wiring, ohms and power, dclass, etc etc
12-15-01, 12:53 PM
#1
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: ca
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wiring, ohms and power, dclass, etc etc
while im waiting for percy to finish his awesome book (going to read that before i begin my install), there were some things on my mind.
im going to get the dynaudio speakers. now these are 4 ohms right? and if i hook them up parallel it would go down to 2 ohms, and i could get more power from the amp to them. if i was to do this, i would have to hook up the woofers in parallel and the tweeters in parallel..is it bad if you hooked up the woofer and tweeter in parallel with each other? and is it wise to hook them up in parallel even if the speakers match? im assuming it would increase the distortion?
the wiring would get pretty crazy also if you tried to hook up the left and right woofer in parallel.
now lets say we keep it at 4 ohms. would the best thing to do is get a 4 channel amp and use each channel for the front mids and tweets? and then another 2 channel amp for the rear mids? (not using tweeters in the back). then another amp for the sub?
what do people do that run their whole system off one 5 channel amp? do they use 1 channel for 2 speakers?
also, the gains on an amp control all the channels right? or do they have seperate gains per channel?
also, is it recommended to get a dclass amp for the sub in a SQ system? whats a good one out there? the only reason im looking into this is because it would ease up on the power a little.
and also, they say not to run the amp power cable next to the speaker wires and rca cable. so im thinking running the rca on the left, and the power cable on the right of the car. but there are still going to be speaker cables on the right of the car. watcha do in this situation?
also, i hear that you need to use relays for hooking up neon lights. could u gimme a quick general description on what they are and how they are used.
i know its a lot of random questions, but if you guys could answer the ones u could one at a time, id greatly appreciate it. these are just questions that have been floating around in my head.
thanks in advance.
im going to get the dynaudio speakers. now these are 4 ohms right? and if i hook them up parallel it would go down to 2 ohms, and i could get more power from the amp to them. if i was to do this, i would have to hook up the woofers in parallel and the tweeters in parallel..is it bad if you hooked up the woofer and tweeter in parallel with each other? and is it wise to hook them up in parallel even if the speakers match? im assuming it would increase the distortion?
the wiring would get pretty crazy also if you tried to hook up the left and right woofer in parallel.
now lets say we keep it at 4 ohms. would the best thing to do is get a 4 channel amp and use each channel for the front mids and tweets? and then another 2 channel amp for the rear mids? (not using tweeters in the back). then another amp for the sub?
what do people do that run their whole system off one 5 channel amp? do they use 1 channel for 2 speakers?
also, the gains on an amp control all the channels right? or do they have seperate gains per channel?
also, is it recommended to get a dclass amp for the sub in a SQ system? whats a good one out there? the only reason im looking into this is because it would ease up on the power a little.
and also, they say not to run the amp power cable next to the speaker wires and rca cable. so im thinking running the rca on the left, and the power cable on the right of the car. but there are still going to be speaker cables on the right of the car. watcha do in this situation?
also, i hear that you need to use relays for hooking up neon lights. could u gimme a quick general description on what they are and how they are used.
i know its a lot of random questions, but if you guys could answer the ones u could one at a time, id greatly appreciate it. these are just questions that have been floating around in my head.
thanks in advance.
12-15-01, 01:41 PM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
Wow!!
Man, my head hurts just from looking at all the questions!!
Better let Percy tackle the technical & Dyn questions but I'll throw out what little info I've learned over the years. About the amps - it can depend on whether U're gonna rely on the built-in crossovers with the amp or use the more accurate passive X-over included with the components ( guess U can tell which is MY preferred method!
