When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
"Boost spikes" causing serious damage? How does the "boost spike" get past the wastegate, and, should it fail, the protective fuel-cut?
I've already conceded that the turbos themselves are "wear items", and some German cars with particularity crappy turbos do not prove your case.
It's true that getting more power out of the same-sized lump means more heat, but heat can be dealt-with.
Millions of hard-working trucks demonstrate the reliability of FI engines.
HUH? I wasn't trying to get too specific with it as anyone with common engineering knowledge knows that as of March 2015 NA engines are more reliable and have greater longevity than FI
1.Bottom line is the higher the manifold pressure the more stressed the engine is, everywhere, if the components are up to the task its not as bad, but you will still burn through seals and blow rings more quickly given the materials we currently have can only do so much.
2.duty cycles. While its true that turbo engines can turn slower engines speeds saving you from having to rev the nuts off it to make power thus burning through your seals, bearings more quickly, the turbo components themselves have CRAZY duty cycles. i.e. 100,000 plus rpm turbines.
3.. heat management - while its more thermally efficient to capture and reuse exhaust heat energy, it also means that more heat energy stays in the system and that means you have to abbate it with more components (more to break) or deal with it in the metallurgy and that means either higher costs, less durability or both.
"Boost spikes" causing serious damage? How does the "boost spike" get past the wastegate, and, should it fail, the protective fuel-cut?
I've already conceded that the turbos themselves are "wear items", and some German cars with particularity crappy turbos do not prove your case.
It's true that getting more power out of the same-sized lump means more heat, but heat can be dealt-with.
Millions of hard-working trucks demonstrate the reliability of FI engines.
Typically a spike in boost is due to wastegate failure. Protective fuel cut will help here, although it would likely put the car into limp mode, but that's beside the point.
As far as proving my case, you have the shoe on the wrong foot my friend. The burden of proof lies with you to back up your claim, not to me to refute it. See how that works? You make the claim, so you must now prove it to be true.
And please, do so comparing apples to apples. Turbo-diesel engines cannot be compared to gas FI engines for a lot of reasons, and thus "millions of hard working trucks" are both irrelevant to the conversation and beside the point entirely (if only for the fact that the engine inside is worth more than the typical small car anyway).
Oh man, is this the thread I've been waiting for! I just leased a 2015 IS350 F-Sport. I traded in a 2102 Audi S4 Prestige Titanium that I had owned for 4 months. I spent more than a year agonizing over whether to buy a Mitsubishi Evo X Touring or an Audi S4. I owned previous versions of both cars, but in reality my loyalty is with Honda/Acura. However, I wanted more power, more features and a hint of oversteer. When I was comparing the Evo and the S4, my tests were in 2014 model Audis. Even though I thought I did my homework, it turns out there there were big changes in the B8 platform between 2012 and 2014. I bought the S4 on Autotrader and had it shipped coast to coast. I had it relisted on Autotrader within two months. As i became more disappointed with the car, I started looking at new models in other brands. As I mentioned, I'm a huge fan of Honda (my favorite car to date was my '07 Civic Si sedan), but nothing in their line works for me right now. I love the interface and driving characteristics of the Acura ILX, but it's nothing to look at, and the color choices are pretty dull. On a whim I decided to give Lexus a try. From the moment I sat in the IS F-Sport, I knew which car I wanted. Funny thing is, my impressions of the two cars are not quite the same as the OP.
Originally Posted by bhvrdr
Well I picked up a Monsoon Grey Audi S4 premium plus with the DSG (aka, s-tronic), tech package and B&O stereo. MSRP was ~55,000. Purchase price was ~$49,500.
I also have the 2014 IS350 with Nav. MSRP was ~$45,000 and purchase price was ~41,000.
After having put some miles on both cars, here are my impressions.
EXTERIOR STYLING: Lexus
I never thought i'd be saying this but yes a Japanese car has more aggressive styling than its German counterpart. I am one of the few (other than IS350 owners, that is) people that find the IS350 to be pretty attractive. I am glad lexus didnt play it safe. If I stare at both cars, my eyes do get drawn to the Lexus more. The S4 does have truly classic and understated styling that is perhaps conservative by today’s standards, but it does exude luxury. Objectively, if you picked 10 random people off the street, most would probably favor the less polarizing styling of the Audi. I would be one in the minority though so I give the nod to the IS350. It is almost completely subjective? Yup.
