aznoutkast

get the IsF or GTR and call it a day =)

bob4256

iTrader: (17)

This^

or get the GTR tunned by AMS and you'll have a 1200hp monster

smokyis350

iTrader: (21)

I think you are completely missing the point here. There are reasons why cars such as the C63 and GT500 has launch control. You do understand that every 0.1 second on the strip is equivalent to a car length right? .6 seconds may sound like nothing. But to put this in perspective, if you are comparing a 13.3 IS350 with a 12.7 ISF, that is nearly 6 car lengths on the drag strip.

I don't know what kind of Mustang you are talking about. Take a look at this new 2013 Shelby video. Skip to 3:50. He launches at 3200 RPM with barely any traction issues. That is with 660 HP and 600 torque bone stock Shelby GT500 with street tires.


I don't see how a Shelby could be useless when it doubles the HP, yet gets gas mileage close to the IS350. (15/24 vs 18/26) and shows that it can put down power to the ground without any issues. There are people running high 9 seconds with just minor modifications without nitrous.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Which would be relevant if we were discussing the drag strip.

But the OP makes it very clear in the posts I was replying to he was asking about a street-driven daily driver, not a race car.

Which is why those huge HP figures and 1/10ths of a second are a lot less relevant.

But it's you missing the point- which was that you get increasingly diminishing returns with hp jumps. Which is what my #s show pretty clearly.

You get a huge increase in quickness from 200->300 hp... a smaller one from 300->400, an even smaller one from 400->550 (a 50% larger jump than the last two), and so on.

then you should read closer. I explicitly state the year and horsepower in my post. You seem to have missed it and gone on to discuss a completely different model with over 100 more horsepower and different electronics (no launch control)


and even then, while launch control is a a cool feature they just added for 2013... it's still slowing the car down, because it's incapable of using all it's power.

For evidence look at an AWD car of similar power levels. The 2012 GT-R actually makes the same hp as the 2011 GT500 (and over 100 hp less than the 2013 GT500) and yet it's significantly quicker. Weight is almost identical before you bring that up

0-60 in 4.1 seconds with 550 hp on the GT500
0-60 in 2.7 seconds with 550 hp on the GT-R

1/4 mile in 12.4 with 550 hp on the GT500
1/4 mile in 10.8 with 550hp on the GT-R

Why? AWD. It can actually use more of its power.

Much north of 400 hp is one of the few times AWD is really useful on a car.

smokyis350

iTrader: (21)

What is the difference between street driving car vs drag strip? The power is still present. It may perform more reliably on the street compared to the on the strip because the traction control will be on. There is no reason to turn off the traction control on the streets like you stated in the previous post. Furthermore, he will not be spinning tires all day if he floors the car with the traction control on.

It is pretty much common sense that you have to take account of aerodynamic drag when you are mentioning high horsepower cars. There are reasons why there aren't much 11 second cars out there on the street.

How did I miss your point? You said On a normal day on a normal street you floor the GT500 with traction control off and you're not going to move at all. You'll just sit there burning tire rubber off the expensive 20" tires.. I am showing you that it is not the case for the new Shelby GT500 with 660 HP/600 torque and can reliably put down the power with minimal traction issues.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

huh?

Do you understand the difference between a prepared surface and a normal street?

Do you understand that going stoplight to stoplight on public roads you won't be running 100+ mph 1/4 mile runs?

How is that even a serious question?


He also won't be going nearly as fast as you are claiming. Because traction control will cut his power output down to avoid tire spin. Hence he will suddenly not be much faster than a car with 300 hp.

That's the entire point of why it's useless power on the street.


Yes, that remains totally true. Nothing you have shown disagrees with that.

No, you aren't. You're showing me how with launch control you can do that. Which needs to be turned on and set to a given RPM...something you're probably not doing at every stoplight.

But even then it works by pulling power from the car. That's the point you don't understand.

You aren't putting 660 hp down.

You can't. The tires would spin.

Which I just proved by showing you how much blazingly faster a GT-R with only 550 hp is, which thanks to AWD doesn't have to pull power to get traction.

But just to show you some apples to apples-

The 2013 GT500, with launch control, can do 0-60 in 3.5 with 660 hp and RWD.

The 2009 GT-R, with about the same weight, can do 0-60 in 3.5 with 485 hp and AWD.

The 2012 GT-R, same weight as the GT500 and still 110 less hp (550) can do 0-60 in 2.7 seconds with AWD.

The car with the most hp, by far, is the same quickness as an almost 200 hp less car, and much slower than a car with 110 less hp.

