3 German sports sedans the Lexus IS350 can spank on an autocross
08-22-13, 01:45 PM
#31
Since my last car was an A4 2.0T (M / T, quattro) I agree with you 95%.
Audi knows how to charge for their cars. Their package of equipment is very expensive, and when you set them up online so ends up with about the same price tag as a IS350 F-sport with similar equipment. Since I had the Audi so I looked at a new course before I chose Lexus. IS350 does not exist in Sweden, so my options were IS250 or IS300h. For the same price as a fully equipped IS300h I get an A4 2.0T 225hp (updated engine for model year 2014) with manual transmission and FWD. But WITHOUT any active safety systems. A4 is significantly faster 0-62, but it requires much more fuel too. I will sacrifice a few seconds on accelleration from rest to get a car that is both highly secure and efficient. IS300h is almost up with the A4 in overtaking. In addition, the new IS more comfortable and luxurious than A4.
S4 is even worse. Fun to drive, sure, but it costs. Doubled consumption and a price tag more than 20% higher compared with IS300h.
CVT gearbox is not the funniest thing on maknaden, but in S mode is quite ok. Together with the hybrid powertrain, there is no better gearbox. I test drove the Audi A6 Hybrid before I decided, and it has 8 speed tiptronic. Really not correct transmission for a hybrid. Clear jerk every time the gasoline engine started or stopping during the journey. Far from premium.
For the price I paid for my IS300h there were many other cars to choose from, but Lexus is building the world's best hybrids so the choice was obvious.
Certainly, the above test is not about hybrids, but the Lexus quality is in all their cars. And the cost is really not that much in comparison.
Audi knows how to charge for their cars. Their package of equipment is very expensive, and when you set them up online so ends up with about the same price tag as a IS350 F-sport with similar equipment. Since I had the Audi so I looked at a new course before I chose Lexus. IS350 does not exist in Sweden, so my options were IS250 or IS300h. For the same price as a fully equipped IS300h I get an A4 2.0T 225hp (updated engine for model year 2014) with manual transmission and FWD. But WITHOUT any active safety systems. A4 is significantly faster 0-62, but it requires much more fuel too. I will sacrifice a few seconds on accelleration from rest to get a car that is both highly secure and efficient. IS300h is almost up with the A4 in overtaking. In addition, the new IS more comfortable and luxurious than A4.
S4 is even worse. Fun to drive, sure, but it costs. Doubled consumption and a price tag more than 20% higher compared with IS300h.
CVT gearbox is not the funniest thing on maknaden, but in S mode is quite ok. Together with the hybrid powertrain, there is no better gearbox. I test drove the Audi A6 Hybrid before I decided, and it has 8 speed tiptronic. Really not correct transmission for a hybrid. Clear jerk every time the gasoline engine started or stopping during the journey. Far from premium.
For the price I paid for my IS300h there were many other cars to choose from, but Lexus is building the world's best hybrids so the choice was obvious.
Certainly, the above test is not about hybrids, but the Lexus quality is in all their cars. And the cost is really not that much in comparison.
I think we have to compare and hold cars to their performance levels first, and in the luxury bracket, also to their amenities. If i built an A4 equivalent to the IS350 F-sport, it wouldn't exist. It would have to be a S4 without their quattro. I'd give them the supercharger cause an extra 30HP won't change the game too much. Weight/tranny/ratios will have a bigger affect but im digressing now.
Secondly i would compare prices. If you do this comparison the other way around you are comparing men and not machines. This is why I think Audi puts the checkbook before the driver. BMW is somewhere in the middle (although they're slipping somewhat in the performance) and Lexus just gives it away.
If you build the car this way and then compare the prices, Audi is not looking to compete against the car but against the brand/badge. Which then leaves it up to the buyer to justify the price for any of the vehicles. my argument of course is coming from an enthusiasts point of view where performance out weighs the badge. And we are not their most profitable audience/market . The target audience are the adults who care more about luxury features than performance. There will be much more non-fsports than fsports with any brand. you really HAVE to want a track car (M3) to justify the price that would've easily been a nicely loaded 535i. IS350 F-Sport vs Mom's GS. but anyways...
08-22-13, 01:56 PM
#32
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I'm not familiar with the 300h (not offered as an IS in the states) so i have nothing to compare it to. We do have an ES300h which come to think of it would be a better comparison to the base A4 chassis wise. The ES is a bit bigger so it wouldn't be the best comparison and of course I'm talking about the non-hybrid version which.
I think we have to compare and hold cars to their performance levels first, and in the luxury bracket, also to their amenities. If i built an A4 equivalent to the IS350 F-sport, it wouldn't exist. It would have to be a S4 without their quattro. I'd give them the supercharger cause an extra 30HP won't change the game too much. Weight/tranny/ratios will have a bigger affect but im digressing now.
Secondly i would compare prices. If you do this comparison the other way around you are comparing men and not machines. This is why I think Audi puts the checkbook before the driver. BMW is somewhere in the middle (although they're slipping somewhat in the performance) and Lexus just gives it away.
If you build the car this way and then compare the prices, Audi is not looking to compete against the car but against the brand/badge. Which then leaves it up to the buyer to justify the price for any of the vehicles. my argument of course is coming from an enthusiasts point of view where performance out weighs the badge. And we are not their most profitable audience/market . The target audience are the adults who care more about luxury features than performance. There will be much more non-fsports than fsports with any brand. you really HAVE to want a track car (M3) to justify the price that would've easily been a nicely loaded 535i. IS350 F-Sport vs Mom's GS. but anyways...
