SW17LS

But its getting better. I feel your pain, I've got a Jeep. The interior is great, build quality is great, but reliability isn't there yet.

John510

Why would anyone shopping for a Sedan sell it and get a coupe Mustang? I want my click back. lol

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

In response to the original post... (and revised because I thought it was referring to sedans and not specifically coupes)

I think a 1-Series (soon to be 2-series) is more appropriate as the benchmark to what we're all talking about. The BMW 4-series and 3-series are the size of the older 5-series from the late 90's. With the RC it really does seem as if Lexus did their homework on the chassis and exterior but with no manual transmission offered and no LSD option on non-F vehicles I'm not interested. For the money I expect those options to be available.

Now all that said... will the 2015 Mustang lure ME as a potential Lexus RC buyer?

Yes it would.

Years ago I owned a 1969 Mustang and I hadn't really liked another post-1973 version until the 2011 model. That's a long time for a popular car to stay behind the times. There have been several very special editions worth driving and collecting over the years (2000 Cobra R anyone?) but those aside it hasn't impressed anyone in a long time.

I bought an SC300 5-speed because I always thought highly of the Lexus cars in my family but wanted a rear-drive stick-shift coupe with refinement AND some muscle. I had to add a lot of hardware from the Supra to get it up to a good standard of performance.

Now I realize that buying a very old used Lexus for the purposes of restoring it isn't the same thing as putting money down on a brand new one but this company hasn't offered an equivalent of the older model in years. And even then they stripped it of many options and features available on it's Japanese market equivalent.

Three features the 2015 Mustang has are exactly what I would expect the Lexus RC to have:

--available three-pedal manual transmission (I could care less about how much faster I can shift without one)
--available mechanical limited slip differential (i.e.: Torsen or equivalent)
--available robust 280-300+ horsepower turbocharged inline engine

I really like what I have seen of the Lexus RC but as pretty as it is I don't foresee those three things on the car's order sheet. The Mustang on the other hand has everything the USA-spec SC300 never got from the 90's Toyota Soarer.

So yes, I'd be guaranteed to buy a 2015 Mustang over an RC. And that's kind of sad because it's a truly great looking car. So far BMW is still doing the right stuff with the 1(2) Series. Everything I mentioned you CAN option on BMW's order sheet.

SW17LS

Here's the question (and please don't think I'm being rude), are you really a buyer for a $50,000+ new luxury coupe? If a manual transmission, a LSD and power are your main checkpoints I would venture to say the RC was never designed with you in mind anyways, nor was a 4 Series or A5. You can get a 4 series with a manual, but nobody buys them. We can make a long list of things the RC has a Mustang doesn't have, the style, the precision, the comfort, the quality, the refinement. If a manual, an LSD & the power plant (it has the power, just not an inline 6) is more important to you the RC wasn't designed for you.

I would challenge the idea that the RC is not a worthy successor to the SC. The RC has the style, the performance, a much better chassis.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

No, no. I didn't take it that way

I'd expect the price to be closer to $60k with the nonexistent options I mentioned but sure. If I were looking for a brand new car in this class I'm going to look at all the RWD higher end coupes that seem to fit the bill and any other offering that may not be a luxury marque but has the right chops. And the A5/S5 is one of my favorite current Audis. I would include the RS5 but it doesn't have... you guessed it: a 6-speed manual. I'm not interested in a Nurburgring lap time in a sub-$100k car. I just like shifting traditionally. The CTS-V Coupe 6-speed and ATS 2.0T 6-speed are also good examples of doing it right: offer the niche products within the lineup of broader appeal.

Having had seat time in some newer LS's and RX's I am sure that no matter how much better the Mustang's interior has become the RC will have a better one. Features and creature comforts I have no doubt would be no contest.

I agree that as-is the RC wasn't designed for me. The fact that it's an impressively refined luxury car should not automatically make such hardware anachronisms. Not everyone needs these options or even cares about them when buying a luxury car... but with a performance coupe at least offer them. BMW does and if the manual take rate is exceptionally lower on their regular cars it isn't so much on their M-badged 3/4-Series and 1-Series.

