Is it normal to spend $3,000+ a year on Maintainence for your IS250?
02-16-12, 09:47 AM
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Is it normal to spend $3,000+ a year on Maintainence for your IS250?
I just figured out that as of Monday, my 2008 Lexus IS250 has cost me about $6.35 per day to own. That number doesn't account for financing, though, we're just talking about maintenance here. So that means Fuel, Oil Changes, Brakes, Tires, Car Washes, Light Bulbs...
FORGET THEM ALL.
That's right, in the approximately 425 days I have owned my most recent Lexus, I have spent just over $2,700 on nothing but Flywheels and Clutch Kits. At a mileage of 22,002 at the date of purchase, to the current mileage of 48,355:
The cost of drive-train components and labor for this car have been 10.2 cents per mile.
This is also not accounting for the fact that It's in the shop right now, and in about a week and $1,000, I'll have it back, and the rate will have gone to about
$8.71 per day, or 14.5 cents per mile for clutch work alone.
So here's the story. I'm mostly just complaining, because this car is KILLING ME financially, and I just need to vent, but any suggestions would be appreciated. What have the other aggressive drivers out there found to work for you? I really like the car, but it eats clutches! I've never had this kind of problem with any other Manual Transmission, from my 90's Jetta to 3/4 and 1 Ton Ford and Dodge trucks from the last several decades. Here's a brief history to let you in on the sequence of events that lead me here. Hold on to your hats, it's a wild ride!
12-10-2010
Original Clutch/Pressure Plate: Certified Pre-Owned, Original Parts, 22,002 miles at Purchase.
Lasted 1,796 miles (28 DAYS after Purchase) before the Flywheel's Internal Friction Material (Dual-Massy-ness) began to fail. I would not discover that the slippage was the flywheel wearing out internally until the removal of clutch No. 2.
01-21-2011
Clutch/Plate No. 2 were Dealer-Installed OEM parts on the re-surfaced (original, slipping) flywheel.
Lasted 5,694 miles before internal flywheel fiction ring Total Failure. After 4 days in the Dealership Shop, I was told that the flywheel was irreparably damaged, having a worn-out internal friction ring which I must have destroyed with my overly aggressive driving. The clutch too, would need to be replaced, but the flywheel, sadly, was trashed, and was the cause of the slipping this time. I demanded to see the flywheel, to be shown the damage, and when I arrived at the shop to inspect the flywheel, I was told, "we haven't actually taken it apart, we just know it's the Flywheel."I had my vehicle towed from the Dealership, and turned over all major future service for this vehicle to my personal mechanic, knowingly forsaking any Lexus warranties, and choosing to never purchase a vehicle from this dealership again. It is pertinent to mention at this point, that the IS250 in question was the THIRD vehicle that I purchased from this dealership in UNDER 9 MONTHS.
With the Transmission removed, my personal mechanic showed me OEM Clutch No. 2, and the mating friction surface of the flywheel, both in fine shape. Then he demonstrated how he could easily, and with his bare hands, rotate the flywheel a complete 360 degrees around, in either direction, without the engine turning.
In his professional opinion, the slippage had clearly been resulting from the worn flywheel all along, and the dealer should have easily detected this, but most likely simply didn't want to warranty a $1,700 dual-mass flywheel. By putting in a new clutch and machining the flywheel instead, they were able to document that I had declined a Flywheel replacement (Which I did), and give me a little more mileage out of the drive train before the flywheel failed totally. This would allow them to sell me that new flywheel at regular cost along with another new clutch kit a little later (less than an oil change later, it would turn out), and also give them grounds to deny any future warranty claims if I took it elsewhere for work of a reasonable cost.
02-10-2011
From Dealer Invoice: Guest states hears whine type noise when releasing clutch just before it engages at times. No mention of a "noisy Transmission While Releasing Clutch" TSIB, or updated transmission is mentioned. Dealer "cannot reproduce" the symptoms.
05-06-2011
Clutch/Plate No. 3 was Lexus OEM on a new Fidanza Flywheel.
Lasted 15,114 miles Before Flat wearing out. I'm overall satisfied with the clutch, but want something longer-lasting.
12-29-2011
Clutch/Plate No. 4: Spec. Stage II with Fidanza Flywheel (Friction Ring No. 2).
Lasted 3,749 miles before the clutch became welded to the flywheel. Strict 600 mi. (yes, 600) city break-in in moderate to heavy traffic was observed. Great light action, high short engagement.
02-16-2011
Clutch and Pressure Plate No. FIVE is about to be installed on my 2008 IS250.