). I've run my Focal kicks using both a 2 channel & later a 4 channel amp and found that the 4 channel amp gave me more flexibility in tuning the system because of separate gain controls ( 1 per pair of channels ). The component x-overs usually have smoother rolloffs/slopes as well so unless U have some form of processing/equalization, I'd go with the x-over that comes with the components ( especially the DynAudio piece ). All my stuff runs thru the Symmetry so I have a different scenario. Currently I have a similar setup U described but with one more amp - a 4 channel amp running my kicks; another 4 channel running the A-pillar tweets & front door midbasses; a 2 channel on the rear door midbasses & another 2 channel on the subs. Personally, I'd just keep everything 4 ohm for simplicity - don't believe much in series/parallel wiring ideas until I get to the subwoofer systems. True, an amp makes more power into a lower ohm load but also tends to make the additional distortion that U mentioned. Even put an oscilloscope on an a bench tested amp to see the difference that a 2 ohm stereo load made compared to a 4 ohm mono load ( same TOTAL impedance load & thus the same power capability ) & the single 4 ohm load generated a smoother sine wave ( using pink noise ). This was YEARS ago in a college lab ( electrical engineering ) so don't ask me to remember any more details! 
A 5 channel amp is designed to run a pair of components ( on the first 4 channels ) & usually has a dedicated mono subwoofer output. The better ones have 2 power supplies within the amp itself - 1 for each system. The first generation multi-channel amps used a single power supply & the power demands of the subwoofer "stole" power from the other channels ( when necessary ). Not as up on amp design as I used to be but a Class D or BD amp is digital & therefore more efficient ( less power lost thru heat ). For SQ a McIntosh would be hard to beat but I've heard a/d/s & even the older Zapco amps perform OK. Retro likes Arc Audio & they seemed to do well in competition this past year. Wouldn't worry too much about the power & speaker wires being close to each other as long as they don't touch & U use well jacketed ones. I've got the same situation with the power wire running down the passenger's side ( under the edge of the carpet as the 0 awg won't fit under the threshold sills so I ran my speaker wires there ). Tends to be a larger noise problem when U run the RCA's & power wires together. Not a big neon expert - had a friend hook up my enclosure neon but I know that there's a simple relay that controls it via my Viper remote. Don't think it's brain surgery - simple 2 wire hookup, I believe. Well, I have a brain cramp right now :eek: so I hope this helps ya more than confuses U!! Just sent Master Percy some negatives for the book & am starting on some enclosure info. Man, I haven't written this much since college!!
Better let Percy tackle the technical & Dyn questions but I'll throw out what little info I've learned over the years. About the amps - it can depend on whether U're gonna rely on the built-in crossovers with the amp or use the more accurate passive X-over included with the components ( guess U can tell which is MY preferred method! ). I've run my Focal kicks using both a 2 channel & later a 4 channel amp and found that the 4 channel amp gave me more flexibility in tuning the system because of separate gain controls ( 1 per pair of channels ). The component x-overs usually have smoother rolloffs/slopes as well so unless U have some form of processing/equalization, I'd go with the x-over that comes with the components ( especially the DynAudio piece ). All my stuff runs thru the Symmetry so I have a different scenario. Currently I have a similar setup U described but with one more amp - a 4 channel amp running my kicks; another 4 channel running the A-pillar tweets & front door midbasses; a 2 channel on the rear door midbasses & another 2 channel on the subs. Personally, I'd just keep everything 4 ohm for simplicity - don't believe much in series/parallel wiring ideas until I get to the subwoofer systems. True, an amp makes more power into a lower ohm load but also tends to make the additional distortion that U mentioned. Even put an oscilloscope on an a bench tested amp to see the difference that a 2 ohm stereo load made compared to a 4 ohm mono load ( same TOTAL impedance load & thus the same power capability ) & the single 4 ohm load generated a smoother sine wave ( using pink noise ). This was YEARS ago in a college lab ( electrical engineering ) so don't ask me to remember any more details! A 5 channel amp is designed to run a pair of components ( on the first 4 channels ) & usually has a dedicated mono subwoofer output. The better ones have 2 power supplies within the amp itself - 1 for each system. The first generation multi-channel amps used a single power supply & the power demands of the subwoofer "stole" power from the other channels ( when necessary ). Not as up on amp design as I used to be but a Class D or BD amp is digital & therefore more efficient ( less power lost thru heat ). For SQ a McIntosh would be hard to beat but I've heard a/d/s & even the older Zapco amps perform OK. Retro likes Arc Audio & they seemed to do well in competition this past year. Wouldn't worry too much about the power & speaker wires being close to each other as long as they don't touch & U use well jacketed ones. I've got the same situation with the power wire running down the passenger's side ( under the edge of the carpet as the 0 awg won't fit under the threshold sills so I ran my speaker wires there ). Tends to be a larger noise problem when U run the RCA's & power wires together. Not a big neon expert - had a friend hook up my enclosure neon but I know that there's a simple relay that controls it via my Viper remote. Don't think it's brain surgery - simple 2 wire hookup, I believe. Well, I have a brain cramp right now :eek: so I hope this helps ya more than confuses U!! Just sent Master Percy some negatives for the book & am starting on some enclosure info. Man, I haven't written this much since college!!