If the RC had a dual-clutch manual option... I'd still be annoyed that a non-supercar $50k-$60k performance coupe has no three-pedal manual option but I would accept it as making at least some sense given where modern technology is at. The absence of an available gear LSD in a car like this is just a head-scratcher. Especially when they want to convince buyers that they are taking performance seriously.

Comparing the SC chassis designed in 1990 to the new RC chassis there is going to be a huge evolutionary improvement in technology. The SC has a great chassis design that holds up even today but what I have read thus far indicates that the RC is going to be a great handler without sacrificing ride quality. I look forward to seeing it in comparisons and seeing it up close.

I don't agree that the RC is a true replacement for it, however, because the two cars were designed with different priorities in mind. The SC/Soarer was intended as a traditional grand touring coupe with a long nose and short rear. It was never designed or intended to contend with the likes of an M3/M4. The RC, on the other hand, has to to compete. The LF-LC concept is a lot closer to the overall impression of the original SC.

As for the Mustang, I think it's great that it's changed for the better such that it's got some quality with its performance. I do wish Lexus would pay some attention to discerning performance-minded buyers with the RC but as you say, they're offering to a different kind of buyer.

SW17LS

The key term here is "If you were looking for a brand new car in this class". The question is, "is someone who is actually looking for a $50,000+ luxury coupe going to cross shop a Mustang?". You know as well as I do that performance is an afterthought for the majority of buyers. People who are looking for this sort of car aren't going to even drive a Mustang. The demographic is entirely different. I can sit here and post about how I'd choose a Lamborghini over a Ferrari, but that discussion cannot be attributed to how people who are actually buyers in the exotic segment will behave.

For instance I'm in a group that could buy an RC, and would buy an RC...I wouldn't buy a Mustang no matter how incredible it was. I wouldn't buy a Corvette. Those cars are just not the sort of car I'm interested in, thats going to be the case for other buyers in this group too. The new Mustang, while a great looking car isn't the sort of car I would want to drive around in.

Lexus just isn't that sort of company, they aren't going to design manual transmissions when they know nobody wants them. I'm a buyer who doesn't only not care about a manual (as are probably 95% of people), I actively do not want a manual. So why would I care if a car company offers one? Most buyers are going to be that way.

I don't think we know it doesn't have a gear LSD yet...the IS-F had an LSD, a Torsen after 2010. Why would we assume an RC-F would not?

I think the RC-F will do that just fine.

Glashub

'Nuff said. That is the Mustang brand and allure summed up in one picture. No other brand has that. Click through the link to enjoy pictures of the King of Cool -- Steve McQueen.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...otographs.html

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Okay that's fair enough regarding exotics and I agree that someone looking for a prestigious everyday car is probably going to look at Benz, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Volvo and Cadillac (I can't in good conscience include Acura) rather than anything with the Ford or Chevy badge. That's the reality.

By and large the segment is not going to be affected by people like me but I'm someone who sees the look and internal hardware of a car first no matter what its badge indicates for its heritage and prestige. For instance, a front wheel drive car of ANY make above $30k makes no sense to me. The ES and Benz CLA (AMG model excluded) are included in this as is the upcoming BMW front-drive 1-Series... I just don't understand what I'm supposed to be paying for in those cases. When I see a beautiful car like the RC and then get disappointed that it doesn't even offer performance hardware available on a much lesser non-luxury car that has vaguely similar intentions... it's just annoying and it wasn't always this way with luxury automakers.

In the same way you feel a Chevrolet Corvette and Ford Mustang are cars you would never want to drive around in I feel the same way about an ES or RX. I actually do like the Lexus brand in general and when they make an interesting model I'm going to take notice but I'm not so tied to any company's brand image to the point that I'm going to ignore great engineering focused on the driver just because it comes from a brand that doesn't directly compare to my core preferences.

As a buyer I care about the driving experience and driver engagement first and foremost. That doesn't mean I am not interested in a car that balances that experience with refinement and nice leather and wood trim.

