dojoman

iTrader: (5)

If you're loosing 80% of your money on #3 you're doing it wrong.

larry13

lol now thats funny

Aeromotive

Like people said, navigation systems typically come in packages, especially for the 3IS in Canada. This means you have to have nav if you want this or that other option.
Whenever I need to go somewhere (locally) I just check Google Maps on my laptop before leaving home and I memorize my way (because i know my cities very well so it makes it easier to memorize). For 99% of my driving I don't need a gps, and for the other 1% I could use my phone... however that drains my battery so I'd rather use the car's system.

Im2bz2p345

Exactly - especially in this market!

~ Im2bz2p345

Dark9t316

I'm guess that's why after people trade in their wife a couple times, they file for bankruptcy.

rxonmymind

Lexus went with ML don't see why they couldn't go with Garmin or Tom Tom. Source the best and put it into the car. Like Apple who admitted their nav was less than stellar Lexus should stay out of mediocrity and do what they do best.

y2kfrost

I have the Nav on my vehicle and so far I have not had any issues with the Nav. It does ask me to re-route in heavy traffic. However, I do use a Garmin Navi for a back up just in case.

dasbuch

It would be nice but I doubt Garmin or Tom Tom want exclusivity agreements with a single car vendor. ML doesn't sell car or make stereos to anyone but Lexus (probably because there's too much competition there for them anyway). GPS mapping & software is a more difficult business to be in and requires a lot more resources -- I doubt Lexus would want to commit to being Garmin's sole customer nor would Garmin want to commit to selling only to Lexus.

If Lexus started offering Garmin as an option, they would spend more money trying to integrate it than the actual GPS is worth, then everyone would be forced to pay more for something they can get at a big box store for $100. Also every other car maker would just do the same.

I think that we are moving toward better phone integration with the car is probably the right thing to do. If they could figure out a way to make the car screen integrate effortlessly with offerings from Garmin/TomTom then that would be great, the consumer could choose their own auto GPS and there could be an interface standard that makes it all work together with the display mirroring to the car, the controller of the car working the UI of the GPS when needed, etc.

SW17LS

I completely disagree on all counts.

Resale: I've never bought a used car, but I've come close each time I've bought a new car over the past 10 years. Whenever I spot a good looking CPO car at a really great price...a click in reveals it has no nav. Luxury car buyers want navigation on the whole, and from my vantage point looking at CPO cars 3-4 years old...the cheap ones are the ones without nav...and that spread is way more than "a few hundred dollars".

Convenience: I just don't want to stick some aftermarket unit on my dash, deal with a cord, deal with a mount. I don't want to use my phone because I manipulate my phone when driving, I check texts and email at red lights, etc. I use the nav on an almost daily basis, and remembering to put up and plug in and unplug...obnoxious and then I have an ugly GPS unit and/or an ugmy mount in my nice interior all the time...no thanks.

Functionality: This I have never understood. Yes aftermarket units have more functions and features...but how many features do you need? I need the GPS to display a map on the screen when I'm not using it, and to give me guidance how to get someplace I don't know how to get to. Thats all. Traffic is a gimmick. My new Jeep reroutes for traffic dynamically and thats just annoying because there is no road here without traffic. I've used the Lexus system for 11 years now...it works fine. I've had two generations of Garmin in the Jeeps (Chrysler has Garmin built in) and in a portable I use for travel...I prefer the Lexus system even if the Garmin gives me more functions I don't want or need. The Garmin system in the Jeep is needlessly complex, has too many functions, and the routing logic is screwy as hell.

I would never buy a car again without built in nav, used or new...and I think more buyers are like me than you think, which is why its all but standard in anything but entry level luxury cars. I.E the only Lexus vehicles even available without nav are the IS, CT, ES and RX.

dasbuch

Naturally you're free to disagree as you choose, but please understand the difference between fact and opinion. My original post asks the potential challenger to compare the actual value of resale value a nav system in a used car relative to the original cost of the nav option. Note that in some used car value systems you should be looking at the value that the nav option in isolation adds to the value of the used car, NOT the overall cost of the car. Some valuation sites may or may not allow you to see the value of nav individually.

Your arguments here are more opinion than data. Not to discourage those of course, but stating that you'd never buy a car without a nav is a feeble attempt to challenge the statement that navs lose big on resale value. I'm only asking that you understand the difference between opinion and facts like the delta between new cost and resale.

I do agree however that some aspects of the discussion are subjective and a matter of preference. I'm all for integrated systems, I just wish these car manufacturers would (1) implement decent ones (2) stop fleecing their customers on map updates and (3) stop integrating the nav systems so tightly that if you ever run into a defect out of warranty, the nav unit alone is replacable for the couple of hundred bucks it really costs rather than the $8000 bill you'll really receive, ala "oh the nav system is integrated with the climate control and all those other parts so we have to replace the entire unit" has been heard by more than one chagrined customer.