I think we have to compare and hold cars to their performance levels first, and in the luxury bracket, also to their amenities. If i built an A4 equivalent to the IS350 F-sport, it wouldn't exist. It would have to be a S4 without their quattro. I'd give them the supercharger cause an extra 30HP won't change the game too much. Weight/tranny/ratios will have a bigger affect but im digressing now.
Secondly i would compare prices. If you do this comparison the other way around you are comparing men and not machines. This is why I think Audi puts the checkbook before the driver. BMW is somewhere in the middle (although they're slipping somewhat in the performance) and Lexus just gives it away.
If you build the car this way and then compare the prices, Audi is not looking to compete against the car but against the brand/badge. Which then leaves it up to the buyer to justify the price for any of the vehicles. my argument of course is coming from an enthusiasts point of view where performance out weighs the badge. And we are not their most profitable audience/market . The target audience are the adults who care more about luxury features than performance. There will be much more non-fsports than fsports with any brand. you really HAVE to want a track car (M3) to justify the price that would've easily been a nicely loaded 535i. IS350 F-Sport vs Mom's GS. but anyways...
I don't think 95% of the population could justify anything above $30K other than for badge status. The magazines all review cars going around race tracks and cones. How often does someone stuck commuting bumper to bumper at 20 MPH on the 405 do that?
08-22-13, 02:06 PM
#33
The thing about my Fsport and Acura TL SH-AWD is that I love driving them so much I'll go out to Malibu or drive to Cambria just to drive wide open roads. Those cars broaden my horizons.
The Genesis I owned loaded with every tech a person could want but a so-so driving experience stayed put in the driveway until I had to go some where.
The Genesis I owned loaded with every tech a person could want but a so-so driving experience stayed put in the driveway until I had to go some where.
08-23-13, 01:05 AM
#34
Pole Position
Thread Starter
I suspect since the F-Sport has the staggered set-up with its wider rear wheels, it's much harder to cause power oversteer ( ie drift) when negotiating the cones. Drift = more fun but probably slower overall autocross times.
F-Sport would be faster than non F-Sport due to the better grip from the wider rear wheels but less tossable than the non F-Sport.
08-23-13, 01:27 AM
#35
I'm not familiar with the 300h (not offered as an IS in the states) so i have nothing to compare it to. We do have an ES300h which come to think of it would be a better comparison to the base A4 chassis wise. The ES is a bit bigger so it wouldn't be the best comparison and of course I'm talking about the non-hybrid version which.
I think we have to compare and hold cars to their performance levels first, and in the luxury bracket, also to their amenities. If i built an A4 equivalent to the IS350 F-sport, it wouldn't exist. It would have to be a S4 without their quattro. I'd give them the supercharger cause an extra 30HP won't change the game too much. Weight/tranny/ratios will have a bigger affect but im digressing now.
Secondly i would compare prices. If you do this comparison the other way around you are comparing men and not machines. This is why I think Audi puts the checkbook before the driver. BMW is somewhere in the middle (although they're slipping somewhat in the performance) and Lexus just gives it away.
If you build the car this way and then compare the prices, Audi is not looking to compete against the car but against the brand/badge. Which then leaves it up to the buyer to justify the price for any of the vehicles. my argument of course is coming from an enthusiasts point of view where performance out weighs the badge. And we are not their most profitable audience/market . The target audience are the adults who care more about luxury features than performance. There will be much more non-fsports than fsports with any brand. you really HAVE to want a track car (M3) to justify the price that would've easily been a nicely loaded 535i. IS350 F-Sport vs Mom's GS. but anyways...
I think we have to compare and hold cars to their performance levels first, and in the luxury bracket, also to their amenities. If i built an A4 equivalent to the IS350 F-sport, it wouldn't exist. It would have to be a S4 without their quattro. I'd give them the supercharger cause an extra 30HP won't change the game too much. Weight/tranny/ratios will have a bigger affect but im digressing now.
Secondly i would compare prices. If you do this comparison the other way around you are comparing men and not machines. This is why I think Audi puts the checkbook before the driver. BMW is somewhere in the middle (although they're slipping somewhat in the performance) and Lexus just gives it away.
If you build the car this way and then compare the prices, Audi is not looking to compete against the car but against the brand/badge. Which then leaves it up to the buyer to justify the price for any of the vehicles. my argument of course is coming from an enthusiasts point of view where performance out weighs the badge. And we are not their most profitable audience/market . The target audience are the adults who care more about luxury features than performance. There will be much more non-fsports than fsports with any brand. you really HAVE to want a track car (M3) to justify the price that would've easily been a nicely loaded 535i. IS350 F-Sport vs Mom's GS. but anyways...
Audi definitely puts the checkbook before the driver. Their point of wiew is high price = premium. I reality that's not the case. They have well built cars, but not THAT good. In the secondary market, one can however find a good copy for sensible price.
Lexus is cheaper, has the same or better build quality, and is more fun to drive.
08-24-13, 10:35 AM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yeah everyone I talked to said the a4 was so outmatched it wasn't even funny. I knew the base A6 was a 4 cylinder CVT but it never occurred to me so was the A4.
Internetz is really quiet about that and how Lexus is dominating in comparisons. Now they rather talk **** about the grill.
Internetz is really quiet about that and how Lexus is dominating in comparisons. Now they rather talk **** about the grill.
08-24-13, 11:41 AM
#37
Yeah everyone I talked to said the a4 was so outmatched it wasn't even funny. I knew the base A6 was a 4 cylinder CVT but it never occurred to me so was the A4.
Internetz is really quiet about that and how Lexus is dominating in comparisons. Now they rather talk **** about the grill.
Internetz is really quiet about that and how Lexus is dominating in comparisons. Now they rather talk **** about the grill.
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