Had a chance to ride in and sit in a 14' 350 F-Sport, rambling thoughts vs 07 IS350
07-06-13, 02:07 AM
#61
This is why I encourage everyone to simply express their opinion of the car, rather than pretending to be God and negatively expressing their opinion of another forum member's opinion - thereby denying the other person of an opinion altogether...
07-06-13, 08:19 AM
#62
Pole Position
There's nothing to justify.
I own a 2nd Gen GS lol and I have no personal investment in either the 2nd or 3rd gen IS.
As of now, I'm making up my mind between a 3rd Gen IS, 4th Gen GS or even the Infiniti Q50 as my future car purchase. There's a very good reason I never upgraded to the 2nd Gen IS or 3rd Gen GS and it all boiled down to my personal test-DRIVE : their handling and ride was lacking for me.
OTOH, I was very impressed by the quantum leaps the new IS and GS have made in their ride/handling balance. How did I know that? Also by test-DRIVING the cars in question
I'm just calling it as I see it : it is patently ridiculous to make any credible assertions of a car's handling without actually DRIVING it.
Let's put this to the acid test : would any of you posters supporting the credibility of DrivenSoul's "handling review" EVER buy a car just after sitting in it as a passenger and without personally test-driving it yourself?
NO right???!! Why?
Because we are people with common sense and we all know as right thinking persons that driving a car is the only way to get a true measure of a car.
Last edited by natnut; 07-07-13 at 12:35 AM.
07-06-13, 09:36 AM
#63
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No, I wouldn't, but I wouldn't buy a car based on his review even if he DID drive it, so I'm not really sure what your point is suppose to be. His OPINION isn't invalidated simply because you disagree with it.
As far as "why?" because I want to formulate my own opinions on a vehicle I may be interested in.
As far as "why?" because I want to formulate my own opinions on a vehicle I may be interested in.
07-06-13, 09:41 AM
#64
I totally agree with you.
07-06-13, 01:13 PM
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natnut it sounds like you've done plenty of your own test drives and whatnot. You can't after a while just develop your senses to get an impression of a car without needing the touch of a plastic gas pedal or have your hands wrapped around a wheel? It's hardly an innovative idea.
I used to be a car salesman as well as a valet driver. Even when I parked someone's car and never went over 20 mph, I just trained myself on the job to try to get an impression of the car while turning, feeling how responsive the brakes were when I got on them, and maybe a light dab of the throttle. It's not a full-blown investigation of the car, it's simply an impression. I keep getting the feeling that you're putting too many words in my mouth and refuse to admit it. I have said it too many times to remember but I have never said anything about the way it handled...
I was actually trying to convince my mom to buy a GS instead, but she refused to because it was too big. But I have to admit the 2006 GS300 I "test drove" was probably the most uninvolving car I've ever driven. But you know... That could be good if you don't care about performance and just want to ride on a cloud wherever you go. The 2IS has similar feelings to me although a little better than the GS when compared to the BMW... I noticed it right away after 10 years of being familiar with the BMW 330i. The gear changes are less natural, the steering feedback is almost non-existent b/c the BMW wheel jumped over cat-eyes on the road, and the handling just feels odd and not confidence-inspiring on the IS350. But you know why I told her to get it anyway? It doesn't matter. You drive any car for more than 2 hours and as long as everything is well-maintained and in one piece, it's going to feel normal to you. Your head will wrap around it and call it normal. Even my mom missed the weighted, lively hydraulic steering of the BMW at first and so do I. But it's gone now. And the best I can do is just start off on a new slate and get used to the 2IS now.
What I'm trying to say is unless you plan on owning a 2IS and 3IS side by side, differences you feel won't matter much after owning something for a week, unless something is horribly wrong. I drove with an off-toe alignment for quite a while and it felt "fine" to me. Maybe it was off a little but my mind dealt with it, after a fresh alignment. WOW for sure it felt a lot better! Now a few months later.. That new change, difference subsided away and it just feels like before I got an alignment again. But I have no doubt in my mind that if I had a duplicate of my car with the bad alignment again and drove the 2 side-by-side... You'd notice a huge difference,
So if the new IS is 5-10% better than the outgoing model... It's not that much of a change to me. For someone who already has an older 2IS, meh. For someone new to the market, it would make sense to just go new and get the improvements. All I'm saying is there are two sides to every story and I don't know about you, but I don't always feel the same about a subjective thing like "driving feel"... Things like that simply can't be set in stone and always taken in one direction. Everyone has their own take and ideas on it and hell they even change their opinions on it... An opinion is an opinion. If you think someone's is wrong state your side of the story, attacking the other person doesn't do anything for anyone.
