Levinson Improvement - Heard Brains are here!
05-17-01, 05:06 PM
#1
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My Mark Levinson sound system in my GS-430 is nowhere near the quality of the Nakamichi I had in my 1992 SC-400 I just sold. Any suggestions as to how to improve the system without carving into the back deck and doors ??? The FAQ section mentioned a speaker change out would do wonders, but I call the shops here (Northridge, CA) and they ridicule this (my guess is they want to sell me amps). Anyone with hands on experience with this? I trust the end users a hell of a lot more than the shops that sell the stuff.
Also, I can't find out the specs on the speaker ohms, watts, etc, etc, - even from a very great guy who works at a dealer - Does anyone have a spec sheet on this system. I don't want to mix and match components incorrectly.
Also, does anyone know how to get in touch with the person the put in the FAQ info so I can talk to him directly and get more 1 on 1 info??
Thanks to all.
Also, I can't find out the specs on the speaker ohms, watts, etc, etc, - even from a very great guy who works at a dealer - Does anyone have a spec sheet on this system. I don't want to mix and match components incorrectly.
Also, does anyone know how to get in touch with the person the put in the FAQ info so I can talk to him directly and get more 1 on 1 info??
Thanks to all.
05-17-01, 05:30 PM
#2
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I would like to know the same, but for the '00 Nakamichi system...
If this has been covered before, I am sorry. Actually this is the first time I have come to this section of the board...
If this has been covered before, I am sorry. Actually this is the first time I have come to this section of the board...
Last edited by MikeGS4PE; 05-17-01 at 05:35 PM.
05-17-01, 06:39 PM
#4
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Thanks Stealth, but...
The Levinson site is basically a sales site that is telling me how great their system is. I appreciate your feedback, but I'm trying to find out two main things:
1. What people have done who agree with me, that the Levinson system is found to be seriously lacking in quality, to improve their systems, and
2. How I can do so without taking a chainsaw to my car to make all kinds of radical modifications. I'm hoping (maybe dreaming) that there is a solution that is as simple as changing out a few speaking that will fit in the factory space, or some bright after-markey guy who has come up with a system that just drops in and voila', I've got Hollywood Bowl quality sound.
Like I said, maybe I'm dreaming, but If I can get some of the specifications for the systems, Ohms, Watts, Compatibility, etc., I can move forward on the project.
Thanks again for your feedback though, Ken
1. What people have done who agree with me, that the Levinson system is found to be seriously lacking in quality, to improve their systems, and
2. How I can do so without taking a chainsaw to my car to make all kinds of radical modifications. I'm hoping (maybe dreaming) that there is a solution that is as simple as changing out a few speaking that will fit in the factory space, or some bright after-markey guy who has come up with a system that just drops in and voila', I've got Hollywood Bowl quality sound.
Like I said, maybe I'm dreaming, but If I can get some of the specifications for the systems, Ohms, Watts, Compatibility, etc., I can move forward on the project.
Thanks again for your feedback though, Ken
05-17-01, 06:46 PM
#5
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Well, I've heard alot about Dynaudio and Focal upgrades from Percy, U also go as far as to add an aftermarket amp for Subs. For me all i'm gonna do is add a powered SUB when I get the Wiring diagram I ordered 3 days ago from Lexus.
Check out this thread....
https://www.clublexus.com/vb/showthr...threadid=13424
Check out this thread....
https://www.clublexus.com/vb/showthr...threadid=13424
05-18-01, 07:41 AM
#6
Lexus Test Driver
We're Here!
Ken - Percy & I put the audio FAQ section together with some help from Brad ( Woody1 ). If U want schematics & electrical specs, Percy would be the man to talk to. He even demo'd the ML system a few months back & wrote up a terrific thread somewhere way back in this Forum ( hope it's still there? ). He's the DynAudio guru while my allegiance falls more to Focal. Percy's building the ultimate SQ machine with heavy modifications to the electronics while I, living in the heart of USAC country, need some SPL to be competitive so I can't quite go the full SQ monty. I know my CL address is a click-on link below my name & if Percy's isn't, try sending him a PM.
