Car and Driver Comparo: IS350 F Sport beats 335i M Sport!!!
06-04-13, 01:29 PM
#46
Well put... unless one actually tracks the new IS or 3series, all street races are drag. And no one who does road racing tracks an IS or 3series, they're still luxury sedans, not sports cars.
Not a BMW fanboy here, just going by what is being offered as more complete package (drive feel, tech, performance): Fully loaded 2014 350 Fsport or loaded 335 MSport? Back in 2006, yes, the IS350 outperformed the 330i in ALL aspects, but that it not the case today.
I have driven the 2013 GS350 FSport, 2013 535 MSport, 550 MSport and the 5 series are definitely more stable on the highway. Handling in the GS350 is only slightly better on tight slow-moderate speed turns like that on an autocross course as opposed to a high speed road course. Just awaiting for the release of the new IS350 to do my own comparison/conclusion against the 335i, going in knowing that handling = IS350, acceleration = 335.
Not a BMW fanboy here, just going by what is being offered as more complete package (drive feel, tech, performance): Fully loaded 2014 350 Fsport or loaded 335 MSport? Back in 2006, yes, the IS350 outperformed the 330i in ALL aspects, but that it not the case today.
I have driven the 2013 GS350 FSport, 2013 535 MSport, 550 MSport and the 5 series are definitely more stable on the highway. Handling in the GS350 is only slightly better on tight slow-moderate speed turns like that on an autocross course as opposed to a high speed road course. Just awaiting for the release of the new IS350 to do my own comparison/conclusion against the 335i, going in knowing that handling = IS350, acceleration = 335.
I respect your point of view and appreciate the improved handling of the 3IS but just think about how GREAT the IS could have been if it also was just a little quicker then the BMW. Not for nothing, the 330i was humiliated by the IS350. Why do you think BMW immediately went with the turbos? These are not road racing cars (and not even real sports cars) and having a little better handling doesn’t mean much on the street. In a street fight I’ll take the faster/quicker car every time!
Koz
Koz
06-04-13, 01:39 PM
#47
I will reserve judgement until the IS350 is actually available and can compare them back to back for myself, as should anyone making conclusions from a magazine review. As I stated previously, the new IS does not "have it all" as it did in 2006, mainly due to the engine\trans carrying over, and certain tech not available.
06-04-13, 05:56 PM
#48
Everyone is correct.
A car depends on both its straight line performance and its handling.
In fact, a car is the sum of its parts.
Not just performance and handling, but a whole host of other factors.
I guess we'll all have to wait for the test drive to determine the overall package.
Sometimes the car with superior performance wins; other times the car with superior handling wins - it all depends on the rest of the package.
One thing that I'm certain is that the new 3IS should sell well, and sell as well if not better than its predecessor, unlike the plain tail 4GS which is selling below target to the mass public - a shame considering the 4GS has such a nice nose, and competent mechanicals for the enthusiasts...
A car depends on both its straight line performance and its handling.
In fact, a car is the sum of its parts.
Not just performance and handling, but a whole host of other factors.
I guess we'll all have to wait for the test drive to determine the overall package.
Sometimes the car with superior performance wins; other times the car with superior handling wins - it all depends on the rest of the package.
One thing that I'm certain is that the new 3IS should sell well, and sell as well if not better than its predecessor, unlike the plain tail 4GS which is selling below target to the mass public - a shame considering the 4GS has such a nice nose, and competent mechanicals for the enthusiasts...
06-04-13, 07:42 PM
#49
Lexus Champion
Everyone is correct.
A car depends on both its straight line performance and its handling.
In fact, a car is the sum of its parts.
Not just performance and handling, but a whole host of other factors.
I guess we'll all have to wait for the test drive to determine the overall package.
Sometimes the car with superior performance wins; other times the car with superior handling wins - it all depends on the rest of the package.
One thing that I'm certain is that the new 3IS should sell well, and sell as well if not better than its predecessor, unlike the plain tail 4GS which is selling below target to the mass public - a shame considering the 4GS has such a nice nose, and competent mechanicals for the enthusiasts...
A car depends on both its straight line performance and its handling.
In fact, a car is the sum of its parts.
Not just performance and handling, but a whole host of other factors.
I guess we'll all have to wait for the test drive to determine the overall package.
Sometimes the car with superior performance wins; other times the car with superior handling wins - it all depends on the rest of the package.
One thing that I'm certain is that the new 3IS should sell well, and sell as well if not better than its predecessor, unlike the plain tail 4GS which is selling below target to the mass public - a shame considering the 4GS has such a nice nose, and competent mechanicals for the enthusiasts...
06-04-13, 10:46 PM
#50
Pole Position
Well put... unless one actually tracks the new IS or 3series, all street races are drag. And no one who does road racing tracks an IS or 3series, they're still luxury sedans, not sports cars.