12-15-01, 03:09 PM
#3
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Geez Gene! You'd better rest before carpel tunnel syndrome or RSI sets in!
Fierce one...
The Dyns are 4 ohms. How many speakers are you planning on hooking up in parallel? Be SURE that your amp can handle this over long periods of time, otherwise you're just asking for trouble. The Mc's are 2 ohm TOLLERANT, but they won't last very long and WILL have a shortened life span. McIntosh's lab has confirmed this. That's if you're running Mc's though.
It is VERY VERY VERY bad to hook up the tweeter and woofer directly parallel with each other (with no xover). If you look inside Dyn's crossover (or any other crossover) you'll find that they usually have independent paths and associated components. Yes, they're hooked up in parallel up to a certain point...then they break off on their own seperate ways with the associated crossover components.
There are such things as TOO MANY speakers in a system. Back in the early 80's, the more ways (place 4 way coax and 3 way coax picture here with coax speakers EVERYWHERE) the more difficult it will be to produce a convincing soundstage. Plus it's a NASTY invitation for sound cancellation. 3 way seperates are already difficult enough. You have to invert the midrange phase and then mess around with the settings from there. Keep it simple. Two way system.
The only other method that I would recommend would be the D'Appolitto configuration. Basically looks like this...
X.X X being the woofer and the "." being the tweeter. The only thing is that you have to custom fabricate a 6db/oct or 18db/oct crossover as the stock Dyn 12db/oct (or any other "even" order crossover) won't cut it. Something to do with phasing and lobing of the driver. Now if you can squeeze this in the car (unlikely), then you'll have exceptionally wide soundstaging. Woofers are wired in parallel with each other after the crossover (they're seeing the same signal) and the tweeter has an independent path. I've only seen this in a couple of competition cars and the results were fairly good. Only thing is that they had to build out the door panel ALOT which made everything look bulky. I'd still stick with the simple 2 way.
Left woofer and right woofer together in parallel? NO. You'll short out and possibly DESTROY the amp. Reason...the least resistance is the wiring leading to the speakers. Hook up the left channel to the right channel outputs. The amp won't even CARE to see the 4 ohms of the speaker...it has a nice ZERO ohm load on which to short out and destroy itself (amp) on! Don't do it. Or if you do, be prepared for alot of smoke and possibly a nasty fire.
"now lets say we keep it at 4 ohms. would the best thing to do is get a 4 channel amp and use each channel for the front mids and tweets? and then another 2 channel amp for the rear mids? (not using tweeters in the back). then another amp for the sub? "
As long as you have a crossover for each driver, then you're fine on doing it this way. More flexibility. Rarely does one ever run a midwoofer full range, but you can do it with the Dyns. They're purposely designed to roll off at 12db/oct after 4khz.
5 channel amp, one set of speakers for each channel. Yep. You got it.
On the better amps, there are seperate gains for EACH individual channel. Mc being one of them.
NEVER run the power cable on top of the interconnects. With speaker wire you can kinda get away with it, but NEVER on top of the interconnects. Reason is that interconnects have much lower voltage and current, thus noise is more easily induced with the power cable run. With speaker wire, it's a much higher voltage and current so you can get away with it.
Relays. Just uses a low voltage for switching while having an independent path that will handle the large current. Neon lights?!?!? They're outlawed around here in Chicago.
Percy
Fierce one...
The Dyns are 4 ohms. How many speakers are you planning on hooking up in parallel? Be SURE that your amp can handle this over long periods of time, otherwise you're just asking for trouble. The Mc's are 2 ohm TOLLERANT, but they won't last very long and WILL have a shortened life span. McIntosh's lab has confirmed this. That's if you're running Mc's though.