Because you can't actually use the 660 hp to launch a 2WD car.

That's the point.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

I had to waste a lot of valuable time today cleaning up this thread. If the conversation can't be civil, the thread will be locked.

Carry on.

Rjame

I had already looked into that.. $102k

smokyis350

iTrader: (21)

I'm not talking about a full blown launching to 1/4 mile on the street. I am talking about stop light to stop light and freeway runs.

You don't need to be going 100 MPH to know that your car is pumping X amount of horsepower.


What? A Shelby will still be able to run 0-60 in 3.5 seconds and the best a IS350 can do with weight reduction and super good weather is still 0-60 is 4.8 seconds. ( and that is with TC off)

My good friend has a E63. That is pumping ~500 HP to the crank. If you floor it with traction control on, you don't just sit there spinning tires all day. It just goes with a slight chirp from the tires burning.

Traction control is just literally one button. You could easily just leave it to a desire RPM and don't need to change it. Furthermore, no one would be launching their car on every stop light to begin with.

I never said it was putting 660 HP directly down at all times. I was just saying that a 660 HP car can launch with minimal traction issues.

Rjame

Furthermore, no one would be launching their car on every stop light to begin with.


So that's a bad thing?

smokyis350

iTrader: (21)

You could do it and the Shelby is capable of doing it with a touch of a button. I could see someone launching it once in the street for the heck of it but every stop light?

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

But it isn't pumping that power. Because it can't do anything with the 660 hp from launch. If you're only going stoplight to stoplight you've getting little to no use out of hundreds of those 660 hp. As I've shown you 2 or 3 times now.



Sure is. Because there's a 360 hp difference. But since hp is diminishing returns despite it having more than double the hp, it doesn't halve the 0-60 time (which would be 2.4 seconds). In fact it's only about 40% faster despite having over 115% more hp. It's like you prove my point with everything you post

The AWD GT-R on the other hand with merely 485 hp (about 60% more than the IS350) does that same 3.5 0-60 or about 40% quicker.

So the GT500 isn't any quicker than the GT-R despite the % jump in hp being double compared to an IS350.

Why? because the GT500 can not use most of the extra power

If it could it'd be quicker. But it can't, so it's not.

It's why the 2012 GT-R, which still has 115 less hp than the GT500, is much quicker than the Ford.

because thanks to AWD it can actually use most of its 545 hp.... while the GT550 with 660 looks at the taillights of the GT-R, because it can not use most of its power.

If the GT500 could use even 550 of it it'd be neck and neck with the GT-R. Instead it's 0.8 seconds slower

To explain it yet again yet another way:

09 GT-R to 12 GT-R they added 65 horsepower (480 to 545). 0-60 time went from 3.5 to 2.7, a 0.8 drop.

The 2011 GT500 already had 550 hp, and only does 0-60 in 4.1 seconds. They added another 110 hp to that and it only dropped to down to 3.5.


Why did the GTR knock 0.8 off with 65 hp while the GT-R only knocked 0.6 off with 110 hp? Because the GT-R could use far more of its gains thanks to AWD.

Why is the 2011 GT500 almost a full one and a half seconds slower than the 2012 GT-R despite both having around 550 hp?

Because the GTR can actually use most of that hp

The Ford can not Hence why adding even another 110 hp on top of the 550 hp doesn't manage to get it any faster than the 480 hp AWD nissan. Because it can't do much with that extra power.


Any of this getting through yet?


Obviously. That's the point of traction control. He's also not using a good chunk of that 500 hp, because the traction control system is pulling power. Otherwise the wheels would just spin.

Turn off that TC and he's going nowhere. Because he can't actually use all that power with 2WD.

By the way- notice how the 518 hp 2011 E63 has a 0-60 time not much better than the 414 hp IS-F?

Why is that? Because the extra hp isn't very useful at launch.

I don't know this because I have "a friend" with a 500 hp car. I know this because I actually owned and drove a 500 hp car. On the track and the street. For quite some time. Hence I speak from experience that the extra hp is largely useless on the street. Because it is.



Yes, you did.

Which simply is not true


It can not put down 660 hp reliably. It wouldn't go anywhere if it tried. At least in street use. (On a highly prepped track with track-only slicks might be another story)

What it can do is turn on launch control and go, which will put down a lot closer to 425ish at the motor horsepower.... that's why the 0-60 time is the same as the 2009 GT-R (which loses a lot less to traction losses, but loses a bit more to the drivetrain)

And hence why those extra 200+ hp are largely useless in normal street driving (and we haven't even discussed torque, which is more important in many ways for street launching, but those numbers look even worse for the RWD car then the hp ones so I haven't bothered...suffice to say the 09 GT-R runs dead even with the 2012 GT500 despite having 180 less hp and 200 less torque- all because the GT500 can't do much with any of the extra power)


Thus (I hope) endeth the lesson.