05-18-01, 09:07 AM
#7
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Kenjack,
They want to sell you the amps. Plain and simple. The shop that ridicules this, IMO, probably thinks that the amp is the weak spot of any system. It isn't. Speakers have and always will be the weakest link of any stock system. What amps are they pushing? (Obviously not McIntosh...)
I can't recall the specs offhand but I do believe that the ML stock speakers are 4 ohms. If you make a custom baffle (do the work yourself and forget about the shops) and drop in 7 inch Dynaudio MW160 midwoofers and MD100 1.1 inch tweeters, the sound will improve dramatically. Spectral balance, soundstage, depth, all the good stuff. The stock ML that I listened to leaves quite a bit to be desired. Soundstage was kinda narrow, spectral balance was uneven and the titanium tweeters that they used in the pillars still had an annoying 16k to 17k peak.
Amps usually have a max distortion of perhaps 1 to 3 percent on the extreme side of bad. Speakers will commonly have a 5 to 10 percent distortion. MB Quart speakers will have a 7 percent distortion in their midbass and upwards of 10 percent in the treble. Dynaudio, the speakers that I always HIGHLY recommend (not from a BS marketing standpoint, but rather from an extensive period of trial, error & experience) will have about 2 to 3 percent distortion. One of the lowest in the industry. That measurement includes 2nd and 3rd order harmonics (which most won't publish due to obvious markeing hype reasons) as well as Intermodulation distortion. The lowest on record is Velodyne, but they only make excellent subwoofers which are servo controlled (outboard processor, distortion control, etc). Velodyne is LESS THAN 1 percent distortion.
There is no real "drop it in and voila" solution for the Lexus automobile. The only way to do it is to go completely custom and do the work yourself. No install shops if possible. The reasons for this are twofold. For one, you're not on a timeclock and you can take the time to do it right. For another, shops have an annoying tendency of lack of security. There have been many instances where the kid installing the equipment has the owners name and address and then proceeds to rip off the car later that week. It's happened and will continue to happen. This also goes the same with alarm installations. They "just happen" to have the code to override the system, rip off the goods and then proceed merrily along their way. I stongly suggest you stay away from the shops and do the work yourself.
What are your system goals?
Percy
One of the writers of the FAQ for car audio/electronics.
GS400 Sound Quality Supercarrier
They want to sell you the amps. Plain and simple. The shop that ridicules this, IMO, probably thinks that the amp is the weak spot of any system. It isn't. Speakers have and always will be the weakest link of any stock system. What amps are they pushing? (Obviously not McIntosh...)
I can't recall the specs offhand but I do believe that the ML stock speakers are 4 ohms. If you make a custom baffle (do the work yourself and forget about the shops) and drop in 7 inch Dynaudio MW160 midwoofers and MD100 1.1 inch tweeters, the sound will improve dramatically. Spectral balance, soundstage, depth, all the good stuff. The stock ML that I listened to leaves quite a bit to be desired. Soundstage was kinda narrow, spectral balance was uneven and the titanium tweeters that they used in the pillars still had an annoying 16k to 17k peak.
Amps usually have a max distortion of perhaps 1 to 3 percent on the extreme side of bad. Speakers will commonly have a 5 to 10 percent distortion. MB Quart speakers will have a 7 percent distortion in their midbass and upwards of 10 percent in the treble. Dynaudio, the speakers that I always HIGHLY recommend (not from a BS marketing standpoint, but rather from an extensive period of trial, error & experience) will have about 2 to 3 percent distortion. One of the lowest in the industry. That measurement includes 2nd and 3rd order harmonics (which most won't publish due to obvious markeing hype reasons) as well as Intermodulation distortion. The lowest on record is Velodyne, but they only make excellent subwoofers which are servo controlled (outboard processor, distortion control, etc). Velodyne is LESS THAN 1 percent distortion.