I used to be a car salesman as well as a valet driver. Even when I parked someone's car and never went over 20 mph, I just trained myself on the job to try to get an impression of the car while turning, feeling how responsive the brakes were when I got on them, and maybe a light dab of the throttle. It's not a full-blown investigation of the car, it's simply an impression. I keep getting the feeling that you're putting too many words in my mouth and refuse to admit it. I have said it too many times to remember but I have never said anything about the way it handled...
I was actually trying to convince my mom to buy a GS instead, but she refused to because it was too big. But I have to admit the 2006 GS300 I "test drove" was probably the most uninvolving car I've ever driven. But you know... That could be good if you don't care about performance and just want to ride on a cloud wherever you go. The 2IS has similar feelings to me although a little better than the GS when compared to the BMW... I noticed it right away after 10 years of being familiar with the BMW 330i. The gear changes are less natural, the steering feedback is almost non-existent b/c the BMW wheel jumped over cat-eyes on the road, and the handling just feels odd and not confidence-inspiring on the IS350. But you know why I told her to get it anyway? It doesn't matter. You drive any car for more than 2 hours and as long as everything is well-maintained and in one piece, it's going to feel normal to you. Your head will wrap around it and call it normal. Even my mom missed the weighted, lively hydraulic steering of the BMW at first and so do I. But it's gone now. And the best I can do is just start off on a new slate and get used to the 2IS now.
What I'm trying to say is unless you plan on owning a 2IS and 3IS side by side, differences you feel won't matter much after owning something for a week, unless something is horribly wrong. I drove with an off-toe alignment for quite a while and it felt "fine" to me. Maybe it was off a little but my mind dealt with it, after a fresh alignment. WOW for sure it felt a lot better! Now a few months later.. That new change, difference subsided away and it just feels like before I got an alignment again. But I have no doubt in my mind that if I had a duplicate of my car with the bad alignment again and drove the 2 side-by-side... You'd notice a huge difference,
So if the new IS is 5-10% better than the outgoing model... It's not that much of a change to me. For someone who already has an older 2IS, meh. For someone new to the market, it would make sense to just go new and get the improvements. All I'm saying is there are two sides to every story and I don't know about you, but I don't always feel the same about a subjective thing like "driving feel"... Things like that simply can't be set in stone and always taken in one direction. Everyone has their own take and ideas on it and hell they even change their opinions on it... An opinion is an opinion. If you think someone's is wrong state your side of the story, attacking the other person doesn't do anything for anyone.
07-06-13, 02:58 PM
#66
1) Because we are humans, we all make mistakes, so we can't be too "self-righteous" in what we say.
2) Equivalently, we can't pretend to be God and too "judgemental"; only God can judge others.
3) Furthermore, it is important to respect another forum member's opinion, whether we agree or disagree with that opinion.
4) Focus on giving a direct opinion of the car itself, rather than negatively quoting, and giving a negative opinion of another forum member's opinion.
We want to hear opinions about the car, not opinions about another member's opinion.
For example, on the first point above, it was only last year that a member said:
"Some posters predicted that 4GS sales would be underwhelming, contrary to my own expectations...".
"...At the very least, the 4GS is selling much better than the 3GS -- as it should --- it's a much better car and the market has correspondingly voted with their wallets".
In its debut year of 2012, 4GS sales was only 22,160, versus 33,457 3GS in 2005, in the USA.
Furthermore, it has turned out that the first 6 months of 2013, the 4GS has amassed 9,068 in the USA, giving an estimated 2013 grand total of around 18,136 sales; well below its 2006 equivalent predecessor of 27,390.