It is VERY VERY VERY bad to hook up the tweeter and woofer directly parallel with each other (with no xover). If you look inside Dyn's crossover (or any other crossover) you'll find that they usually have independent paths and associated components. Yes, they're hooked up in parallel up to a certain point...then they break off on their own seperate ways with the associated crossover components.
There are such things as TOO MANY speakers in a system. Back in the early 80's, the more ways (place 4 way coax and 3 way coax picture here with coax speakers EVERYWHERE) the more difficult it will be to produce a convincing soundstage. Plus it's a NASTY invitation for sound cancellation. 3 way seperates are already difficult enough. You have to invert the midrange phase and then mess around with the settings from there. Keep it simple. Two way system.
The only other method that I would recommend would be the D'Appolitto configuration. Basically looks like this...
X.X X being the woofer and the "." being the tweeter. The only thing is that you have to custom fabricate a 6db/oct or 18db/oct crossover as the stock Dyn 12db/oct (or any other "even" order crossover) won't cut it. Something to do with phasing and lobing of the driver. Now if you can squeeze this in the car (unlikely), then you'll have exceptionally wide soundstaging. Woofers are wired in parallel with each other after the crossover (they're seeing the same signal) and the tweeter has an independent path. I've only seen this in a couple of competition cars and the results were fairly good. Only thing is that they had to build out the door panel ALOT which made everything look bulky. I'd still stick with the simple 2 way.
Left woofer and right woofer together in parallel? NO. You'll short out and possibly DESTROY the amp. Reason...the least resistance is the wiring leading to the speakers. Hook up the left channel to the right channel outputs. The amp won't even CARE to see the 4 ohms of the speaker...it has a nice ZERO ohm load on which to short out and destroy itself (amp) on! Don't do it. Or if you do, be prepared for alot of smoke and possibly a nasty fire.
"now lets say we keep it at 4 ohms. would the best thing to do is get a 4 channel amp and use each channel for the front mids and tweets? and then another 2 channel amp for the rear mids? (not using tweeters in the back). then another amp for the sub? "
As long as you have a crossover for each driver, then you're fine on doing it this way. More flexibility. Rarely does one ever run a midwoofer full range, but you can do it with the Dyns. They're purposely designed to roll off at 12db/oct after 4khz.
5 channel amp, one set of speakers for each channel. Yep. You got it.
On the better amps, there are seperate gains for EACH individual channel. Mc being one of them.
NEVER run the power cable on top of the interconnects. With speaker wire you can kinda get away with it, but NEVER on top of the interconnects. Reason is that interconnects have much lower voltage and current, thus noise is more easily induced with the power cable run. With speaker wire, it's a much higher voltage and current so you can get away with it.
Relays. Just uses a low voltage for switching while having an independent path that will handle the large current. Neon lights?!?!? They're outlawed around here in Chicago.
Percy
12-15-01, 04:02 PM
#4
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: ca
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you guys are awesome!
alright its going to get expensive trying to power these speakers. since im going system240 in front, and mw160 in rear, should i just send out 100 watts to each speaker, for a total of 600 watts? im afraid that 150 watts a speaker would be much better and i wanna do it right the first time. my head unit will not have a built in amp. or maybe 150 watts to the front, and 100 to the rear since you guys recommend the rears not being as loud anyways..but theres no amps out there with 150 watt per channel..its either 100 or 200 watts...when you say the rear should be tuned so its not as loud as the front, would u do this by the gains on the amp?
also, as for 2-way and 3-way systems...2-way means mid and tweeter..is 3way mid, tweeter, and subwoofer?...or do they mean mid,tweeter, and woofer?
also, im going sealed box and im shooting it straight through the stock sub hole. would it be ok if i used a 12'' sub without modyfing the size of the hole on the rear panel? im saying this because im thinking some of the sound will be reflected by the panel, since the hole is only 10'' while the sub is 12''.
ive heard idq is better than w3 when it comes to SQ. it also seems like it could handle more power. any recommendations between these two?
i heard a w0 in a friends car and i thought the quality of the sound wasnt all that good. it wasnt a rich sound. (rich is the only adjective i could think of)...im assuming the w3's will have a richer sound?
also, i heard the dei dclass amp is awesome. think it would hurt my SQ if i used this dclass amp for my sub?
again, thanks for all your help.
