dasbuch

Bingo. This is a slightly more "user friendly" way of putting it the same way. I'm not opposed to nav systems, I'm just opposed to the bang for buck car makers have become complacent with. It's not enough, and it's not going to change until customers demand better.

Meanwhile we have folks who don't even have an IS coming and defending the nav system in a different car.. .heheh. Honestly I have no idea if GS owners are generally happy with their navs or not, but I know the consensus is the IS nav sucks and is difficult to separate from other desired options, so I'd say I'm in the right thread but I don't know about everyone else.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

dasbach,

Going to ask you to not be dismissive of the preferences and opinions of other members and use stereotypes/labels like 'sheep'.

Navigation preference is a bit like religion when debated... discuss respectfully please.

dasbuch

I will try to let this thread cool off, but for the record I did not intend to refer to any member here as "a sheep". I was talking about the broad propensity of a given base of buyers at large to accept the status quo rather than evaluate the true value proposition and make their voice known. If anyone in particular thought I was insulting them for owning an integrated nav system, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

dasbuch

This is the crux of what I want to convey. It's not that I'm against integrated nav systems, its the cost vs value of the current systems, and the fact that while GPS technology has evolved a lot since these were first introduced into cars, it seems that the car makers' mental perception of value has not evolved with it. I'm speaking in the IS thread largely about the IS nav system, since I haven't heard anyone here say they thought it was good, much less up to Lexus standards, yet Lexus wants a premium price for it or wants it bundled with other options inseperably. I cannot speak about navs in the GS or whatever -- there are other forums for that.

SW17LS

Dealer's don't use black book or blue book values when they give you a trade in value for a car. They use their own comparable sales and they use published auction prices. Thats my point when I say valuation sites aren't really of much value...the only people using them are people trying to guess what their cars are worth. I've sat right there in dealerships and been presented with the data they do in fact use, its not data we have access to. My experience is from shopping for CPO LS430s, whenever I found one that looks great, low miles, great price...when you clicked into the ad...no nav.

There are regional differences, but they're not as disparate for an option like this as they would be for say heated seats or AWD in the south vs the north.

And again, cost is not the only factor here. As I said, I want built in nav whether I loose the entire cost of the option or not. I just want built in nav, not tacked on aftermarket nav. You don't and thats fine, don't buy it. But, companies build what customers want. If customers did not want built in nav, they would speak with their wallets. People are not "sheep" just because they don't feel the same way you do.

Its the same nav. The IS has the upgraded nav, but essentially its the same system Toyota/Lexus has been using for years. The nav in my GS is essentially the same as what was in my 2003 ES...just refined, sharper, more features. I used the IS nav extensively in the loaner I had last month.

dasbuch

I understand the desirability of an integrated nav. I don't like having any more devices "plugged in" to the car than necessary. But until the value provided by these systems catches up to modern GPS and mobile technology, accepting the status quo is voting for poorly valued systems with your wallet, and sending a message to the car makers to keep doing what they're doing. You can disagree all day long but I believe car buyers deserve better. I also feel sorry for any consumer who allows a dealer to tell him the value of a car based on their inside sales numbers and comps that only they have access to rather than a neutral valuation source -- I don't think they make a farm animal name for that one.

SW17LS

I'm not out to change the world, I'm just out to buy a car that I want. Honestly? I don't really care about "accepting the status quo" or whatever...I want to buy a new car...I want integrated nav...case closed. I'm not going to do without something that I want to send some "message" to some faceless corporation that won't make any difference anyways. If its really that important to you...then you should speak with your wallet and refuse to buy new cars at all until this injustice is done away with. You gave Lexus $42,000+ instead of $47,000+. If you think they even noticed you're kidding yourself.

I think we need a little perspective. They aren't murdering children here...they're charging more than you think is fair for a navigation option on a car that costs more than the average family makes in a year. I don't think this is "crusade worthy".

I'll ignore the continued thinly veiled insults and simply add that I did not say that neutral valuation sites weren't of value. I said that they are not what dealers use to value trade vehicles, and thats true. They may offer accurate info, they may not. I've gotten more than KBB value for cars, and I've gotten less. I always make sure that I'm getting a fair value by getting multiple offers, doing my own comparative evaluation based on sales of similar vehicles to mine on the open market.

Last car I traded was listed CPO for $2,000 more than they paid me for it, which I think is fair.

dasbuch

Lol... if you felt insulted then I just need to bow out here before more toes get crushed. I'll just leave it with enjoy your nav system, it sounds like you configured your car in a way that's right for you.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

I think that's a good idea given continued commentary.