It all boils down to experience.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
The 4GS has a more rigid platform, and firmer springs for much sharper steering - great for journalists and the enthusiast.
However, do remember that in life, we humans are infallible and often take 3 steps forwards and 1 step backwards - such that the stylish, soft riding, quiet 3GS captured the mass public's signature on the dotted line, in a way that the new 4GS has not been able to attain.
The new sharp handling 4GS is selling at about two thirds the rate of the 3GS.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
In the end, we must be careful about being too self-righteous about our opinion, and too judgemental on other people's opinions.
The OP did title that they're just "rambling thoughts" too...
2) Equivalently, we can't pretend to be God and too "judgemental"; only God can judge others.
3) Furthermore, it is important to respect another forum member's opinion, whether we agree or disagree with that opinion.
4) Focus on giving a direct opinion of the car itself, rather than negatively quoting, and giving a negative opinion of another forum member's opinion.
We want to hear opinions about the car, not opinions about another member's opinion.
For example, on the first point above, it was only last year that a member said:
"Some posters predicted that 4GS sales would be underwhelming, contrary to my own expectations...".
"...At the very least, the 4GS is selling much better than the 3GS -- as it should --- it's a much better car and the market has correspondingly voted with their wallets".
In its debut year of 2012, 4GS sales was only 22,160, versus 33,457 3GS in 2005, in the USA.
Furthermore, it has turned out that the first 6 months of 2013, the 4GS has amassed 9,068 in the USA, giving an estimated 2013 grand total of around 18,136 sales; well below its 2006 equivalent predecessor of 27,390.
It all boils down to experience.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
The 4GS has a more rigid platform, and firmer springs for much sharper steering - great for journalists and the enthusiast.
However, do remember that in life, we humans are infallible and often take 3 steps forwards and 1 step backwards - such that the stylish, soft riding, quiet 3GS captured the mass public's signature on the dotted line, in a way that the new 4GS has not been able to attain.
The new sharp handling 4GS is selling at about two thirds the rate of the 3GS.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
In the end, we must be careful about being too self-righteous about our opinion, and too judgemental on other people's opinions.
The OP did title that they're just "rambling thoughts" too...
Last edited by peteharvey; 07-06-13 at 03:35 PM.
07-06-13, 03:07 PM
#67
1) Because we are humans, we all make mistakes, so we can't be too "self-righteous" in what we say.
2) Equivalently, we can't pretend to be God and too "judgemental"; only God can judge others.
3) Furthermore, it is important to respect another forum member's opinion, whether we agree or disagree with that opinion.
4) Focus on giving a direct opinion of the car itself, rather than negatively quoting, and giving a negative opinion of another forum member's opinion.
We want to hear opinions about the car, not opinions about another member's opinion.
For example, on the first point above, it was only last year that a member said:
"Some posters predicted that 4GS sales would be underwhelming, contrary to my own expectations...".
"...At the very least, the 4GS is selling much better than the 3GS -- as it should --- it's a much better car and the market has correspondingly voted with their wallets".
In its debut year of 2012, 4GS sales was only 22,160, versus 33,457 3GS in 2005, in the USA.
Furthermore, it has turned out that the first 6 months of 2013, the 4GS has amassed 9,068 in the USA, giving an estimated 2013 grand total of around 18,136 sales; well below its 2006 equivalent predecessor of 27,390.
It all boils down to experience.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
The 4GS has a more rigid platform, and firmer springs for much sharper steering - great for journalists and the enthusiast.
However, do remember that in life, we humans are infallible and often take 3 steps forwards and 1 step backwards - such that the stylish, soft riding, quiet 3GS captured the mass public's signature on the dotted line, in a way that the new 4GS has not been able to attain.
The new sharp handling 4GS is selling at about two thirds the rate of the 3GS.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
In the end, we must be careful about being too self-righteous about our opinion, and too judgemental on other people's opinions...
2) Equivalently, we can't pretend to be God and too "judgemental"; only God can judge others.
3) Furthermore, it is important to respect another forum member's opinion, whether we agree or disagree with that opinion.
4) Focus on giving a direct opinion of the car itself, rather than negatively quoting, and giving a negative opinion of another forum member's opinion.