Many buyers who would be in the market for a Lexus will not think this way and that's OK.


It's not that nobody wants manual transmissions. The kind of cars they have made helped in no small part with the way they are marketed has drawn in a majority of buyers who simply aren't interested in manuals-- as you yourself state. Yet, if I lament this and look around at other manufacturer's offerings that in some cases may not even be in the same class and category of vehicle... what does that say about me? I like the RC and I think it will be a great car, but if I'm going to spend the money it commands I still want what I want from the car. You're right, most buyers won't and don't care and sadly neither does Lexus. It is not that nobody at all wants a stick-shift in an RC, just too few for Lexus to justify the extra cost. I thought Akio Toyoda might have a word to say about this to Lexus brass since he's such a car enthusiast himself but I suppose not.



I wasn't speaking about the RC-F. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to the regular RC line. Lexus offered an LSD option on the first generation IS300 and that wasn't the fastest car in their stable by far. So far they have not bothered to offer a Torsen LSD on any IS (or RC) that isn't an F model despite the R&D and parts being readily available. I would also not be surprised if they tried some form of electronic differential control on the RC-F rather than use a mechanical setup.

I'd be happy if they proved me wrong though. I would assume all of this for the same reasons we are having this discussion in the first place: Lexus isn't catering to niche buyers.


Honestly I think it will be a great car! I am looking forward to seeing one in person. Lexus has not tried to produce a car like this in years and it's pretty special. I still wouldn't personally buy one unless it came with a stick and an LSD regardless of it being an RC-F or not but the car itself should turn some heads and impress. I'm looking forward to the official release and details.

Addendum: I will add this on the note of the lack of an available manual transmission on the RC. I understand that this is a contentious subject and that it's getting harder to find stick-shifts even from BMW's offerings today. I think Lexus would make a lot of people like me stop complaining if they at least offered a dual-clutch electronic manual gearbox option on the RC (not just the RC-F) alongside their standard 8-speed automatic. No, it's not at all the same experience as a traditional stick but it is the CORRECT evolutionary replacement for a traditional performance manual transmission.

Now I'd be very surprised if the RC-F is not offered with one of those.

SW17LS

Because you aren't the target buyer. The ES & RX are the best selling vehicles in the Lexus line. They sell more than all the other Lexus models combined. People pass up the IS at the same price point as the IS every day. When you're making objective predictions about how a model will do you have to take your own biases out of the equation and look at how that model is going to play in its specific segment and with the buyers in that segment, even if you aren't one.

All kinds of carmakers are coming out with FWD luxury or near luxury sedans now because the market is there. Most buyers are not enthusiasts, and they really don't care what wheels are driving the car. If anything they LIKE FWD because they feel there is some traction benefit.

Thats business. Why spend the R&D dollars on something that you know less than probably 2% of buyers are going to want? As someone who actively doesn't want a manual I'm happy for them to spend R&D dollars on things that I will want. Manuals are just a PITA with the traffic around here.

Seing that they started with an electronic control in the IS-F and went to a mechanical setup, I bet both the RC-F and the GS-F will have a mechanical setup.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Believe it or not some folks simply don't know what they want. I see it all the time, they come in for a sedan and end up with a SUV and vice versa. Conventional ICE vs Hybrid. FWD vs AWD. But certainly an enthusiast is less likely to shop a sedan against a coupe vs a typical consumer

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

I know they sell more of both those models than anything else in their lineup and I do understand that as a business they have to look to their core customers with those models. It's great for their business and I think profits are wonderful but as a buyer I personally don't care as it is of no benefit to me. I'm not criticizing the fact that Lexus needs to examine and sell to a large potential buyer base.

I know and that's fine from a company's business standpoint but again, as a buyer I DO know the difference and wouldn't consider such offerings. The traction benefit is there, sure, if that's all one is looking for. I only stated my preference and opinion on that subject to clarify my main point that some people like myself will be folks who appreciate a driver oriented experience first and the looks and creature comforts second.