Not a BMW fanboy here, just going by what is being offered as more complete package (drive feel, tech, performance): Fully loaded 2014 350 Fsport or loaded 335 MSport? Back in 2006, yes, the IS350 outperformed the 330i in ALL aspects, but that it not the case today.
I have driven the 2013 GS350 FSport, 2013 535 MSport, 550 MSport and the 5 series are definitely more stable on the highway. Handling in the GS350 is only slightly better on tight slow-moderate speed turns like that on an autocross course as opposed to a high speed road course. Just awaiting for the release of the new IS350 to do my own comparison/conclusion against the 335i, going in knowing that handling = IS350, acceleration = 335.
Not a BMW fanboy here, just going by what is being offered as more complete package (drive feel, tech, performance): Fully loaded 2014 350 Fsport or loaded 335 MSport? Back in 2006, yes, the IS350 outperformed the 330i in ALL aspects, but that it not the case today.
I have driven the 2013 GS350 FSport, 2013 535 MSport, 550 MSport and the 5 series are definitely more stable on the highway. Handling in the GS350 is only slightly better on tight slow-moderate speed turns like that on an autocross course as opposed to a high speed road course. Just awaiting for the release of the new IS350 to do my own comparison/conclusion against the 335i, going in knowing that handling = IS350, acceleration = 335.
At the very least, a taut responsive chassis and good steering is readily appreciated even when going slow and when going about regular daily driver activities but how often is Wide Open Throttle 0-60/0-100 appreciated?
If anything, better driving feel and responsive chassis makes for a better everyday luxury sedan than ultimate WOT straightline acceleration.
I also like how you throw in the fact that the BMW 5 series is more stable on the highway compared to the Lexus GS, as if that somehow makes up for the fact that the current 5 series is an overweight pig that understeers on the handling circuit/autocross. So what? Does that suddenly make it the dynamic equal of the 2014 GS? There's a reason it is more stable on the highway--it is 300 pounds heavier!
Put in another way : on the highway, an LS is more stable than a GS and an S class is more stable than an E class and a 7 series is more stable than a 5 series. Does anyone in his/her right mind then equate that to mean that an LS outhandles a GS or a 7 series outhandles a 5 series?? Does that mean a GS will fly off the road at highway speeds? Yet you saw fit to throw in that little "fact" as if the 5 series highway stability helps it make up ground on the GS when it comes to outright handling.
To put it bluntly, GS > 5 series and IS > 3 series when it comes down to pure handling and chassis responsiveness, qualities that BMW traditionally was unsurpassed in, yet now BMW apologists are switching tack and playing up the straightline torque/cushiness of BMWs as if that were suddenly qualities that defined BMW. Let's call a spade a spade and acknowledge the fact that for now, the typical Lexus sedan ( IS/GS) handles better than the typical BMW sedan (3/5 series).
Lexus has usurped BMW in the handling stakes while BMW was busy trying to imitate Mercedes in the luxury stakes.
(*M cars don't count as mainstream BMW sedans)
Last edited by natnut; 06-05-13 at 05:35 AM.
06-05-13, 08:06 PM
#51
Lexus Champion
Sorry but you're not being very consistent here. If you're viewing them as luxury sedans, then I would respectfully submit that a few tenths of a second 0-60 is EVEN less important to a luxury sedan than handling at the limits on the autocross.
At the very least, a taut responsive chassis and good steering is readily appreciated even when going slow and when going about regular daily driver activities but how often is Wide Open Throttle 0-60/0-100 appreciated?
If anything, better driving feel and responsive chassis makes for a better everyday luxury sedan than ultimate WOT straightline acceleration.
I also like how you throw in the fact that the BMW 5 series is more stable on the highway compared to the Lexus GS, as if that somehow makes up for the fact that the current 5 series is an overweight pig that understeers on the handling circuit/autocross. So what? Does that suddenly make it the dynamic equal of the 2014 GS? There's a reason it is more stable on the highway--it is 300 pounds heavier!
Put in another way : on the highway, an LS is more stable than a GS and an S class is more stable than an E class and a 7 series is more stable than a 5 series. Does anyone in his/her right mind then equate that to mean that an LS outhandles a GS or a 7 series outhandles a 5 series?? Does that mean a GS will fly off the road at highway speeds? Yet you saw fit to throw in that little "fact" as if the 5 series highway stability helps it make up ground on the GS when it comes to outright handling.
To put it bluntly, GS > 5 series and IS > 3 series when it comes down to pure handling and chassis responsiveness, qualities that BMW traditionally was unsurpassed in, yet now BMW apologists are switching tack and playing up the straightline torque/cushiness of BMWs as if that were suddenly qualities that defined BMW. Let's call a spade a spade and acknowledge the fact that for now, the typical Lexus sedan ( IS/GS) handles better than the typical BMW sedan (3/5 series).