I'm leaning back towards an OEM clutch kit , with Friction Ring No. 3.
What say you, Club Lexus?
FORGET THEM ALL.
That's right, in the approximately 425 days I have owned my most recent Lexus, I have spent just over $2,700 on nothing but Flywheels and Clutch Kits. At a mileage of 22,002 at the date of purchase, to the current mileage of 48,355:
The cost of drive-train components and labor for this car have been 10.2 cents per mile.
This is also not accounting for the fact that It's in the shop right now, and in about a week and $1,000, I'll have it back, and the rate will have gone to about
$8.71 per day, or 14.5 cents per mile for clutch work alone.
So here's the story. I'm mostly just complaining, because this car is KILLING ME financially, and I just need to vent, but any suggestions would be appreciated. What have the other aggressive drivers out there found to work for you? I really like the car, but it eats clutches! I've never had this kind of problem with any other Manual Transmission, from my 90's Jetta to 3/4 and 1 Ton Ford and Dodge trucks from the last several decades. Here's a brief history to let you in on the sequence of events that lead me here. Hold on to your hats, it's a wild ride!
12-10-2010
Original Clutch/Pressure Plate: Certified Pre-Owned, Original Parts, 22,002 miles at Purchase.
Lasted 1,796 miles (28 DAYS after Purchase) before the Flywheel's Internal Friction Material (Dual-Massy-ness) began to fail. I would not discover that the slippage was the flywheel wearing out internally until the removal of clutch No. 2.
01-21-2011
Clutch/Plate No. 2 were Dealer-Installed OEM parts on the re-surfaced (original, slipping) flywheel.
Lasted 5,694 miles before internal flywheel fiction ring Total Failure. After 4 days in the Dealership Shop, I was told that the flywheel was irreparably damaged, having a worn-out internal friction ring which I must have destroyed with my overly aggressive driving. The clutch too, would need to be replaced, but the flywheel, sadly, was trashed, and was the cause of the slipping this time. I demanded to see the flywheel, to be shown the damage, and when I arrived at the shop to inspect the flywheel, I was told, "we haven't actually taken it apart, we just know it's the Flywheel."I had my vehicle towed from the Dealership, and turned over all major future service for this vehicle to my personal mechanic, knowingly forsaking any Lexus warranties, and choosing to never purchase a vehicle from this dealership again. It is pertinent to mention at this point, that the IS250 in question was the THIRD vehicle that I purchased from this dealership in UNDER 9 MONTHS.
With the Transmission removed, my personal mechanic showed me OEM Clutch No. 2, and the mating friction surface of the flywheel, both in fine shape. Then he demonstrated how he could easily, and with his bare hands, rotate the flywheel a complete 360 degrees around, in either direction, without the engine turning.
In his professional opinion, the slippage had clearly been resulting from the worn flywheel all along, and the dealer should have easily detected this, but most likely simply didn't want to warranty a $1,700 dual-mass flywheel. By putting in a new clutch and machining the flywheel instead, they were able to document that I had declined a Flywheel replacement (Which I did), and give me a little more mileage out of the drive train before the flywheel failed totally. This would allow them to sell me that new flywheel at regular cost along with another new clutch kit a little later (less than an oil change later, it would turn out), and also give them grounds to deny any future warranty claims if I took it elsewhere for work of a reasonable cost.
02-10-2011
From Dealer Invoice: Guest states hears whine type noise when releasing clutch just before it engages at times. No mention of a "noisy Transmission While Releasing Clutch" TSIB, or updated transmission is mentioned. Dealer "cannot reproduce" the symptoms.
05-06-2011
Clutch/Plate No. 3 was Lexus OEM on a new Fidanza Flywheel.
Lasted 15,114 miles Before Flat wearing out. I'm overall satisfied with the clutch, but want something longer-lasting.
12-29-2011
Clutch/Plate No. 4: Spec. Stage II with Fidanza Flywheel (Friction Ring No. 2).
Lasted 3,749 miles before the clutch became welded to the flywheel. Strict 600 mi. (yes, 600) city break-in in moderate to heavy traffic was observed. Great light action, high short engagement.
02-16-2011
Clutch and Pressure Plate No. FIVE is about to be installed on my 2008 IS250.
I'm leaning back towards an OEM clutch kit , with Friction Ring No. 3.
What say you, Club Lexus?
02-16-12, 09:56 AM
#2
Dealer should have easily detected this, but most likely simply didn't want to warranty a $1,700 dual-mass flywheel.
In any case, nothing you've said sounds normal. Sounds like you've had a run of bad luck for sure.