There is no real "drop it in and voila" solution for the Lexus automobile. The only way to do it is to go completely custom and do the work yourself. No install shops if possible. The reasons for this are twofold. For one, you're not on a timeclock and you can take the time to do it right. For another, shops have an annoying tendency of lack of security. There have been many instances where the kid installing the equipment has the owners name and address and then proceeds to rip off the car later that week. It's happened and will continue to happen. This also goes the same with alarm installations. They "just happen" to have the code to override the system, rip off the goods and then proceed merrily along their way. I stongly suggest you stay away from the shops and do the work yourself.
What are your system goals?
Percy
One of the writers of the FAQ for car audio/electronics.
GS400 Sound Quality Supercarrier
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05-18-01, 05:35 PM
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Percy,
Although i'm sure you're correct about many shops about bad installers and people at shops coding remotes and such, There are many installers that are in it for the desire to help customers out and to fabricate great audio systems. I really wish that people wouldn't just rule out a professional installer because of those reasons. I don't know much about transmissons so I wouldn't just try to install my own. It's very easy to assume that other people have the same knowlege about installing car audio and security products in vechicles as you do. The fact is that most people don't even know what a crossover is, much the less tune or install one. My point is that a few dirty installers can give a bad name to the rest of us that are hardworking, honest people with a passion for car audio. Look for a good installer with a good history and background in the business. Do some research on the shop and the products they carry. Ask for competition results and demos of the products. Take your time and find someone that is willing to install your products the way you want it done, and find someone that is MECP certified. I'm sorry about the little rant here, I just don't think that everyone should install their own equipment.
Scott
Although i'm sure you're correct about many shops about bad installers and people at shops coding remotes and such, There are many installers that are in it for the desire to help customers out and to fabricate great audio systems. I really wish that people wouldn't just rule out a professional installer because of those reasons. I don't know much about transmissons so I wouldn't just try to install my own. It's very easy to assume that other people have the same knowlege about installing car audio and security products in vechicles as you do. The fact is that most people don't even know what a crossover is, much the less tune or install one. My point is that a few dirty installers can give a bad name to the rest of us that are hardworking, honest people with a passion for car audio. Look for a good installer with a good history and background in the business. Do some research on the shop and the products they carry. Ask for competition results and demos of the products. Take your time and find someone that is willing to install your products the way you want it done, and find someone that is MECP certified. I'm sorry about the little rant here, I just don't think that everyone should install their own equipment.
Scott
05-18-01, 06:19 PM
#9
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Scott,
The local shop that is around here (no name mentioned) is in fact MECP certified and there have been some questionable dealings with them. Actually, there are two of them, one being United Audio but this was back in 1997. Bad worker screwed it up for the rest of the shops.
As for the knowledge, its learned from step one/day one through lots of trial and error. The information didn't suddenly appear overnight, but rather is an accumulation of many years. Many people will ask what a crossover or parametric/graphic eq is and many of the people on this board are more than willing to help. If I had the tools on hand I probably would install my own tranny but that isn't likely. The point is that many of us have the hand and power tools already available. Why not take advantage of them, install it yourself and save the installation dollars on some other goodies? SRT intake, lowering the car, ground effects, new rims/tires, etc. At the end of the day you would have learned something.
Competition results DO NOT tell the entire story. There are many car audio competitors that are sponsored and use them because of the name, not performance. In fact, the better ones are NOT SPONSORED in any way. I do believe JL Audio will offer sponsorship as well as MB Quart, Alpine (steve brown) and other car audio brands. Brian Morris who won the world championship a little while ago was running pretty much top end equipment until he was sponsored by these other companies. He had to take the good stuff out and put in some mid level equipment due to the sponsorship rules. Many politics in the competitions. When you see the flashy ads of "Brand X...14 years and running as IASCA's top speaker" or "More of speaker X than any other in competition" or "More of power wire X than any other!!!", etc, I'd look at them as an advertising hype scheme rather than the actual truth. If you dig down a little bit, you'll find that the hype, slick glossy ads and full page advertisements will often be more fluff than actual truth. Technobabble in 99% of the cases.