Lexus has usurped BMW in the handling stakes while BMW was busy trying to imitate Mercedes in the luxury stakes.
(*M cars don't count as mainstream BMW sedans)
At the very least, a taut responsive chassis and good steering is readily appreciated even when going slow and when going about regular daily driver activities but how often is Wide Open Throttle 0-60/0-100 appreciated?
If anything, better driving feel and responsive chassis makes for a better everyday luxury sedan than ultimate WOT straightline acceleration.
I also like how you throw in the fact that the BMW 5 series is more stable on the highway compared to the Lexus GS, as if that somehow makes up for the fact that the current 5 series is an overweight pig that understeers on the handling circuit/autocross. So what? Does that suddenly make it the dynamic equal of the 2014 GS? There's a reason it is more stable on the highway--it is 300 pounds heavier!
Put in another way : on the highway, an LS is more stable than a GS and an S class is more stable than an E class and a 7 series is more stable than a 5 series. Does anyone in his/her right mind then equate that to mean that an LS outhandles a GS or a 7 series outhandles a 5 series?? Does that mean a GS will fly off the road at highway speeds? Yet you saw fit to throw in that little "fact" as if the 5 series highway stability helps it make up ground on the GS when it comes to outright handling.
To put it bluntly, GS > 5 series and IS > 3 series when it comes down to pure handling and chassis responsiveness, qualities that BMW traditionally was unsurpassed in, yet now BMW apologists are switching tack and playing up the straightline torque/cushiness of BMWs as if that were suddenly qualities that defined BMW. Let's call a spade a spade and acknowledge the fact that for now, the typical Lexus sedan ( IS/GS) handles better than the typical BMW sedan (3/5 series).
Lexus has usurped BMW in the handling stakes while BMW was busy trying to imitate Mercedes in the luxury stakes.
(*M cars don't count as mainstream BMW sedans)
06-05-13, 08:22 PM
#52
Pole Position
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To put it bluntly, GS > 5 series and IS > 3 series when it comes down to pure handling and chassis responsiveness, qualities that BMW traditionally was unsurpassed in, yet now BMW apologists are switching tack and playing up the straightline torque/cushiness of BMWs as if that were suddenly qualities that defined BMW. Let's call a spade a spade and acknowledge the fact that for now, the typical Lexus sedan ( IS/GS) handles better than the typical BMW sedan (3/5 series).
Lexus has usurped BMW in the handling stakes while BMW was busy trying to imitate Mercedes in the luxury stakes.
Lexus has usurped BMW in the handling stakes while BMW was busy trying to imitate Mercedes in the luxury stakes.
06-10-13, 04:19 AM
#55
Personally, I do not care whether or not the 3IS beats a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc... Yes the BMW is the standard in the class, but if I wanted that feel, I would get one. Lexus designs a different vehicle with a different feel overall and I like that. I have had BMWs and although they may handle and accelerate better, the high maintenance is off putting when compared to Lexus. I am more concerned about the 3IS being better than the 2IS as an individual vehicle.
06-10-13, 11:16 AM
#56
Pole Position
Personally, I do not care whether or not the 3IS beats a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc... Yes the BMW is the standard in the class, but if I wanted that feel, I would get one. Lexus designs a different vehicle with a different feel overall and I like that. I have had BMWs and although they may handle and accelerate better, the high maintenance is off putting when compared to Lexus. I am more concerned about the 3IS being better than the 2IS as an individual vehicle.
And according to many many reviews, the latest examples of the 3 and 5 series, core models in BMW's lineup, are no longer the segment leaders they used to be. Heck, they aren't even the 2nd best handling sedan in their respective segments depending on which comparo you read.
06-10-13, 11:22 AM
#57
Personally, I do not care whether or not the 3IS beats a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc... Yes the BMW is the standard in the class, but if I wanted that feel, I would get one. Lexus designs a different vehicle with a different feel overall and I like that. I have had BMWs and although they may handle and accelerate better, the high maintenance is off putting when compared to Lexus. I am more concerned about the 3IS being better than the 2IS as an individual vehicle.
The BMW purist may not buy but a lot more people will because of the more prestigious BMW badge over that of a Lexus.
06-10-13, 11:34 AM
#58
Pole Position
I think we are confusing popularity with intrinsic value.
Brand 'A' may sell better than Brand 'B' despite being an inferior product but only because the majority of the market are too lazy to educate themselves on the actual differences in quality between the 2 brands.
Since they don't know any better, they go with the flow and buy the status-quo.
Does that make Brand A intrinsically better than Brand B just because it sells better? No, it's just evidence that most people don't have the inclination to dig a little deeper.
