Hameed

I need to finalize on a pair or single sub for my upcoming competition class SQ audio system upgrade and want to seek your opinion based on your experience either
(1) your first hand experience competing, or
(2) your first hand experience listening to different subs

Reading a few posts on this forum I have narrowed down what seem to be good subs (construction quality and excellent SQ - none of the cheap stuff made in Taiwan etc):

1. Elemental Design (which particular model?)
2. Illusion Audio ND-12
3. JL Audio 12W6V2 4

Is it better to have just a single 12 as opposed to two 10's?

Any places online where I can buy these at good prices? (preferably brand new).

Thanks for your input!

04GS300

Hi! I auditioned the Eclipse aluminum subs a couple years ago, and are the best I've heard, although I've not been looking for a couple of years now so they may well have been surpassed. I didn't get them because they were to much dinero.

I got Image Dynamics IDQ series and I love them! They're fairly cheap, great SQ, and they can thump a little when you want them too.

I've never competed, but based on my experience with my Quart Q / McIntosh amp / Image Dynamics setup, the first two subs I would think about would be the Eclipse metal (I think they use titanium now?), and the Image Dynamics IDMax, if you want something that serious, or the IDQ series.

I have to admit I've not heard of Elemental Design, and only vaguely of Illusion Audio. Personally I don't like JL subs, in part because I don't think their surround material holds up very well, but a whole lot of people love JL.

That's just my .02

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

The Eclipse Aluminum & Titanium are good woofers, pretty good SQ, but somewhat below the JL W6, W7, and IDMAX. Depends on how much money you want to spend and how much work you're willing to do to build and mount enclosures. Also heavily depends on what electronics you're using to drive them, whether you want to install a new battery and/or alternator, etc. Two 10's are more cone area than one 12, so theoretically more total output, but when you get two drivers pumping you then have to worry about dips and peaks in the frequency response. Tends to be easier on your amps and electrical system to get the same SPL output from two 10's than one 12. Two 10's are no match for two 12's, however. A W6, W7, or IDMAX has significant weight due to the magnet and suspension - two 10's may be easier to deal with. There really is no better or worse - it depends on too many other factors - how much power you want to pump, which woofers you choose, where you put them in the car, the quality of your installation (that's a biggie!).

Try woofersetc.com. Good prices, good service.

Hameed

My overriding concern is SQ and NOT SPL. It appears from your comments that two 10's are more applicable for a system geared towards SPL. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for the link!

04GS300

If you're purely looking for SQ, which basically means nothing but bottom fill, then I'd go with either 1 10" or 1 12". I had 2 12's running at 2 Ohms getting 300 watts each because I didn't want to take any chances . I probably would have been fine with 1 12".

If you go IDMax, which may well be the best sub period for SQ or SPL, I definitely wouldn't get more than 1 because those things look like beasts. I'd also give consideration to the IDQ series since they're a lot smaller than the IDMax.

Hameed

I have heard that the Decware 10 inch subs with the proprietary Deathbox enclosure simply blow away the competition - http://www.decware.com . Any comments on those?

I have also heard the new CDT Eurosport subs that will be coming out will sound even better than the older model which sounded just amazing - CDT MS-100. Comments on those anyone?

O. L. T.

iTrader: (17)

JL and Eclipse = SPL

Hameed let me say two suggestions

1.- OZ Audio

2.- (cost no factor option) Servodrive

Hameed

Thanks bro, I checked woofersetc.com but cannot find those there. Anyplace else you know where they are sold?

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

Hameed, as far as your concern for SQ vs SPL, I'd lean toward one 12 (which is what I did in my own car with IDMAX), but again, it depends on the installation quality and the particulars. You can make a great SQ system with (2) 10's if done right, and with the right components, but I'd stick with one 12 for SQ, mounted in or underneath the stock woof hole.

04GS300:
Agreed. The IDMAX has a 28 pound magnet and is a bear to mount to anything other than its own free-standing enclosure. Same for the JL W7. But the bigger issue is that if you were to go with (2) 10's or 12's of IDMAX or W7, you wind up with problems powering them sufficiently. I think it was 'sirsomo' on CL that had two 12" IDMAX's that needed an electrical power plant to power them....

04GS300

hehe...I was about to the point of needing a mobile power plant with my old setup. 50x4 and 300x2 but a 1 farad cap pretty much solved all my problems. I'm not an installer or anything, but based on my personal experience I highly recommend caps.

A smaller woofer will always be better for SQ because they're smaller and can move faster, but it won't have as much bass because it can't move as much air, so you have to find a balance. If I were you, Hameed, I'd try to narrow it down to a couple of brands, then listen to one 10" and one 12" from those brands and then decide.

engin_ear: Do you have a GS? If so, did you mount your IDMax in the stock location? I've been bouncing around the idea of either putting a new 10" or one of my 12" in the stock location in my GS. Also, what do you think of the Focal and Dynaudio speakers, and compare them to the MB Quart Q series? I settled on the Q series because it was by far better than anything else I had heard, but I never could find anywhere relatively close that had Focal or Dynaudio to give them a listen.

