bad at all! Quite clear for a car audio piece. Applause for the opening for Hotel California was rendered
fairly well. Spanish guitar intro did good also. But once when the first bass note hit...hmmm....was that a bit of sloppiness?
Vocals were also good but they were missing something...
Rapid switchover to the Krell. NOW THIS ISN'T FAIR!!!! The opening applause had air, depth and BODY to it! Spanish
guitar intro - put it this way, you could hear and almost FEEL the strings stretching. First bass note and successive
notes...ABSOLUTE control with no overhang at all. Zero sloppiness. Music that has REAL dimension. Vocals also had the
same body to them with absolutely no grain or scratchy sound to them.
Switching over to the C90 again. Same track for a comparison. The applause sounds almost clincal and two dimensional in
comparison. The staging is good and so is the depth, but no BODY to it. Spanish guitar intro...none of the string "stretching" or
depth. First bass note and successive notes...yes, they were SLOPPY by comparison. Almost as if the image was muddy and
kinda slopped over. Vocals had a "grain" to them or a sort of raspy-ness. You'd have to listen kinda closely, but it IS there.
Advancing to the next selection on the C90. "Take it Easy" with Glenn Frey. The immediate crashing (first notes) of the strings,
then rapid strumming. It's rendered well on the C90 but once again the strings sounded clinical. Almost a sort of EDGE to them.
Once when Glenn starts singing, his voice didn't have the naturalness and ease.
Switchover. Krell up again. Same track. It's the same trouncing all over again. Body, depth, and I almost hate to use the
word...realism. The sounds and actions of the strings stretching were once again present, not as an almost hidden action, but
rather as a conscious and nearly tangible motion. Voicing is superb. No grain, no "forced" presentation.
Bouncing back to the C90. Final listen of "New York Minute". Don Henley's voice is very revealing of any system presentation
flaws. His voice is either rendered as slightly raspy and grainy with an "edge" to it or completely fluid with absolute control of
subtle nuances and shadings. The C90, for car audio use, is a superb unit, but it still doesn't render his voice as it should be. Once
when the quieter passages wind in, listen to the bell notes. For the C90, they sounded edgy, but quite acceptable for car audio
standards.
A rapid button press later, Krell was back in action. Henley's voice is completely fluid, though not with the same "mushy"
character as with a tube amp. (I've never heard of an "accurate" tube amp...they all sounded too sweet or mushy.) Bell notes
were polished and you can hear the overtones present after each note with plenty of decay. Ok...that's enough for now.
Switching off both units.
All the variables have been kept to an absolute minimum. The same type interconnects (matching pairs and lengths) were used as
well as the same amp and preamp for both units. Headphones provided final output since there is less variance. No room
dependency.
Verdict...Car audio still has a LONG way to go. OP275 op amps in the C90 are a good start, but they can't and won't match up to
the discrete output board of the Krell. It's AMAZING to hear actual "body" and involvement within the music itself. That's
something that car audio still has to catch up to. Even the extreme high end units of the Sony XESZ50 and the Alpine F#1 status
won't be able to compare. Score for the C90 would rate as a 5.2 out of 10. Krell would be the reference 10.
Now to modify the C90 to feed into the Krell analog board. Extremely unfair...but I'm not in competition.
Percy
guinea pig/challenger against the reknowned Krell KAV300cd. Not a standard Krell either as it's been modded with different
capacitors, op amps, resistors and power supply filtering. To give you an idea of how extensively this unit has been modded, it'll go
toe to toe with the Krell KPS25, a $20,000 cd player. If that isn't high end then I don't know what is!
Price MSRP for the Sony CDX C90 is $1200. With that you'll get a nice display, 20 bit Burr Brown PCM1702 D/A converters,
Variable Coefficient filtering (4 modes) and Analog Devices OP275 op amps. Rotary remote and another remote come with the
package. Literally the sound quality of the high end $8,000 XESZ50. Build quality is excellent for a car audio unit. 3 sets of pre
outs and the ability to use an outboard fiber optic linked processor. With the XDP4000x & C90 you LITERALLY have the
internals of the Z50 but only will spend 1/4th as much. Slick.
Price MSRP for the Krell KAV300CD is $3500, but that has been upped to $4250 a couple of years ago. For that price you get
the legendary build quality (overbuilt) of a Krell. Nearly 200 small signal transistors are used in the analog output board with
everything being a discrete component, with the exception of the op amps, D/A's and HDCD chip. That's for the analog board
only. The stock CD player sounded good. The modded player exceptional. After all, competing against the KPS25 is no small
feat. Mod parts include Black Gate capacitors, MultiCap RTX bypass caps, Burr Brown OPA627 op amps (considered some of
the finest) and an entire reworking of all the resistors to Holco parts. Nearly 300 parts were changed out.
The comparison was done with both units having Monster M1500 interconnects attached. A modded (of course) Denon
AVR2500 was used in stereo mode (no dolby processing). Final output was through a pair of Sennheiser HD580 headphones.