The most glaring example I can think of is McDonalds selling the most burgers but no one in their right mind thinks they sell the best burgers.
As a forum for true car enthusiasts, and unlike the uneducated mass market, we should set our sights higher and not allow factors like "perceived prestige" from blinding us to things like true quality.
Brand 'A' may sell better than Brand 'B' despite being an inferior product but only because the majority of the market are too lazy to educate themselves on the actual differences in quality between the 2 brands.
Since they don't know any better, they go with the flow and buy the status-quo.
Does that make Brand A intrinsically better than Brand B just because it sells better? No, it's just evidence that most people don't have the inclination to dig a little deeper.
The most glaring example I can think of is McDonalds selling the most burgers but no one in their right mind thinks they sell the best burgers.
As a forum for true car enthusiasts, and unlike the uneducated mass market, we should set our sights higher and not allow factors like "perceived prestige" from blinding us to things like true quality.
Last edited by natnut; 06-10-13 at 11:41 AM.
06-10-13, 11:39 AM
#59
I think we are confusing popularity with intrinsic value.
Brand 'A' may sell better than Brand 'B' despite being an inferior product but only because the majority of the market are too lazy to educate themselves on the actual differences in quality between the 2 brands.
Since they don't know any better, they go with the flow and buy the status-quo.
Does that make Brand A intrinsically better than Brand B just because it sells better? No, it's just evidence that most people don't have the inclination to dig a little deeper.
The most glaring example I can think of is McDonalds selling the most burgers but no one in their right mind thinks they sell the best burgers.
Brand 'A' may sell better than Brand 'B' despite being an inferior product but only because the majority of the market are too lazy to educate themselves on the actual differences in quality between the 2 brands.
Since they don't know any better, they go with the flow and buy the status-quo.
Does that make Brand A intrinsically better than Brand B just because it sells better? No, it's just evidence that most people don't have the inclination to dig a little deeper.
The most glaring example I can think of is McDonalds selling the most burgers but no one in their right mind thinks they sell the best burgers.
I never said brand A was better.
BMW and MB are more prestigious badges over a Lexus to many.It's just the way it is and will be for quite awhile.Not to me as I've owned a number of Lexus vehicles.
06-10-13, 12:08 PM
#60
True intrinsic quality for the small number of car enthusiasts, and perceived/notional quality and sales figures from the mass public, are two different facets.
For example, the old Lexus 3GS was not a spacious, nor great handling car, yet it amassed 33,457 in 2005 and 27,390 in 2006.
However, the new 4GS is a much roomier car, with great steering feel, quicker changes in direction, and higher terminal grip on the skid pan, yet it only amassed 22,160 last year, and is struggling with only 7,340 sales for the first 5 months of 2013.
The car enthusiast and the mass public obviously have different priorities.
The mass public puts a heavy emphasis on badge, looks, and space - three things that you notice, without even having to start the engine!
The 4GS was conceived roughly at a time when Toyota was in the red.
However, not so for the 3IS.
The 3IS would have been conceived at a time when Toyota had bounced back into the black.
Thus, the 3IS has 8 speed gear boxes, split folding rear seats, 100 mm longer wheelbase, and all.
With the new Lexus 3IS, it is possible that it may have the best of both worlds?
The 3IS may turn out to have both enthusiasts credibility, and sales as well?
It is very possible for the 3IS to match or exceed the 54,267 2IS sales of 2006, 54,933 sales of 2007, and 49,432 of 2008.
If 3IS sales do fall behind 2IS sales, I can't imagine the 3IS being too far behind...
For example, the old Lexus 3GS was not a spacious, nor great handling car, yet it amassed 33,457 in 2005 and 27,390 in 2006.
However, the new 4GS is a much roomier car, with great steering feel, quicker changes in direction, and higher terminal grip on the skid pan, yet it only amassed 22,160 last year, and is struggling with only 7,340 sales for the first 5 months of 2013.
The car enthusiast and the mass public obviously have different priorities.
The mass public puts a heavy emphasis on badge, looks, and space - three things that you notice, without even having to start the engine!
The 4GS was conceived roughly at a time when Toyota was in the red.
However, not so for the 3IS.
The 3IS would have been conceived at a time when Toyota had bounced back into the black.
Thus, the 3IS has 8 speed gear boxes, split folding rear seats, 100 mm longer wheelbase, and all.
With the new Lexus 3IS, it is possible that it may have the best of both worlds?
The 3IS may turn out to have both enthusiasts credibility, and sales as well?
It is very possible for the 3IS to match or exceed the 54,267 2IS sales of 2006, 54,933 sales of 2007, and 49,432 of 2008.
If 3IS sales do fall behind 2IS sales, I can't imagine the 3IS being too far behind...