OMG after posting this, i just realized how long it was..again. i got to learn to minimize the size of my posts..i think were going to win a record per average post size on this topic -=z also, i wanted to thank you guys again, for reading all this and writing back =)
alright its going to get expensive trying to power these speakers. since im going system240 in front, and mw160 in rear, should i just send out 100 watts to each speaker, for a total of 600 watts? im afraid that 150 watts a speaker would be much better and i wanna do it right the first time. my head unit will not have a built in amp. or maybe 150 watts to the front, and 100 to the rear since you guys recommend the rears not being as loud anyways..but theres no amps out there with 150 watt per channel..its either 100 or 200 watts...when you say the rear should be tuned so its not as loud as the front, would u do this by the gains on the amp?
also, as for 2-way and 3-way systems...2-way means mid and tweeter..is 3way mid, tweeter, and subwoofer?...or do they mean mid,tweeter, and woofer?
also, im going sealed box and im shooting it straight through the stock sub hole. would it be ok if i used a 12'' sub without modyfing the size of the hole on the rear panel? im saying this because im thinking some of the sound will be reflected by the panel, since the hole is only 10'' while the sub is 12''.
ive heard idq is better than w3 when it comes to SQ. it also seems like it could handle more power. any recommendations between these two?
i heard a w0 in a friends car and i thought the quality of the sound wasnt all that good. it wasnt a rich sound. (rich is the only adjective i could think of)...im assuming the w3's will have a richer sound?
also, i heard the dei dclass amp is awesome. think it would hurt my SQ if i used this dclass amp for my sub?
again, thanks for all your help.
OMG after posting this, i just realized how long it was..again. i got to learn to minimize the size of my posts..i think were going to win a record per average post size on this topic -=z also, i wanted to thank you guys again, for reading all this and writing back =)
Last edited by fierce gs; 12-15-01 at 04:05 PM.
12-15-01, 08:32 PM
#5
Lexus Test Driver
Amp Power
Fierce - Amplifier power buys U clarity, not volume. Just because U may only set things up to shoot 150 wrms to the front speakers & 100 wrms to the rears doesn't mean that the rears will naturally be quieter. The fronts will just be cleaner sounding & with much less distortion/clipping when U crank things up. As we've said before - this clipping/distortion will killl a speaker faster than excessive power unless U want to TRY & destroy a tweeter by running 500 watts thru it but even the Focal XPERT T3X supertweeter can handle that much in short bursts. However, doesn't the McIntosh MCC444 make 110 x 4 into 4 ohms ( & with an awesome .005% THD!!:eek: ). The Dyns R extremely efficient so while 110 watts per speaker doesn't seem like much, those speakers will make the most of it. U wouldn't want to use the amplifier in a head unit as it may be called "High Power" ( sure!! ) but that's usually 40 wrms at best & not suitable for a true SQ system, IMO. Yes, U can set your gain for the rear components down to attenuate things. Most people think of the gain as a volume control but it's actually designed to balance the signal between different amp/speaker combos within a car ( not really a true "volume" control but maybe it's easier for non-audiophiles to think of it that way - I myself did so in my early audio years! ). As far as the vernacular used in defining 2-way ( coaxial ) & 3-way ( triaxial ) speakers, that can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer & is generally based on the frequency range of the speakers. For example, Focal lists their 3-way model 165 components as "tweeter, midrange & midbass" ( frequency range 50Hz - 20kHz ) while Diamond Audio calls their S6.0mx3 HEX component set a "tweeter, midrange & woofer" ( 40Hz - 22kHz ). I'd open the sub hole up to the full diameter of the 12" to prevent any sound cancellation, too. I don't have any ID experience but have used JL for years & will stand behind the W3. I'm not saying it's better than the ID ( I'm sure Retro will vouch for his beloved ID - we all have our brand loyalties ( Percy goes for DynAudio & I'm a Focal fan ) ) but I prefer to share only opinions on equipment for which I have experience or know extremely well. DON'T consider the W0 for anything other than maybe an ashtray - what WAS JL thinking when they designed that as an "entry level" woofer?? They should have just kept the W1 as the lower-line sub, IMO & IME. W0's won't hold up under any serious use & really aren't that accurate. The IDQ subs WILL handle more power than the W3 series & even play a little lower so I'm sure they're excellent. However, don't confuse higher power handling capability with tonal accuracy ( it's true but only up to a certain point ). A higher power rating generally means better build quality but also can mean a larger magnet structure which, in turn, requires more power to function as designed ( begins to bring efficiency into play ). An example of this is the MTX RFL 152 sub. It'll handle 2000 wrms & 4000 watts peak:eek: but the damn thing weighs 56# & sounds like crap, IMO but will generate some serious pressure. Not real high on Class D & BD amps for SQ - they seem to trade off better efficiency for high THD. The DEI 1100d shows .5% into 4 ohms; .7% into 2 ohms & .9% into a 1 ohm load. I know that anything below 1% is considered inaudible but those R pretty high ( especially when compared to the Mac amp I listed above ). These digital amps tend to yield themselves better to SPL - actually, SOME distortion will help your SPL reading!:eek: Might want to reconsider if SQ is that important to you - just MY .02, though. Choose well & keep asking questions. Man, I need a nap now!! 