Rjame

Called outa town on another IS-F. While they were calling in my
Appraisal someone came in and bought the car...lol jus not meant
To be..

smokyis350

iTrader: (21)

Little to no use? It will easily get high 11s on the street with traction control/launch control on. Don't forget that the GT500 will be a whole different monster on the roll for the street racers.


What? I never argued that if you double the HP, it will half the drag times? If you read my other post, I was talking about aerodynamic drag. That is the main reason why there isn't much stock 11 second cars out there.

What? I never argued that RWD is better than AWD in terms of launching and from dig. My other car is a stock 12 second Audi.There is no doubt about that an AWD will always launch better than a RWD, especially when we are talking about high HP car like a GTR.

WIth that said, you can't just say the GTR is faster than the GT500 only because it is AWD. GTR is built with better aerodynamics and built to compete with super cars while the GT500 is built to be for mass production. The GTR is built to compete with 200k+ cars with a price tag of 100k, while the GT500 is built to compete with 100k cars (ZR1, Z06) with a price tag of 55k. GTR is also slightly lighter and has a better transmission compared to the GT500. GTR is automatic and GT500 were always tested with manual. We all know that automatic will always shift more precisely compared to manual, especially when we are talking about cars in this caliber.

Let's not forget how monstrous the GT500 will be on a roll and at higher speeds. Looking at the tail light of the GTR? Not so fast.. The GT500 is faster from 0-150 MPH compared to the 2013 GTR. 17.6 on the GT500 vs 17.9 on the GTR. I would love to see a roll race or even a 60-130 of the Shelby vs GTR.

I thought the whole point of this argument is for street use. Why would the traction control be off on the streets? Even with the traction control on, a E63 can still easily run 12 second stock on the streets, but will still runs 12.1 on the strip with traction off. I still don't see how that is completely useless like you kept stating over and over again. It's not like all of a sudden once you are on the street, your car will automatically be 2 seconds slower..

You are not comparing apples to apples. E63 has a curb weight of about 4300 pounds and the IS-F has a curb weight of about 3700 pounds. That is about ~500-600 pound difference. If you speak from experience, you should know that 500 pounds is a ***** load of weight when you are comparing quarter mile numbers. The old saying is every 100 pounds is equal to 10 WHP and .1 on the drag strip.

If you find that having extra HP is so useless, then why bother buying a IS350? You could of easily bought a IS250 or even a Prius if you don't care about the so called "extra HP."

I said the new Shelby GT500 with 660 HP/600 torque and can reliably put down the power with minimal traction issues.

I never said that it can put down 660HP at launch. I just said that the GT500 could reliably put down the power without much traction problem primarily because of the launch control. If it can't reliably put down the power then you will see it spinning it's wheel and not going anywhere like you imply. But that is not the case for a GT500 with launch control.

How is it useless in street driving? Turn on launch control (one button) and launch the car. You can even leave the traction control on and you will probably still get high 11 seconds on the streets compared to TC off/launch control on will yield a low to mid 11 second.

Like I said before, you can't just take account of the HP and the drivetrain. You need to take account of the curb weight, transmission, gearing, and aerodynamic. We are also comparing a 54k car to a 97k car. To put a car that nearly cost 2x as much in the same league, that is a huge accomplishment for Ford. Let's not forget that the 2013 GT500 are already running high 9 seconds with just full bolts on 2WD. While it takes a GTR upgraded turbos, full bolts on, upgraded Intercooler, new fuel pump,transmission, torque converter, and a tune to be in the 9 second club.

Rjame

You are not comparing apples to apples. E63 has a curb weight of about 4300 pounds and the IS-F has a curb weight of about 3700 pounds. That is about ~500-600 pound difference. If you speak from experience, you should know that 500 pounds is a ***** load of weight when you are comparing quarter mile numbers. The old saying is every 100 pounds is equal to 10 WHP and .1 on the drag strip.

I was gonna mention that before, the cars you name that have extra hp are also heavier so that would be why the times aren't all that different. But if you compare same weight vehicle with diff hp the times might be a little more of a different. That's what the swap was about. IS350 with 306hp 13.1@103mph. IS350 with 500hp 11.1@122mph