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

04GS3: Yeah, '99 GS4. IDMAX is mounted in its own enclosure and sits directly underneath the stock woofer hole. The woofer is so close that I had to bend the lip of the stock hole up so that the surround didn't hit on large excursions. I had pics in the Member Gallery here, but I think they got too old and were removed.

I think the Dynaudio's are excellent, very accurate, and the tweeter has the added advantage of not being too directional. The Focals I have I think are the best coaxials I've heard, but they aren't the best Focals, I didn't spend too much money on the rear fill - I plan on replacing them with Dynaudio in the near future. Haven't heard the Q series yet, but I've heard a lot about them, many people think they are relatively bright, but still a good speaker. I absolutely do NOT like Focal tweeters (titanium inverted dome) for up front, possible exception is the Utopia series, but the others are just way too bright and metallic sounding. I prefer silk domes.

If you're debating what to do with your sub(s), have you physically seen the GS rear deck yet??? It's a very thin gauge sheet metal than bends extremely easily. So anything heavy that you mount to it has to be braced extremely well for both side-to-side torquing motion and also to prevent the fasteners from ripping out of the metal. A wood or metal baffle is recommended to mount to the underside of the deck if you choose to mount directly to it. I actually hung my whole enclosure, which weighs 60 pounds (woofer + MDF), from the deck, but it's braced like there's no tomorrow, and I have a supporting block under it as well.

The IDMAX 10", if you can get one, seems like a really good choice that can possibly be mounted in the rear deck with less hassle. Very clean woofers that you can drive hard. I get away with one 12" IDMAX because of how hard you can drive it and still be reasonably pure in SQ. I wouldn't just use one 12" IDQ woofer if you plan on driving it hard, I'd rather have one 10" IDMAX than one 12" IDQ. Way more excursion capability.

Hameed

Changing the subject slightly - before you buy any speakers for the front, listen to the CDT Audio HD62-ST with the SatNet 560 crossovers. They sound waaaay better than any focal or dynaudio. They come with a 1 inch silk dome tweeter and in the critical midrange that those speakers are meant for, they sound waaay better than the DynAudio's or Focals.

Try them out for yourself and you will be convinced!

Now back to SQ subs! Still confused...........

04GS300

e_ear...no, I haven't examined the rear deck in detail. I've been through the big box filling up the trunk phase and I'm not really interested in taking up the whole thing again so I'd prefer something that fits relatively well into the stock location. I've got the ML system and I really think it's quite good, it just needs a little more oomph I don't plan on driving to very hard. I rarely drove it that hard when I had my 2 12's running, just on occasion. Do you think that the shelf will hold up a IDMax 10" by itself? I called ID and they said you can run it in an infinite baffle without any problem, just cut the max power rating to about 500 watts, which is fine by me. If it would hold it up then that would be my best option, I think. He also said that the ID v.3 has currently surpassed the IDQ series, which surprised me. He said that the main advantage of the IDMax over the ID v.3 is obviously the output and just a little bit of accuracy.

As far as the Quart Q's, I have the couple years old model that does not have the metallic powder coating on the midrange, but they are quite good, but they are just a touch bright with their titanium dome tweeters. However the tweeters are adjustable from 0, -2, -4, and -6 dB at the crossover. Personally I ran mine at -4 dB.

Hameed, I'm not sure where you're at, but I would try to narrow it down to a couple of brands and go listen to them. I don't know if enclosure size and power concerns you, but take that into account if it does. IMO, you can't beat Image Dynamics, especially the ID line for the money. www.sounddomain.com is the only authorized retailer for ID online, so even at full retail you can get an ID v.3 10" for $99 and if it's better than my IDQ series, then that's one incredible bargain!

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

04GS, I would maybe attempt the 10" IDMAX in the deck, but never the 12", and even then not without doing some things to brace the deck. Not sure how you'd even mount it IN the deck......you need to allow for clearance of the lip sticking up above the deck level, plus the excursion clearance, which is large for IDMAX. The cone/surround might hit the deck cover. So what I would probably do is a double thickness of 1/2" or even 3/4" MDF, with the top layer being a spacing/bracing layer (cut out hole larger than the diam of the woofer), and the bottom layer being the one that the woofer mounts in (with the correct size hole to drop the woofer into). This would recess the lip of the woofer and allow clearance for excursion. Then I'd bolt the whole damn thing to the underside of the deck, using big washers, 1/4" or larger bolts/nuts, and some angle brackets to provide extra stiffening and support underneath and spread the load of the bolts to prevent the MDF from ripping thru. I guess if you were doing this you could do it for the 12" as well, as long as you're not trying to mount directly into the stock hole and paper sheet metal.

O. L. T.

iTrader: (17)

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