Jeff
02-16-12, 11:37 AM
#5
There's no incentive for the dealership to screw you over. They get paid for warranty items, just as Jeff said.
If your independent mechanic found flywheel failure, then you should have reported the finding to lexus, and they probably would have replaced it for you.
The fact that you are wearing through your clutch plates so quickly and frequently suggests that your driving style is not conducive to using a manual transmission with a clutch.
The flywheel may have been a manufacturing defect, but the clutch wear is all you.
If your independent mechanic found flywheel failure, then you should have reported the finding to lexus, and they probably would have replaced it for you.
The fact that you are wearing through your clutch plates so quickly and frequently suggests that your driving style is not conducive to using a manual transmission with a clutch.
The flywheel may have been a manufacturing defect, but the clutch wear is all you.
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02-16-12, 11:51 AM
#8
I have an auto 350, so I can't inject personal experience here, but I can say definitively that this is the first post I've seen on CL complaining about excessive clutch failures. I even solicited input from the CL community on issues to include in the "Common Issues on the 2IS" section of the 2IS Buyer's Guide thread I wrote, and there was never a mention of clutch issues. So I do not think this is a problem common to manual 250 owners.
02-16-12, 12:05 PM
#9
Lexus Champion
What mods do you have? Do you drive your car like a race car?
I had a 422whp S2000 and ate through a clutch in 15k and 20k miles. I knew this was gonna happen, if you wanna play you gotta pay.
Sounds like you need an auto
I had a 422whp S2000 and ate through a clutch in 15k and 20k miles. I knew this was gonna happen, if you wanna play you gotta pay.
Sounds like you need an auto
02-16-12, 01:44 PM
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I'll admit in a hurry to being an aggressive driver, no doubt, but I was taught to drive on a tractor as a kid, and have had no problems operating a clutch in the past 20 years of driving all sorts of vehicles since then. As to the dealer not taking a loss on warranty work, while it's true that the dealer doesn't have to pay for warrantied parts, they do have to sacrifice labor, time, materials and workspace to a project that would otherwise be making a higher profit margin. R&R on a transmission while waiting for special order parts and handing out loaners could get a bit expensive. This still doesn't really make sense, as I'll point out below, just go with me for a minute.
As for the flywheel failure, reporting it to the dealer would have had no effect: when it did fail shortly after they machined it and put in clutch number 2, it was in fact the dealer that told me that the flywheel was worn out (without disassembling or inspecting anything), my mechanic just took it apart and confirmed they were correct.
As for the longevity of the clutches, lets take a look at all the failures:
First failure was arguably caused by either the clutch, the flywheel's internal friction ring, or a combination of both wearing out naturally. Original parts had 23,798 miles. I was the owner of that clutch for the last 1,796 miles. Well that's not my fault, that's just bad timing!
Second failure was identified by the dealer as being the flywheel failing internally, but as I'd declined a replacement the first time, and had them machine the surface instead, they would not warranty the flywheel when it failed, but were happy to sell me another. This still boggles my mind, because if it was a warranty covered part in the first place, why didn't they exchange it the first time? As was repeatedly pointed out, they shouldn't have been afraid of doing this, as they already had the transmission out, and it should have been no big deal, only another little bit of work at that point, paid for by warranty claims. Both my regular Salesman, who had sold me my previous two vehicles (again in less than 9 months time,) as well as my regular Service Consultant, were both adamant that they were on my side, and believed that the car should be fixed at no cost to me, and the showroom should be quickly emptied of one angry customer who buys a lot of cars. When I received no cooperation from the powers that be at the dealership, I replaced the failed flywheel with the the Spec. Flywheel, I did the clutch again for good measure since "I was already there." The clutch disc was not worn beyond service.
The Third failure was the clutch simply wearing out after 15,114 miles of use. Compared to the first clutch, which lasted 23,000 and change DOES indeed reflect my aggressive driving habits, but doesn't show catastrophic failure of any parts, just me having a grand 'ol time using the clutch that I traded my '08 ES350 with comparable mileage for. Come on, Lexus, I'm not the first driver who's been told it's 'not that kind of car,' and wondered why the hell they gave it a clutch, 9" wide rear tires and moved the torque converted to the back!
This was my train of though after the third failure: "Hmm, I've finally found a flywheel that won't fall apart, but the OEM clutch discs only last about 15,000 miles under heavy use. Maybe I should get a clutch that describes itself as needing 'a 500 mile break-in before drag-launching,' which is particularly well suited for 'Drag Racing and Pulling' among other heavy duty applications."