While I must admit that the dramatic taillight design of the IS caught my attention the first time I saw it, I think the Audi is a slightly better looking car. More muscular and cohesive from one end to the other. The other bias for me is that my Audi was orange. While the Ultra White is nice, my fantasy IS would be in that metallic gold offered on earlier CTs with the Flaxen NuLuxe interior. Yum. Funny thing was when I was transferring my stuff from the Audi to the Lex at the dealer, one of the staff (looking at the orange Audi) asked my why I didn't get a bolder color... Sadly, white IS the bold color.
Originally Posted by bhvrdr
INTERIOR STYLING: Tie
This is a tough call. With respect to the luxurious use of quality materials, the nod goes to the Audi. There is fake suede mixed in with the leather seats. On each door panel of the Audi you will find no fewer than three unique and luxuries surface textures; a brushed aluminum trim piece, a fake suede insert, and soft touch plastics. Compare this to the Lexus door panel that is made up of hard plastic that could be found in any entry level put put car. The seats of the S4 and the Lexus are similarly sporty, supportive, and nice to be in. I actually prefer the back support of the Lexus seats but my wife prefers the S4 seats for her back. Where the Audi falls behind in interior points is that it’s a relatively dated design. You sit pretty high up in the Audi and the design of the interior dates back to 2010 when this car was released in NA. The lexus has you sitting down deeper in the cockpit (less visibility but more sporting feeling) and the controls are oriented well to the driver. It looks a bit more “futuristic” inside.
I'll agree with the tie. Both have awesome seats. My Audi had the suede ones, which seem stiffer than the normal leather. The Lexus seats are so buttery soft, though, and they have cooling fans! The F-Sport gauge cluster wins hands-down. It's the next best thing to the awesome gauges in my '07 Civic. Where both cars fail miserably is storage compartments. No place to stash things properly. At least the Lexus has two normal-size cup holders. The Audi has 1 and a half. Sorry passenger, only Red Bulls for you.
Originally Posted by bhvrdr
IN-CAR ELECTRONICS: Audi
Both of the cars I have are equipped extremely similarly. The Audi has only the Tech package and upgraded sound system. The Lexus has the Nav Package with blind spot and park assist (basically the audi tech package). The Audi backup camera is a better resolution and the guide lines change with the steering angle on the S4. The Audi navigation system is far easier to use than the absolutely idiotic mouse track ball in the IS350. The sound settings on the Audi are excellent with its surround sound adjustability and soundstage control. The Audi comes standard with memory seats (an absolute must if you have another person ever use your car such as hand car wash attendants, valets, mechanics). The Audi comes standard with rain sensing wipers. The audi comes standard with 6 months of free wireless hot spot action with a Google Map overlay of the navigation system right down to street view if you like. Yes, the Germans are kicking butt in electronics compared to the Japanese here. It wasn’t a close match.
Here's where the 2012 version of the S4 really loses out. The awful Infotainment interface was the primary reason I ditched the Audi. Everything is counter intuitive. The navigation is awful to program. The system didn't support Bluetooth audio. The satellite radio was very glitchy. The audio stayed on until you opened a door. The audio always comes on when you start the car. The Audi wipers were the only sensible aspect of the electronic controls in the entire interior. I will also credit Audi with the superior BSM system. I like that the indicators were tucked on the inner face of the mirrors, that they were generous in size and gave warning when something in the distance was approaching fast. I also think the B&O sound system was better for my ear. The Levinson has great detail and imaging, but I like the tonal qualities of the Audi system a little better. Neither system has adequate speed sensitive volume.
Originally Posted by bhvrdr
ENGINE: Audi
The powerband of the S4 is incredible. Not only is there excellent top end power from the supercharged V6 but the torque is also accessible everywhere in the powerband. The throttle response is overwhelmingly favorable to the Audi. As far as engine noise goes, the Lexus has a relatively pleasant although somewhat synthetic sounding sound that is piped in via little bugle under the hood. I’ll stop just shy of calling the synthesized engine note in the Lexus a little odd though. The Audi makes a seductive growl accompanied by fun little “burps” as the gears change (more on the gears later). It is a better soundtrack in the Audi. Important to note is that the “drive select” options in the Audi allow you to specify three levels of engine volume (comfort, auto, and dynamic). Dynamic is the place to be.