I'm well aware that puts me in a minority but just as the big picture and bottom line is more important to the luxury automaker the basics of a car's design are more important to me. I wouldn't care how nice looking and loaded with features a front-drive luxury car is-- it would be a waste of money to my mind.

Anyway, the RC isn't FWD so I don't want to tangent any farther on that one. I'm the one who brought it up.

Try heavy traffic in Los Angeles every day. I drove two manual cars there over the last five years, both with heavier full-face clutches than factory and very soon I'll be moving back there to do exactly the same thing all over again. I didn't find the transmission to be a pain in bad traffic at all. It's the traffic I was frustrated at. All an automatic means is that you have two less physical controls to operate. It doesn't cure the annoyance of a rolling parking lot at rush hour.

Besides... rush hour isn't all day. When you're out of it you can actually drive your car normally and enjoy the experience.

Look, I am NOT knocking your preference for automatics. I'll say again: I am NOT knocking your preference. My girlfriend can drive manuals expertly but she's just not interested any longer and bought herself her second automatic car in a row.

I just don't personally feel it is an inherently difficult operational process in traffic. That's my own opinion based on experience and since we have two different preferences I think it hits on the point that one isn't necessarily better than the other.

One owner/driver wants one interface and one owner/driver wants another. That should be why there is transmission choice on the option sheet for most models.

If the automaker decides it isn't worth it despite stellar efforts on the rest of their automobile then it will make me look elsewhere. Eventually hybrid-electrics will shatter the entire concept of what transmission a car needs whether we like it or not. Until that time comes I'll happily buy a car offered with a stick the way I like it. Barring that I'll get into an electronic dual-clutch car.

Yes, they did it wrong and decided to do it right but we'll just have to wait until the official release comes.

SW17LS

That doesn't surprise me at all, I've seen it when I've been at dealerships.

It does benefit you, because of those volume cars they can build lower volume, higher end, higher performance cars that you might care about. There would be no Mustang without the Fiesta or the Econoline van.

But in an objective discussion about the industry or a specific vehicles potential performance within a segment our biases aren't applicable. Remember, its not "Will the 2015 Mustang lure KhanBB6 away from the 3IS", its "Will the 2015 Mustang lure potential 3IS buyers". Since you are not a potential 3IS buyer or an RC buyer...see my point?

I think thats the issue. Its something you would not purchase, not a "waste of money". One is a declaration of your own preferences, the other is a value judgement that reflects on and denigrates the preferences of others.

Thats fine, but that doesn't change the fact that for the vast majority of drivers a manual transmission is not attractive. The proof of that is in the sales. People don't want to control their cars at all, if they made a car today that would drive itself, it would sell. As a car enthusiast I also find that a sad truth, but its a truth none the less.

I would never even consider buying a car with a manual at this point in my life, and 98% of consumers in this price bracket are the same way. So, we cannot fault an automaker for not offering something that their demographic doesn't want. Rush hour here is all day, I'm on the phone and working when I'm in the car (as are a lot of people who can afford $50,000+ cars). When I can enjoy driving, I enjoy driving my GS very much. Automatic and all.

Given your discussion of what is most important to you in a car, I don't think Lexus is the right brand for you.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Actually it's the Transit now but yes, the volume cars need to be there for an automaker to decide to offer something niche. The difference here is that Lexus is planning to sell a coupe that is less niche than a Mustang in terms of driver interface. Ford isn't trying to be a luxury automaker, obviously.

This is very obvious economics. All I meant by my comment is that unless Lexus offers what I am looking for I don't see myself buying something that's close but no cigar. The entire reason I've been discussing the RC with you is because I happen to like it other than that I know it won't be available in a trim level I'd be willing to buy.

There is no benefit if the performance niche cars Lexus is offering aren't what I would be willing to purchase.

Now, many other people? Sure! I think they won't have a problem with the 8-speed automatic. More power to them if they are happy with that.