Demo boards. This is a best guess approximation of how a speaker will sound. The demo boards don't have the acoustics of a car interior. Best bet, find a shop that will let you "try out" the speakers installed and will offer a money back guarantee. I've listened to many a speaker that sounds wonderful on the demo board but sounded like crap in the car. Tweeter locations change from the demo board (up nice and high, right next to the midwoofer) to the actual install (tweeter far from the midwoofer) and also due to a change in enclosure space. Demo boards are nearly ideal in enclosure space while the car is usually lacking in enclosure space for the speaker.
Getting into car audio is a big step for many. Just ask away...many people on this board are more than willing to help out even if the questions have been asked many times. Even though a question has been asked alot, remember that it's probably the first time that YOU have ever asked it!
Percy
Moderator Car Audio/Car Electronics
GS400 Sound Qualtiy Supercarrier
The local shop that is around here (no name mentioned) is in fact MECP certified and there have been some questionable dealings with them. Actually, there are two of them, one being United Audio but this was back in 1997. Bad worker screwed it up for the rest of the shops.
As for the knowledge, its learned from step one/day one through lots of trial and error. The information didn't suddenly appear overnight, but rather is an accumulation of many years. Many people will ask what a crossover or parametric/graphic eq is and many of the people on this board are more than willing to help. If I had the tools on hand I probably would install my own tranny but that isn't likely. The point is that many of us have the hand and power tools already available. Why not take advantage of them, install it yourself and save the installation dollars on some other goodies? SRT intake, lowering the car, ground effects, new rims/tires, etc. At the end of the day you would have learned something.
Competition results DO NOT tell the entire story. There are many car audio competitors that are sponsored and use them because of the name, not performance. In fact, the better ones are NOT SPONSORED in any way. I do believe JL Audio will offer sponsorship as well as MB Quart, Alpine (steve brown) and other car audio brands. Brian Morris who won the world championship a little while ago was running pretty much top end equipment until he was sponsored by these other companies. He had to take the good stuff out and put in some mid level equipment due to the sponsorship rules. Many politics in the competitions. When you see the flashy ads of "Brand X...14 years and running as IASCA's top speaker" or "More of speaker X than any other in competition" or "More of power wire X than any other!!!", etc, I'd look at them as an advertising hype scheme rather than the actual truth. If you dig down a little bit, you'll find that the hype, slick glossy ads and full page advertisements will often be more fluff than actual truth. Technobabble in 99% of the cases.
Demo boards. This is a best guess approximation of how a speaker will sound. The demo boards don't have the acoustics of a car interior. Best bet, find a shop that will let you "try out" the speakers installed and will offer a money back guarantee. I've listened to many a speaker that sounds wonderful on the demo board but sounded like crap in the car. Tweeter locations change from the demo board (up nice and high, right next to the midwoofer) to the actual install (tweeter far from the midwoofer) and also due to a change in enclosure space. Demo boards are nearly ideal in enclosure space while the car is usually lacking in enclosure space for the speaker.
Getting into car audio is a big step for many. Just ask away...many people on this board are more than willing to help out even if the questions have been asked many times. Even though a question has been asked alot, remember that it's probably the first time that YOU have ever asked it!
Percy
Moderator Car Audio/Car Electronics
GS400 Sound Qualtiy Supercarrier
05-18-01, 11:08 PM
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Percy,
I still think that just because you have heard of or even experienced problems with questionable installers, you shouldn't advise completely against a professional installer. Many custom jobs are very difficult to perform in a standard garage without the correct tools and or supplies. For instance, I would never suggest someone that's never made fiberglass pieces to do so without someone that's actually done it before. There are many techniques that should be taught from someone that has good experience in the subject. Besides that it's much easier to learn with someone that knows exactly what they are doing. Anyways, i'm starting to stray from my point. I still believe that there is still a great need for professional installers, and I don't think that you should make a comment suggesting that you shouldn't even consider one. For the most part, I believe that most installers have a passion for car audio and are not in it for the money.