We want to hear opinions about the car, not opinions about another member's opinion.
For example, on the first point above, it was only last year that a member said:
"Some posters predicted that 4GS sales would be underwhelming, contrary to my own expectations...".
"...At the very least, the 4GS is selling much better than the 3GS -- as it should --- it's a much better car and the market has correspondingly voted with their wallets".
In its debut year of 2012, 4GS sales was only 22,160, versus 33,457 3GS in 2005, in the USA.
Furthermore, it has turned out that the first 6 months of 2013, the 4GS has amassed 9,068 in the USA, giving an estimated 2013 grand total of around 18,136 sales; well below its 2006 equivalent predecessor of 27,390.
It all boils down to experience.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
The 4GS has a more rigid platform, and firmer springs for much sharper steering - great for journalists and the enthusiast.
However, do remember that in life, we humans are infallible and often take 3 steps forwards and 1 step backwards - such that the stylish, soft riding, quiet 3GS captured the mass public's signature on the dotted line, in a way that the new 4GS has not been able to attain.
The new sharp handling 4GS is selling at about two thirds the rate of the 3GS.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
In the end, we must be careful about being too self-righteous about our opinion, and too judgemental on other people's opinions...
07-06-13, 03:13 PM
#68
Lexus Fanatic
LOL, surprise surprise the conversation winds up being about 4GS sales figures. Always.
07-06-13, 03:16 PM
#69
Out of interest, can you provide us with some figures from your continent, or any other market you know of?
Please post your results at this thread:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...a-flop-29.html
Last edited by peteharvey; 07-06-13 at 03:30 PM.
07-06-13, 03:22 PM
#70
Lexus Fanatic
How about we discuss the 3IS In this thread in the 3IS forum.
07-06-13, 04:21 PM
#71
Lexus Test Driver
Sorry, but loads of nonsense in the original post.
I don't own either 2IS or 3IS and have no vested interest in taking one side or the other so I am as impartial as they come.
I have sat inside the 3IS twice now in both the F sport model and the regular 3IS and also have driven a 2IS (a regular IS350 and an X-package IS250 with 6 speed manual) and many times sat inside it. Even today, I sat inside an IS-F and then a 3IS F sport.
Long story short, the 3IS interior is leaps and bounds ahead of the 2IS. It feels like a very special place to be in. When you grab the thick rimmed steering, run your hands through the dash etc., the 3IS exudes very well thought out ergonomics focused on driver-centric philosophy.
The IS-F interior by comparison, felt clumsy, dated, the silver patterned trim in the center looked tacky and the materials for buttons felt much better in the 3IS than in the IS-F.
In my book, Lexus made a big huge leap forward with the 3IS. Ofcourse, I would reserve judgement on the driver dynamics until I drive one.
I don't own either 2IS or 3IS and have no vested interest in taking one side or the other so I am as impartial as they come.
I have sat inside the 3IS twice now in both the F sport model and the regular 3IS and also have driven a 2IS (a regular IS350 and an X-package IS250 with 6 speed manual) and many times sat inside it. Even today, I sat inside an IS-F and then a 3IS F sport.
Long story short, the 3IS interior is leaps and bounds ahead of the 2IS. It feels like a very special place to be in. When you grab the thick rimmed steering, run your hands through the dash etc., the 3IS exudes very well thought out ergonomics focused on driver-centric philosophy.
The IS-F interior by comparison, felt clumsy, dated, the silver patterned trim in the center looked tacky and the materials for buttons felt much better in the 3IS than in the IS-F.
In my book, Lexus made a big huge leap forward with the 3IS. Ofcourse, I would reserve judgement on the driver dynamics until I drive one.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 07-06-13 at 04:29 PM.
07-06-13, 04:23 PM
#72
Guest
Posts: n/a
1) Because we are humans, we all make mistakes, so we can't be too "self-righteous" in what we say.
2) Equivalently, we can't pretend to be God and too "judgemental"; only God can judge others.
3) Furthermore, it is important to respect another forum member's opinion, whether we agree or disagree with that opinion.