I agree that Audi has the stronger engine, but to me it seemed too high strung. I feel totally comfortably running the Lexus wide open. Not so much in the Audi. Funny thing about the Audi noise selector (not an option in my S4) is that it controls a speaker in the exhaust system. The Audi sounds good and has an awesome pop when it shifts, but I think the Lexus is pretty awesome in Sport+ as well.
Originally Posted by bhvrdr
TRANSMISSION: Audi, Audi, Audi!
Normally I could have just combined engine and transmission into one category and commented on them both but to do that would be to do the Audi a disservice here. If there was no other reason to buy the S4 you should buy this car for the dual clutch automated manual transmission. It simply must be experienced to be believed. One of my big annoyances with the traditional automatic of the Lexus is that it has too many gears and gets confused when asked to downshift at, say, cruising speed of 75mph on the freeway. You stomp the pedal and its wait for it…one thousand one…wait for it…ok shifted. With the S4 you can be cruising at 2200rpm on the freeway and stomp the transmission and it is as though you just made your quickest short shift directly to third gear. It is instantaneous. It is sublime. It is the stuff race car driver wanna be warriors are made of. Shifting the S4 in manual mode is also far superior to the IS350. Again, the gear changes just happen immensely quicker. Rev matching? Oh the S4 can do rev matching. You may have thought the IS350 can do rev matching and throttle blips, but you drive the S4 and you realize it was a pathetic attempt. Start to brake hard for an upcoming turn in the S4 and you get an instant and commanding blip followed by another blip as you continue to brake and set up for the turn. The car just happens to know you are lining up for a turn and need to be served up the right gear. Here again, the S4 offers three different options for transmission aggressiveness (comfort, auto, and dynamic). Yes the IS350 offers sport mode but in reality but it has much less of an effect on the behavior of the transmission than when you change settings in the Audi.
There are actually a few things I like more about the IS shifting, even though I completely support the assessment above. First, the S4 can be clunky at low speeds. Second, the lever position in manual mode is on the wrong side. It's very easy to pull it out of manual mode in aggressive shifting. Neither vehicle has the paddles mounted on the column like they should be. Neither car emulates a standard 1-2 shift on the stick (forward to downshift / back to upshift), which is also the proper orientation. At least the Lexus paddles are big enough to be found from multiple hand positions. I'm not as critical of the performance in auto mode, since I never use it.
Originally Posted by bhvrdr
SUSPENSION: Tie
Comparing an AWD S4 to the RWD IS350 wouldn’t normally be very fair. The IS350 should be the fun to drive tail happy car and the S4 should be the ponderous nose heavy pig ready to plow the fields (pigs plow fields right?). Unfortunately neither of these cars are perfect. The IS350 combines the excellent traits of RWD being light on its feet and eager to initiate directional changes. The IS350 also has far superior control of body roll. The downside is that the IS350 also seems to combine the traditional traits of an AWD front engine car as well…but this IS350 is not AWD. Translation…the IS350 understeers. It understeers worse than the 3900lb S4. So the S4 has a bit less roll control but when it breaks traction it does so in a relatively neutral drift as opposed to any under or over steer.
STEERING FEEL: Tie
The steering feel of each car is also a matter of preference rather than an all-out win for either. The Lexus has a very nice and linear weight to the steering. It may be slightly numb but the steering is predictable and consistent in weight if not slightly stiff for my taste (but I like soft steering). Most would probably favor the Lexus steering because it does have a nice weight to it and it is consistent. The S4 has a variable weight to it. It electronically reduces effort in parking lots and as speed rises it considerably tightens up. Oh how I miss my 2003 Audi A4 that had regular hydraulic steering. Audi screwed up here. If you are heading down the back strait of a track you will have very firm steering in the S4 regardless of the “drive select” mode you have chosen. Now you come to the end of the back strait and do threshold braking as you line up for a 45mph turn. The steering is going to light up on you mid corner. Now you power out of that corner and, yup, total change in steering feel again back to tight. It’s annoying, if anything. So why is it a tie? Because it’s my comparison is why it’s a tie, haha. In reality it is a tie because I happen to prefer lighter steering in the city and in parking lots. I value it a lot actually and the S4 allows me to one handed steer into a parking space while I’m fiddling with the stereo. So, like I say, most will probably favor the IS350 but I consider it a toss up.
Here's where I got hosed. The 2014 Audis I test drove all had the full drive select package with electronic shocks and variable steering ratio. The one I bought didn't, and the difference is staggering. The nimble parking lot experience described above is completely absent. Awful. Car felt heavier than it was, which is a shame, because the ones I tested felt very light. By comparison, my F-Sport IS is a ballerina, and I love her.