When you can get a better performing Garmin with lifetime free map updates for something like $150, and take it with you to your next car, (or just use your phone) it makes the sticker shock of modern nav options seem really silly. These car makers are still living in the 90s with regard to nav and the sheep just continue to line up and take their spanking and say "thank you sir may I have another"

SW17LS

Valuation sites tell you nothing. All that matters in the end when pricing a used car or buying a used car is what the entire car is selling for on the actual open market. Buyers don't option up and select a used car, they select from the cars that are available and the options that are available on those cars at the particular time they are looking. In my experience shopping for CPO Lexus vehicles not having navigation significantly reduces the cost of a used Lexus, thus having navigation significantly increases its cost.

Remember too that when talking about a Lexus, navigation is never a stand alone option. It always comes with a package that gives you additional features for a package cost. Non-nav Lexus vehicles don't have enform, they don't have the RTC, so on and so forth.

All of this is just opinion, including your own posts. I'm challenging your "facts" that navigation is a big looser for resale. I think you're wrong. Your only "data" is "check online valuation sites". Thats not data.

Its all a matter of preference and its all subjective.

I think most of the OEM nav systems I've used are just fine.

This I can agree with.

I think you're over-stating the likelihood of this happening. I've been posting on Lexus forums for 15 years, Its pretty rare when you see somebody get stuck with a huge navigation repair bill and it not be something thats their fault. My old 2003 ES is still in the family at 170k miles and nearly 12 years of age, and the nav works as it did when it was new. Anyways, most of us aren't keeping these cars more than 3-4 years anyways, so the risk of these things happening to us are practically nonexistant. When the cars get old there will be plenty of salvage, used and remanufactured nav units available should failure occur.

You know the 3.5L V6 in the IS is like $18,000. Your argument is like saying that manufacturers shouldn't put such high end engines in a car because the customer wiill someday be stuck with that repair bill. Well...that argument is meaningless because that likely never would happen.

Like I said...I don't care if a Garmin was $5. I would not buy one, and I would not mount it on some ugly mount in my nice luxury car interior. Maybe if I bought a Corolla. But, I want my integrated OEM nav that gives me that functionality with the extra features, and maintains the interior styling as it was intended. The thing is already $40k+, $50k+...who cares about another $1500 for nav? If I lost that whole $1,500 on resale...who cares? You sell one of these things after 3 years you've lost 40-50% of its value anyways.

As for behavior of consumers...Consumers want built in OEM nav...obviously. You don't want that, so don't buy it, but don't tell the majority of consumers we're idiots or blast manufacturers for delivering the product most consumers want because you disagree.

JDR76

I bought nav in both of my cars because it's a feature I use daily and benefit from. I made up my own decision based on my needs and wants. Both of my cars were available without nav, but I chose to purchase it, not because I am a "sheep" who is incapable of making my own decisions.

ISISGUY

I'm going to contribute my 2 cents, because I feel I might offer a different perspective. When I was looking at buying my new car, I specifically looked for a non-nav model. Mainly because I'm very comfortable with my phone, and I feel that I would not lose too much on the resale value, or at least not enough to justify the extra 2-3 grand up front. Having said that, I did know that I would lose enform, back up camera, and the nice things that come with including nav.

My biggest issue with this is not that I would lose some of those nice to haves, but the fact that I now know how easy it would be to throw in nav, really, at no additional cost. Let me explain: Having the HD radio traffic, it will still tell me where I am, and the icon still moves with me on the display map in real time. The only function I'm losing is zooming in and turn by turn. So now, the question is, why didn't they just add in the whole system in the first place if it obviously could've been done easily.

But setting all that aside, I think the biggest issue in the discussion is cost vs value. I personally don't see the value because I still get traffic, and my phone will route me when I need to get routed somewhere. Not as streamlined as the built in nav, but gets the job done very well for me. Others will see value in getting nav and don't mind paying for it and that's ok, that's what manufacturers are counting on, that people will want it configured to their liking. But based on my experience, I would say that it's very easy for manufacturers to just throw it in and they are banking on the fact the they can still get people to pay for it.

dasbuch

Problem is the market varies from region to region. There is always some documentable source of a cars value, and that's the value that either a dealer will use on trade in or a private party will use to determine how the baseline amount they should pay for the car. If this fundamental concept escapes you, it's probably a waste of both of our time to discuss this further.

As far as data, go to KBB, Blackbook, etc and run the numbers with or without nav as I told you.

I could give you exact numbers for my region (the data you asked for), but they may be slightly different for your own region. Or if you prefer to remain comfortable in your present thinking, then feel free not to, its really up to you.

dasbuch

I'm sure their bean counters love to have the category of customer that doesn't mind overpaying for nav.