Also, I don't doubt your experience or knowlege, but do you have professional experience in the car audio business? It would seem to me that you were at one point being paid to install car audio and security. Once again, i'm not criticizing, i'm just curious.
I still think that just because you have heard of or even experienced problems with questionable installers, you shouldn't advise completely against a professional installer. Many custom jobs are very difficult to perform in a standard garage without the correct tools and or supplies. For instance, I would never suggest someone that's never made fiberglass pieces to do so without someone that's actually done it before. There are many techniques that should be taught from someone that has good experience in the subject. Besides that it's much easier to learn with someone that knows exactly what they are doing. Anyways, i'm starting to stray from my point. I still believe that there is still a great need for professional installers, and I don't think that you should make a comment suggesting that you shouldn't even consider one. For the most part, I believe that most installers have a passion for car audio and are not in it for the money.
Also, I don't doubt your experience or knowlege, but do you have professional experience in the car audio business? It would seem to me that you were at one point being paid to install car audio and security. Once again, i'm not criticizing, i'm just curious.
05-19-01, 08:11 AM
#11
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Scott,
I'm referring to simple installs or stuff that an average person can do. Fiberglass is NOT for the average person! But as for simply measuring and cutting out a couple of wood baffles, pretty much anyone can do that! My viewpoint is if you can do it yourself and it's fairly simple, then why not? And save a few bucks to boot. But if you're going to go all out with advanced liquid cooling systems, extreme modifications, fiberglass, leatherwork, etc, then go pro if you trust the person.
I was never in the "professional" field of car audio or car security. I'm just a person with lots of experience in high end audio equipment. Remember that being a professional does not mean that you're dedicated or exceptional to your craft, it just means you're getting paid for it. You can call the kids at the local Best Buy "Professional Audio Intallers" when in reality some of them are questionable. They're getting paid for it so they're called "professional". That's what Professional means...you're getting paid for it. It doesn't mean you're exceptional at it!
Bottom line, if it's a simple install or something you think you can do yourself, then why not try it? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. There are many members on this board who were leary about installing their own equipment but they gave it a go anyways. (Simple installs...no fiberglass!) Sure, there are obstacles along the way but once when they got everything working they learned much more than the 85 dollar an hour shop would ever teach them. Practical, "In the trench" experience. Nothing can really substitute for that.
Percy
I'm referring to simple installs or stuff that an average person can do. Fiberglass is NOT for the average person! But as for simply measuring and cutting out a couple of wood baffles, pretty much anyone can do that! My viewpoint is if you can do it yourself and it's fairly simple, then why not? And save a few bucks to boot. But if you're going to go all out with advanced liquid cooling systems, extreme modifications, fiberglass, leatherwork, etc, then go pro if you trust the person.
I was never in the "professional" field of car audio or car security. I'm just a person with lots of experience in high end audio equipment. Remember that being a professional does not mean that you're dedicated or exceptional to your craft, it just means you're getting paid for it. You can call the kids at the local Best Buy "Professional Audio Intallers" when in reality some of them are questionable. They're getting paid for it so they're called "professional". That's what Professional means...you're getting paid for it. It doesn't mean you're exceptional at it!
Bottom line, if it's a simple install or something you think you can do yourself, then why not try it? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. There are many members on this board who were leary about installing their own equipment but they gave it a go anyways. (Simple installs...no fiberglass!) Sure, there are obstacles along the way but once when they got everything working they learned much more than the 85 dollar an hour shop would ever teach them. Practical, "In the trench" experience. Nothing can really substitute for that.
Percy
Last edited by Percy; 05-19-01 at 08:16 AM.