4) Focus on giving a direct opinion of the car itself, rather than negatively quoting, and giving a negative opinion of another forum member's opinion.
We want to hear opinions about the car, not opinions about another member's opinion.
For example, on the first point above, it was only last year that a member said:
"Some posters predicted that 4GS sales would be underwhelming, contrary to my own expectations...".
"...At the very least, the 4GS is selling much better than the 3GS -- as it should --- it's a much better car and the market has correspondingly voted with their wallets".
In its debut year of 2012, 4GS sales was only 22,160, versus 33,457 3GS in 2005, in the USA.
Furthermore, it has turned out that the first 6 months of 2013, the 4GS has amassed 9,068 in the USA, giving an estimated 2013 grand total of around 18,136 sales; well below its 2006 equivalent predecessor of 27,390.
It all boils down to experience.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
The 4GS has a more rigid platform, and firmer springs for much sharper steering - great for journalists and the enthusiast.
However, do remember that in life, we humans are infallible and often take 3 steps forwards and 1 step backwards - such that the stylish, soft riding, quiet 3GS captured the mass public's signature on the dotted line, in a way that the new 4GS has not been able to attain.
The new sharp handling 4GS is selling at about two thirds the rate of the 3GS.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
In the end, we must be careful about being too self-righteous about our opinion, and too judgemental on other people's opinions.
The OP did title that they're just "rambling thoughts" too...
2) Equivalently, we can't pretend to be God and too "judgemental"; only God can judge others.
3) Furthermore, it is important to respect another forum member's opinion, whether we agree or disagree with that opinion.
4) Focus on giving a direct opinion of the car itself, rather than negatively quoting, and giving a negative opinion of another forum member's opinion.
We want to hear opinions about the car, not opinions about another member's opinion.
For example, on the first point above, it was only last year that a member said:
"Some posters predicted that 4GS sales would be underwhelming, contrary to my own expectations...".
"...At the very least, the 4GS is selling much better than the 3GS -- as it should --- it's a much better car and the market has correspondingly voted with their wallets".
In its debut year of 2012, 4GS sales was only 22,160, versus 33,457 3GS in 2005, in the USA.
Furthermore, it has turned out that the first 6 months of 2013, the 4GS has amassed 9,068 in the USA, giving an estimated 2013 grand total of around 18,136 sales; well below its 2006 equivalent predecessor of 27,390.
It all boils down to experience.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
The 4GS has a more rigid platform, and firmer springs for much sharper steering - great for journalists and the enthusiast.
However, do remember that in life, we humans are infallible and often take 3 steps forwards and 1 step backwards - such that the stylish, soft riding, quiet 3GS captured the mass public's signature on the dotted line, in a way that the new 4GS has not been able to attain.
The new sharp handling 4GS is selling at about two thirds the rate of the 3GS.
A good car, is not necessarily the same as a good selling car.
In the end, we must be careful about being too self-righteous about our opinion, and too judgemental on other people's opinions.
The OP did title that they're just "rambling thoughts" too...
I think the internet sadly has given everyone the ability to spout off and people have no idea their background, what they drive, etc. Contrarily it has given a lot of people that own relevant cars and with experiences to share them with others. Those opinions are more highly valued than people just talking.Some people here also are well known, go to meets, events, people see their cars, some have connections with Lexus, some work in the industry. Surely their opinion means more than someone that doesn't.
I'm on Ferrari Chat, I sure as hell don't tell them much since my Ferrari experience is at a minimal. I know my role and shut my mouth. Some people don't know their roles, don't know when to shut the hell up.
I never owned a 2IS but I drove it more than most and likely at track events harder than most owners. I've now driven the 3IS. So I would hope my opinion helps. Nowhere is it the end all of all opinions.
Then after July 19th, I can chime in some more.
I value the O.P's opinion as it is his opinion riding in the car. We have all ridden in a car and it can give a preview of driving. Whenever a new Lexus or any car comes out, there will always be a heated discussion on old vs new.
07-06-13, 06:43 PM
#73
I never had issues with the 2IS in regards to the drive, it handled fine stock, it handled better with F-sport and handled better (in some cases) with the IS F. TO me the steering feel was lacking and the more powerful the engine, the more heavy the front felt with less traction. You would NOT really feel this under most driving conditions.