Originally Posted by bhvrdr
RELIABILITY: Lexus, Lexus, Lexus
What can you say here. Lexus is in an entirely different league in reliability. While the rest of the car companies are separated by 2 points to 5 points in reliability ratings, Lexus sits on its own up front with the next competitor experience almost 60 less points. The S4 is not immune to its problems. The 3.0T FSI engine is a direct injection motor that audi, in their infinite wisdom, has decided does not need secondary port injectors to help reduce carbon buildup. Guess what? The engines get terrible carbon build up. It is not uncommon to have a 3.0 TFSI engine have to go in for a tear down carbon cleaning in as little as 25K miles of use. Of course Audi had this problem dating back to 2007 on their FSI v8 engines in the RS4 but being proactive about fixing problems is not their strong suit. Unfortunately, neither is their corporate stance on servicing vehicles. It is common to hear complaints from S4 drivers who noted carbon buildup to have had to pay out of pocket upwards of a couple thousand dollars to have the carbon buildup removed on a car that is still under warranty because audi’s stance is to put some fuel injector cleaner in the car and hope it goes away. Audi also uses a more service intensive dual clutch transmission that may experience increased need for replacement parts such as pumps and clutches. Lexus, on the other hand, uses the same port and direct injected engine that has been successful for them in multiple applications and for many years. Even the “new” 8 speed transmission is a rather safe and tried and true adaptation of a similar part that had been in the ISF application for years.
VALUE: Lexus
When comparing MSRP and market prices the S4 is about 8 thousand dollars more expensive. In addition, it will be a more costly car to own. The residual on an Audi is about 15% worse than on a Lexus after 3 years making the Lexus extremely attractive to lease as well. The Audi will be worth much less after 3 years. Both cars require premium fuel. The Audi has more service needs when comparing recommended maintenances. So can the positive attributes of the S4 make up for its premium price, higher service costs, and the worse depreciation? Tough call, but the value does go to the Lexus here.
SUMMARY:
In summary, the S4 offers a superior engine and epic transmission while also offering a more user friendly technology interface and more standard equipment tech options. The interior of the S4 is made of higher quality materials but in a more dated design language. The Lexus offers more aggressive but polarizing styling, a futuristic interior design, exemplary car control and chassis, and unparalleled reliability and long term residual value. It’s drivetrain, however, is mediocre in both power and responsiveness and when pushed hard the car tends to oversteer significantly. So if I’m buying, it’s the Lexus IS350. If I’m leasing, it’s the S4. For now, I choose both.
Yep to all the rest, but I'm delighted with the new IS and can't wait to get it on the track. Hopefully they will improve the interior amenities to be similar to those in the RC and maybe add more colors by the time my lease is up...
Nice write up! I was sure I was going to purchase a BMW or Audi, but for me - it came down to reliability. I plan to keep my IS350 for 8-10 yrs. I had a blast test driving the German cars but realized quickly the IS350 was for me after the first test drive! Thanks for the detailed comparison.
Yeah the Fsport does offer the ability to adjust up the dampers but otherwise the suspension components (springs, swaybars, everything) is identical. I cant shame the suspension of the IS350 at all. Around town and anything up to 7/10 driving it is arguably better. Its chassis is better, it resists roll better, it has sharper turn-in. The major flaw is that at 8/10 and up it understeers and it understeers bad.
In reality, if you wanted to make the Lexus pretty close to perfect all you would have to do is put a meaty square tire setup on it and what should be a $150 rear swaybar. So why the #$%#@ does it cost a grand to get swaybars for the Lexus? Some one could make a kiling developing one that is not uber expensive TRD.
Mike
RC350 rear sways may fit....they are 19mm dia. But not sure what the IS rear bar size other than the part numbers are not the same.
Great review! Only Audi I would ever consider buying would be the RS7 and well yea, that won't be happening any time soon lol!
I'm curious though....your backup camera guide lines don't move with your steering? Mine does. And I actually thought the camera quality was amazing compared to the last 3 vehicles I drove with backup cameras. If you think the Audi's is better I must see it!! Time for a test drive lol.
This review is a must read for all the car magazine editors who never want to talk about the consequences of ownership. Performance without regard to maintenance costs and hassles is only relevant to those who can afford exotics.
03-19-15, 06:19 PM