05-19-01, 09:16 AM
#12
Lexus Test Driver
Middle Ground
Guys - I'm stuck in the middle of both your points. Percy knows how I feel about the politics of competition & also that NO ONE will take the time & patience to do your car like you will yourself! And yes, Scott - I have been an installer a few years ago. I can understand the concern of some folks to tear apart a $40-$60k car as well. I also know that there's no money in a shop doing a high end install versus a simple sub/headunit/component job. The complex job ties up the shop's best installer all day for many days. This is time in which he could have turned out 2 or 3 simple jobs/day - more money. The high end install is more of a calling card for the shop to show what it can do, given enough time & money! The industry has many good shops but, as U said, all it takes is one hack job to blacken the eye of that shop because word of mouth is still the best endorsement. I think there's much to be learned within your discussion of pro versus self installs. If it's a simple task & U aren't afraid to tackle it, then by all means do so. However, if U R afraid that it may be above your capabilites, then do some serious research of the shops in your area ( asking for pictures of previous installs - any good installer will have an album of his work ) before choosing.
05-19-01, 10:28 AM
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Mean Gene,
I completely agree with you. That's a very logical way of looking at this subject. I surely didn't mean to cause such a big disscusion about this, and I'm very glad to see yours and Percy's point of view on this.
Scott
I completely agree with you. That's a very logical way of looking at this subject. I surely didn't mean to cause such a big disscusion about this, and I'm very glad to see yours and Percy's point of view on this.
Scott
05-20-01, 03:24 PM
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Mark levinson system
Wow! I've heard mixed opinions on this system, some are praising it like hell and others are saying that it is just average....
well, I am an audiophile myself and have a Mark Levinson preamp as part of my home setup which I swear by.
I can tell you that Mark Levinson is **untouched** in home audio (perhaps Krell - http://www.krellonline.com is equal), they are revered - they are the ROLEX of amplification!! A Mark Levinson preamp+amp hooked to some B&W 804s will take you to audio heaven :-)
So its a bit strange that their car systems would not be in the same league...but then again just because they are the leaders in home systems does not automatically mean that they are going to make good car systems. I heard that Lexus is using the Revel speakers...these have been rated good by Stereophile!
well, I am an audiophile myself and have a Mark Levinson preamp as part of my home setup which I swear by.
I can tell you that Mark Levinson is **untouched** in home audio (perhaps Krell - http://www.krellonline.com is equal), they are revered - they are the ROLEX of amplification!! A Mark Levinson preamp+amp hooked to some B&W 804s will take you to audio heaven :-)
So its a bit strange that their car systems would not be in the same league...but then again just because they are the leaders in home systems does not automatically mean that they are going to make good car systems. I heard that Lexus is using the Revel speakers...these have been rated good by Stereophile!
05-20-01, 05:12 PM
#15
Moderator - Electronics Forum
One of the reasons why I would pick Krell over Levinson is that in the old days (circa 1980), Levinson had the market of high end. Their amps were statosphere priced and their sound wasn't that good. Along came a guy named Dan D'Agostino that changed all that. He started the company "on a shoestring" back in the very early 80's. Went from shop to shop that carried Levinson and many shop owners agreed that the Krell amp was better, and not marginally. When D'Agostino got an order, he would hand build the amps and then deliver them. Got to a point where Krell was actually making a mark on Levinson equipment. Then, Levinsons CEO gave the directive which still stands today....No shop that carries Levinson will carry Krell.
It's just that Krell gave the high end a much needed push in competition. Remember when Lexus came out in 1990? The Germans would automatically say "There's no history behind the car"..."It's another Toyota". Now, several years later, they aren't harping the "no history" thing. Plus who would have ever thought that a Japanese luxery car would give the old timers like BMW and Mercedes a run for the money?
Try this for a system. Krell Master Reference series amps (nothing in the Levinson lineup can touch these yet) with Dynaudio Evidence speakers. That'll knock anybodys socks off.
Percy
It's just that Krell gave the high end a much needed push in competition. Remember when Lexus came out in 1990? The Germans would automatically say "There's no history behind the car"..."It's another Toyota". Now, several years later, they aren't harping the "no history" thing. Plus who would have ever thought that a Japanese luxery car would give the old timers like BMW and Mercedes a run for the money?
Try this for a system. Krell Master Reference series amps (nothing in the Levinson lineup can touch these yet) with Dynaudio Evidence speakers. That'll knock anybodys socks off.
Percy