) but that's usually 40 wrms at best & not suitable for a true SQ system, IMO. Yes, U can set your gain for the rear components down to attenuate things. Most people think of the gain as a volume control but it's actually designed to balance the signal between different amp/speaker combos within a car ( not really a true "volume" control but maybe it's easier for non-audiophiles to think of it that way - I myself did so in my early audio years! ). As far as the vernacular used in defining 2-way ( coaxial ) & 3-way ( triaxial ) speakers, that can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer & is generally based on the frequency range of the speakers. For example, Focal lists their 3-way model 165 components as "tweeter, midrange & midbass" ( frequency range 50Hz - 20kHz ) while Diamond Audio calls their S6.0mx3 HEX component set a "tweeter, midrange & woofer" ( 40Hz - 22kHz ). I'd open the sub hole up to the full diameter of the 12" to prevent any sound cancellation, too. I don't have any ID experience but have used JL for years & will stand behind the W3. I'm not saying it's better than the ID ( I'm sure Retro will vouch for his beloved ID - we all have our brand loyalties ( Percy goes for DynAudio & I'm a Focal fan ) ) but I prefer to share only opinions on equipment for which I have experience or know extremely well. DON'T consider the W0 for anything other than maybe an ashtray - what WAS JL thinking when they designed that as an "entry level" woofer?? They should have just kept the W1 as the lower-line sub, IMO & IME. W0's won't hold up under any serious use & really aren't that accurate. The IDQ subs WILL handle more power than the W3 series & even play a little lower so I'm sure they're excellent. However, don't confuse higher power handling capability with tonal accuracy ( it's true but only up to a certain point ). A higher power rating generally means better build quality but also can mean a larger magnet structure which, in turn, requires more power to function as designed ( begins to bring efficiency into play ). An example of this is the MTX RFL 152 sub. It'll handle 2000 wrms & 4000 watts peak:eek: but the damn thing weighs 56# & sounds like crap, IMO but will generate some serious pressure. Not real high on Class D & BD amps for SQ - they seem to trade off better efficiency for high THD. The DEI 1100d shows .5% into 4 ohms; .7% into 2 ohms & .9% into a 1 ohm load. I know that anything below 1% is considered inaudible but those R pretty high ( especially when compared to the Mac amp I listed above ). These digital amps tend to yield themselves better to SPL - actually, SOME distortion will help your SPL reading!:eek: Might want to reconsider if SQ is that important to you - just MY .02, though. Choose well & keep asking questions. Man, I need a nap now!!