Switching was done through the Denon unit for a rapid A/B/A comparison.
Eagles-Hell Freezes over DVD transfer was the music selection for this comparison. It's still one of the best recorded LIVE
sources of music even though it dates back to '94. Up first was the C90. Track 1, Hotel California. For an automotive head unit,
this didn't sound too bad at all! Quite clear for a car audio piece. Applause for the opening for Hotel California was rendered
fairly well. Spanish guitar intro did good also. But once when the first bass note hit...hmmm....was that a bit of sloppiness?
Vocals were also good but they were missing something...
Rapid switchover to the Krell. NOW THIS ISN'T FAIR!!!! The opening applause had air, depth and BODY to it! Spanish
guitar intro - put it this way, you could hear and almost FEEL the strings stretching. First bass note and successive
notes...ABSOLUTE control with no overhang at all. Zero sloppiness. Music that has REAL dimension. Vocals also had the
same body to them with absolutely no grain or scratchy sound to them.
Switching over to the C90 again. Same track for a comparison. The applause sounds almost clincal and two dimensional in
comparison. The staging is good and so is the depth, but no BODY to it. Spanish guitar intro...none of the string "stretching" or
depth. First bass note and successive notes...yes, they were SLOPPY by comparison. Almost as if the image was muddy and
kinda slopped over. Vocals had a "grain" to them or a sort of raspy-ness. You'd have to listen kinda closely, but it IS there.
Advancing to the next selection on the C90. "Take it Easy" with Glenn Frey. The immediate crashing (first notes) of the strings,
then rapid strumming. It's rendered well on the C90 but once again the strings sounded clinical. Almost a sort of EDGE to them.
Once when Glenn starts singing, his voice didn't have the naturalness and ease.
Switchover. Krell up again. Same track. It's the same trouncing all over again. Body, depth, and I almost hate to use the
word...realism. The sounds and actions of the strings stretching were once again present, not as an almost hidden action, but
rather as a conscious and nearly tangible motion. Voicing is superb. No grain, no "forced" presentation.
Bouncing back to the C90. Final listen of "New York Minute". Don Henley's voice is very revealing of any system presentation
flaws. His voice is either rendered as slightly raspy and grainy with an "edge" to it or completely fluid with absolute control of
subtle nuances and shadings. The C90, for car audio use, is a superb unit, but it still doesn't render his voice as it should be. Once
when the quieter passages wind in, listen to the bell notes. For the C90, they sounded edgy, but quite acceptable for car audio
standards.
A rapid button press later, Krell was back in action. Henley's voice is completely fluid, though not with the same "mushy"
character as with a tube amp. (I've never heard of an "accurate" tube amp...they all sounded too sweet or mushy.) Bell notes
were polished and you can hear the overtones present after each note with plenty of decay. Ok...that's enough for now.
Switching off both units.
All the variables have been kept to an absolute minimum. The same type interconnects (matching pairs and lengths) were used as
well as the same amp and preamp for both units. Headphones provided final output since there is less variance. No room
dependency.
Verdict...Car audio still has a LONG way to go. OP275 op amps in the C90 are a good start, but they can't and won't match up to
the discrete output board of the Krell. It's AMAZING to hear actual "body" and involvement within the music itself. That's
something that car audio still has to catch up to. Even the extreme high end units of the Sony XESZ50 and the Alpine F#1 status
won't be able to compare. Score for the C90 would rate as a 5.2 out of 10. Krell would be the reference 10.
Now to modify the C90 to feed into the Krell analog board. Extremely unfair...but I'm not in competition.
Percy
01-12-02, 11:08 AM
#2
Search Function Inc.
Interesting. Although I have never been a fan of Sony, the ES line is somewhat different. What really interests me is how would Nakamichi CD700 would hold up against the Krell unit.
I will be using my old Nak unit with Image Dynamics DAC. That thing is old and rare but I might be able to get my hands on one.
I will be using my old Nak unit with Image Dynamics DAC. That thing is old and rare but I might be able to get my hands on one.
01-12-02, 12:32 PM
#3
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Thread Starter
Retro,
The Sony XESZ50 in full 15,000 dollar mode wouldn't even hold up to the Krell nor would the Alpine F#1, both of which I have listened to. There just isn't enough technology advancement (jitter reduction, high end op amps, filtering caps, etc) in the car audio field just yet. That's why I'm adapting a Krell analog board to be the output stage. Should be fun.
Percy
The Sony XESZ50 in full 15,000 dollar mode wouldn't even hold up to the Krell nor would the Alpine F#1, both of which I have listened to. There just isn't enough technology advancement (jitter reduction, high end op amps, filtering caps, etc) in the car audio field just yet. That's why I'm adapting a Krell analog board to be the output stage. Should be fun.
Percy
01-14-02, 04:22 AM
#5
Search Function Inc.
Home audio is getting big in car audio field. Peeps learn how to do good installs and how to image speakers and that is a must with home audio speakers. I am still not a believer in a car theatre since the environment is too hostile for that.
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