You're asking me to acknowledge a point you have already made in previous posts that I figured we were already on the same page about. I'm sorry I bothered to respond to this thread with my honest thoughts about why a potentially very good car might need a couple of added features to sway buyers like myself.


Would you have felt differently about this had I added the words "…to me."? This is also an impression that was not my intention. On the note of my own personal value judgement I'll stand by my words. Why must I personally profess to like a certain type of vehicle that sells in volumes but which isn't very interesting to me? Were I employed by an automaker I could see the need to do that but this is nothing more than an opinion on my part. I visited a Cadillac dealer with a friend who wanted to cross-shop small SUV's against the Mercedes GLK. It was a sea of FWD offerings but when we asked there were no AWD versions for her to test drive. Obviously the MSRP would have been higher but that is what she wanted-- an AWD. It wasn't her cup of tea either. It might have gone further if we didn't both think that, despite shortcomings, the RX and GLK were both night and day differences compared to the forgettable Cadillac.


We both agree on this. Such cars will be available in about six years. I can see many benefits but one major possible downside: the more people buy computer-driven cars the more the roads will be full of them. It will not only make manually controlled cars that embrace the driver scarce but it might also legally force manually driven cars from highways among other things. That would take time but it could happen.


My car and my last one have handsfree systems wired in and my phone is usually on most of the time as well. Don't assume just because I drive an anachronism every day that I'm not also doing the same thing. I'm not sure how working mobile, something the majority of people in this country do in just about every type of car available, has any bearing on this discussion.

If you don't like manual transmissions then you don't like manual transmissions. The GS was never offered with one and given the style of car that it is I actually don't think it would make sense to have offered one. I don't have a problem with the GS series and I think they are fine and fun cars. Not my thing but I can appreciate them nonetheless.

...And yet I own one, painstakingly maintained and restored that actually came with a manual transmission and has a factory Toyota LSD I had fitted into the rear. It's one of two such models the company ever offered, the second and last being the 1st and 2nd IS.

Again, I am struck by the fact that you are specifically focused on which BRAND is not right for me and I am focused on which CAR is or is not right for me. I could care less which brand offers the right car as long as it is offered and is a quality vehicle.

I do like the Lexus brand but they aren't selling what I would ultimately buy. Having experienced this model I thought they might actually do it. As I said previously, if the RC had a dual-clutch electronic manual option I might actually give it a second thought.

SW17LS

My point was that the discussion was whether or not the new Mustang would steal buyers from the 3IS...and by extension the RC. Since you aren't a 3IS or RC buyer, thats not really the topic of the thread. The question is what effect if any the Mustang will have on 3IS buyers. If you had a 3IS and you were in here saying "man, if that mustang were out I'd have gotten that" or if you were shopping for a 3IS and came in and said "I'm going to wait to drive that Mustang before I buy" that would be a different story.

Because I don't want to be shifting gears while I'm trying to talk on the phone with my clients, jotting notes, etc. Why are you trying to convince me to like a manual? I don't want a manual, I never will. Bottom line. I was simply giving you my reasons.

The BMW 5 series is offered in a manual, the GS' direct competition. Why the GS shouldn't have a manual by your logic but the RC should doesn't make any sense. Same platform, same power train...

But you don't really. You have an old Lexus that you have modified to fit your needs. Lexus doesn't offer anything that fits these needs.

Then how can you say you like the Lexus brand? In order to like a brand you have to like and appreciate the products they produce...you like what you think the Lexus brand should be...not what it is.

My point is that every brand has a target demographic. Not every brand is going to appeal to every customer. If you're looking for a luxury coupe I would suggest a 4 Series with a mechanical LSD, inline 6 engine, fully manual gearbox. They are not targeting you as a consumer.

axis77

ive been around for 36 years now and i have never ever like any mustang period..not even the shelbys or cobras or eleanors same goes for corvettes as well, BUT the stingray 2014 is the best looking one so far, and its the same price as a new IS-F. the new mustang 2014 looks the most decent almost reminds me of hints a Bentley GT Coupe, but i would never buy anything that would depreciate that fast in value..which is most american made cars.