12-15-01, 09:30 PM
#6
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: ca
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Amp Power
Just because U may only set things up to shoot 150 wrms to the front speakers & 100 wrms to the rears doesn't mean that the rears will naturally be quieter. The fronts will just be cleaner sounding & with much less distortion/clipping when U crank things up.
also, i would never intend to use a dclass amp for anything other than the sub..also, i hear the distortion isnt all that bad on a sub since its lower frequency or something..??
would it be wise to buy an amp used? im just wondering if there could be any damage done to them without noticing it in the short term.
and one last thing......about cutting out the hole to a 12 inch diameter..so the whole 12 inches of the sub emmites sound (or sine waves would be better terminology i guess). i dont like the idea of cuttin that permanent panel ;z
after the answers to this post, i dont think ill have many more questions for a while..thanks again for your help. and sorry if i caused any signs of carpal tunnel syndrome or drowsiness =). again, i really appreciate all the help from you guys. im picking this stuff up pretty quickly, and i cant wait to begin my install.
btw. percy..i totaly agree with you on mb quartz..i heard a set of them the other day and they were real harsh on my ears.
12-15-01, 09:56 PM
#7
Moderator - Electronics Forum
fierce,
You'll get a kick out of the stuff I'm saying about MBQ's top line Q series. Even have the graphs included in the book. At 10khz, they're some 10db(!) higher than the 1khz. MBQ rates their speakers at a very sloppy +/-12db. Industry standard is supposed to be +/- 3db. But, once again this is a numbers game to them. One of the technicians at MBQ agreed with me completely about their MBQ speakers. That's how I got a hold of the graphs and distortion charts. Otherwise, it's not published info. I'll even leave the fax number to Obreiheim, Germany on there. The real deal.
The worlds most high end STUDIO monitor is none other than Dynaudio. But this is their Acoustic lineup and instead of going through some 85 checks and inspections for their drivers, the acoustic line (studio monitors) go through 100 different quality checks. That's ALOT! Tells you that Dynaudio is serious about everything they make. Oh yeah, MBQ DOES NOT make their own cones. They have to outsource them and have a company make them to spec. Kurt Mueller cones? Something with that name comes to mind.
Anyways, I'll put more about MBQ in the book.
Percy
You'll get a kick out of the stuff I'm saying about MBQ's top line Q series. Even have the graphs included in the book. At 10khz, they're some 10db(!) higher than the 1khz. MBQ rates their speakers at a very sloppy +/-12db. Industry standard is supposed to be +/- 3db. But, once again this is a numbers game to them. One of the technicians at MBQ agreed with me completely about their MBQ speakers. That's how I got a hold of the graphs and distortion charts. Otherwise, it's not published info. I'll even leave the fax number to Obreiheim, Germany on there. The real deal.
The worlds most high end STUDIO monitor is none other than Dynaudio. But this is their Acoustic lineup and instead of going through some 85 checks and inspections for their drivers, the acoustic line (studio monitors) go through 100 different quality checks. That's ALOT! Tells you that Dynaudio is serious about everything they make. Oh yeah, MBQ DOES NOT make their own cones. They have to outsource them and have a company make them to spec. Kurt Mueller cones? Something with that name comes to mind.
Anyways, I'll put more about MBQ in the book.
Percy
Trending Topics
12-16-01, 05:06 AM
#8
Lexus Test Driver
Gains
Balance, Daniel-San, balance!! Sorry - just watched "Karate Kid" with MY kid & that was fresh on my feeble little mind! Yes, that's kinda the point I was aiming at when I said that the gain was to used to "balance" the signals. A fader's just a balance control between front & back instead of side to side anyway. U're correct that it's more difficult to hear distortion from a subwoofer ( they're more forgiving from the frequency angle & the larger surface area of the cone gives ( literally ) for some extra leeway ). They'll tend to "fart" when overpower/distorted but if ya get out of the power as soon as ya hear this, the sub will survive ( unlike a tweeter that will have a tendency to die ). I haven't had any luck purchasing used "powered" automobile electronics. Percy & I discussed this & the variences in different auto voltage systems can screw things up. For example, the voltage system in a foreign car tends to be cleaner than that of a domestic & even though an amp is an inanimate object, they have a tendency to "burn in" their circuitry based on the first voltage system in which they're used. Take the amp out of a car it's been used in for awhile & place it in a different one & SOMETIMES the DC power supply change messes things up. Speakers R different - their power supply's cleaned up AFTER the amp so those will be OK used ( unless abused thru distortion ). Again, this is just MY opinion & experience - if ya can find a good deal on an amp ( & maybe know the owner & how it was used ), go for it. I picked up a small amount of pressure when I opened up the rear deck to accommodate my dual 12's ( plus reduced some rattles ) but since yours will be a true SQ system, U probably won't be playing the subs THAT loud & the slight size difference shouldn't make too much difference. Try it as is & U can always open things up later if necessary. Good luck!