The 3IS drives superior, no questions about it stock. Its based off the GS which has gotten rave review for its drive. The 3IS steering is more communicative and the entire chassis feels stronger and better built compared to the 2IS which IMO needed F-sport braces at the least to tighten things up. The 3IS drives like a 2IS with all suspension mods and with better steering.
Same engine so expect no surprises there.
I then drove my 4GS and the 3IS drives like it but smaller but I do miss the rear steer option. Overall the 3IS is one hell of a great driving car out the box, I can only imagine how amazing it would be with 400hp
The 3IS drives superior, no questions about it stock. Its based off the GS which has gotten rave review for its drive. The 3IS steering is more communicative and the entire chassis feels stronger and better built compared to the 2IS which IMO needed F-sport braces at the least to tighten things up. The 3IS drives like a 2IS with all suspension mods and with better steering.
Same engine so expect no surprises there.
I then drove my 4GS and the 3IS drives like it but smaller but I do miss the rear steer option. Overall the 3IS is one hell of a great driving car out the box, I can only imagine how amazing it would be with 400hp
So far, the performance numbers (i.e. 0-60 and skidpad) haven't been very impressive on the early magazine reviews that I've seen for the 3IS F-Sport but I think it has a lot to do with the testers being equipped with the crappy Turanza tires. Hopefully that will change with other testers being equipped with better tires (I believe the Potenza S001 tires are optional?).
I look forward to seeing a more evolved IS on the street representing the Lexus brand. For those with a 2IS, stock for stock, the 3IS F-Sport looks to be a much better performance car from the factory. Of course, you can always heavily modify your 2IS like the set-up in my sig and outhandle even the mighty IS-F!
07-06-13, 07:18 PM
#74
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^ I didn't realize you could get an LSD! Hmmm my mom "needs" one of those for safety concerns o_o
How does your car ride? I do not know much about the brace that you have but I was thinking down the line to swap in some Swift springs with F-Sport shocks, sways, and some 19's to fill the fenders and raise the car up a little so that my mom doesn't destroy the teeny front lip lol
And how does it handle?? I've taken her car to somewhat of an AutoX course and it seems to slide pretty easily with trail braking and understeers a little at other times. Have you tried playing with less of a staggered tire size?
How does your car ride? I do not know much about the brace that you have but I was thinking down the line to swap in some Swift springs with F-Sport shocks, sways, and some 19's to fill the fenders and raise the car up a little so that my mom doesn't destroy the teeny front lip lol
And how does it handle?? I've taken her car to somewhat of an AutoX course and it seems to slide pretty easily with trail braking and understeers a little at other times. Have you tried playing with less of a staggered tire size?
07-06-13, 07:42 PM
#75
^ I didn't realize you could get an LSD! Hmmm my mom "needs" one of those for safety concerns o_o
How does your car ride? I do not know much about the brace that you have but I was thinking down the line to swap in some Swift springs with F-Sport shocks, sways, and some 19's to fill the fenders and raise the car up a little so that my mom doesn't destroy the teeny front lip lol
And how does it handle?? I've taken her car to somewhat of an AutoX course and it seems to slide pretty easily with trail braking and understeers a little at other times. Have you tried playing with less of a staggered tire size?
How does your car ride? I do not know much about the brace that you have but I was thinking down the line to swap in some Swift springs with F-Sport shocks, sways, and some 19's to fill the fenders and raise the car up a little so that my mom doesn't destroy the teeny front lip lol
And how does it handle?? I've taken her car to somewhat of an AutoX course and it seems to slide pretty easily with trail braking and understeers a little at other times. Have you tried playing with less of a staggered tire size?
I agree with your autocross experience that the IS350 with an open differential does slide very easily around apexes if you get on the throttle too early. Regarding the Super Lock TCD, I share the exact same thoughts of others online that have had this equipped on their track cars: "The OS Giken feels like a cheat code. Absolutely unreal what you can do with the rear end with it".
Yes, I reduced the staggered size of my tires with 235/40/18s on the front with no rubbing issues.