Sorry - just watched "Karate Kid" with MY kid & that was fresh on my feeble little mind! Yes, that's kinda the point I was aiming at when I said that the gain was to used to "balance" the signals. A fader's just a balance control between front & back instead of side to side anyway. U're correct that it's more difficult to hear distortion from a subwoofer ( they're more forgiving from the frequency angle & the larger surface area of the cone gives ( literally ) for some extra leeway ). They'll tend to "fart" when overpower/distorted but if ya get out of the power as soon as ya hear this, the sub will survive ( unlike a tweeter that will have a tendency to die ). I haven't had any luck purchasing used "powered" automobile electronics. Percy & I discussed this & the variences in different auto voltage systems can screw things up. For example, the voltage system in a foreign car tends to be cleaner than that of a domestic & even though an amp is an inanimate object, they have a tendency to "burn in" their circuitry based on the first voltage system in which they're used. Take the amp out of a car it's been used in for awhile & place it in a different one & SOMETIMES the DC power supply change messes things up. Speakers R different - their power supply's cleaned up AFTER the amp so those will be OK used ( unless abused thru distortion ). Again, this is just MY opinion & experience - if ya can find a good deal on an amp ( & maybe know the owner & how it was used ), go for it. I picked up a small amount of pressure when I opened up the rear deck to accommodate my dual 12's ( plus reduced some rattles ) but since yours will be a true SQ system, U probably won't be playing the subs THAT loud & the slight size difference shouldn't make too much difference. Try it as is & U can always open things up later if necessary. Good luck!
12-16-01, 09:34 AM
#9
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: ca
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanx. well im pretty much set now. i think the mc's are too expensive for my budget tho. i think im going to go with ppi. i could get a ppi amp with 4x125w for the front for under 700. so i think thats my best bet.
well i have finals until thursday, and then a whole 2 weeks of freedom! hows the book comming along? what would u estimate its release date to be?
do u also have a section in there on the best way to get the wiring through ur backwall or backfire, or whatever they call it. just woke up -=z. u know from the battery to the inside of the car. and with the wiring diagram of the car, and other wiring issues. just a thought.
well i have finals until thursday, and then a whole 2 weeks of freedom! hows the book comming along? what would u estimate its release date to be?
do u also have a section in there on the best way to get the wiring through ur backwall or backfire, or whatever they call it. just woke up -=z. u know from the battery to the inside of the car. and with the wiring diagram of the car, and other wiring issues. just a thought.
12-16-01, 10:25 AM
#10
Moderator - Electronics Forum
fierce,
No estimated date on the book yet. I just finished the rear door installation procedures, working on the sub install next. Yes, the wiring description will be worked into the book. As for schematics, I'll put them WITH the book, not IN the book. This is for copyright reasons. Schematic is kept seperately and will be included as a courtesy and nothing else.
Interconnects will also be discussed. I may include some hand drawn general wiring routes so please pardon the non artistic ability with drawing!
Percy
No estimated date on the book yet. I just finished the rear door installation procedures, working on the sub install next. Yes, the wiring description will be worked into the book. As for schematics, I'll put them WITH the book, not IN the book. This is for copyright reasons. Schematic is kept seperately and will be included as a courtesy and nothing else.
Interconnects will also be discussed. I may include some hand drawn general wiring routes so please pardon the non artistic ability with drawing!
Percy
04-21-03, 06:07 PM
#11
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sub opinions
I was gonna just get a stronger amp for the sub in the back and also replace the sub with a better free-air sub back into the stock location. I am totally clueless about which speaker to get and which amp to get. Does it matter if the subwoofer is made for open air or not??
which company makes a good free-air sub?
any recommendations are appreciated
which company makes a good free-air sub?
any recommendations are appreciated
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
mhsu408
Lexus Audio, Video, Security & Electronics
1
01-08-06 12:47 PM