That doesn't seem really far out there does it? A heavy-use driver wanting a heavy-duty Clutch Kit?
The fourth failure occurred when a High Performance "Stage II" clutch bit the dust in less than 4,000 miles after a (gruelingly delicate) almost 600-mile break-in. During this break-in period, I operated the car only in "snow mode," and gave it closer to 600 miles than the recommended 500, to ensure that the clutch would receive the best break-in possible. For obvious reasons (money), I wanted this one to last a little while...
For those who are saying that I'm too rough on the clutch, you're absolutely right! But surely that doesn't excuse the downright horrid performance I've seen from these parts, one after the other. With ZERO break-in, an OEM Clutch lasts 15,000 miles, while a Spec Stage II kit with the most gentle break-in I've ever administered get's me less than 3,750? I call B.S. This thing is NOT a drag-car, and it's not a racer, sure. But is it too much to ask that a 209 HP "Sports Sedan" be able to handle it's own power without falling apart? I hope not.
P.S. An automatic? Really? I thought it was clear that the third pedal is why you by an 250instead of a 350!
As for the flywheel failure, reporting it to the dealer would have had no effect: when it did fail shortly after they machined it and put in clutch number 2, it was in fact the dealer that told me that the flywheel was worn out (without disassembling or inspecting anything), my mechanic just took it apart and confirmed they were correct.
As for the longevity of the clutches, lets take a look at all the failures:
First failure was arguably caused by either the clutch, the flywheel's internal friction ring, or a combination of both wearing out naturally. Original parts had 23,798 miles. I was the owner of that clutch for the last 1,796 miles. Well that's not my fault, that's just bad timing!
Second failure was identified by the dealer as being the flywheel failing internally, but as I'd declined a replacement the first time, and had them machine the surface instead, they would not warranty the flywheel when it failed, but were happy to sell me another. This still boggles my mind, because if it was a warranty covered part in the first place, why didn't they exchange it the first time? As was repeatedly pointed out, they shouldn't have been afraid of doing this, as they already had the transmission out, and it should have been no big deal, only another little bit of work at that point, paid for by warranty claims. Both my regular Salesman, who had sold me my previous two vehicles (again in less than 9 months time,) as well as my regular Service Consultant, were both adamant that they were on my side, and believed that the car should be fixed at no cost to me, and the showroom should be quickly emptied of one angry customer who buys a lot of cars. When I received no cooperation from the powers that be at the dealership, I replaced the failed flywheel with the the Spec. Flywheel, I did the clutch again for good measure since "I was already there." The clutch disc was not worn beyond service.
The Third failure was the clutch simply wearing out after 15,114 miles of use. Compared to the first clutch, which lasted 23,000 and change DOES indeed reflect my aggressive driving habits, but doesn't show catastrophic failure of any parts, just me having a grand 'ol time using the clutch that I traded my '08 ES350 with comparable mileage for. Come on, Lexus, I'm not the first driver who's been told it's 'not that kind of car,' and wondered why the hell they gave it a clutch, 9" wide rear tires and moved the torque converted to the back!
This was my train of though after the third failure: "Hmm, I've finally found a flywheel that won't fall apart, but the OEM clutch discs only last about 15,000 miles under heavy use. Maybe I should get a clutch that describes itself as needing 'a 500 mile break-in before drag-launching,' which is particularly well suited for 'Drag Racing and Pulling' among other heavy duty applications."
That doesn't seem really far out there does it? A heavy-use driver wanting a heavy-duty Clutch Kit?
The fourth failure occurred when a High Performance "Stage II" clutch bit the dust in less than 4,000 miles after a (gruelingly delicate) almost 600-mile break-in. During this break-in period, I operated the car only in "snow mode," and gave it closer to 600 miles than the recommended 500, to ensure that the clutch would receive the best break-in possible. For obvious reasons (money), I wanted this one to last a little while...
For those who are saying that I'm too rough on the clutch, you're absolutely right! But surely that doesn't excuse the downright horrid performance I've seen from these parts, one after the other. With ZERO break-in, an OEM Clutch lasts 15,000 miles, while a Spec Stage II kit with the most gentle break-in I've ever administered get's me less than 3,750? I call B.S. This thing is NOT a drag-car, and it's not a racer, sure. But is it too much to ask that a 209 HP "Sports Sedan" be able to handle it's own power without falling apart? I hope not.
P.S. An automatic? Really? I thought it was clear that the third pedal is why you by an 250instead of a 350!
02-16-12, 01:58 PM
#14
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Yeah it's sad how Lexus can't make a reliable manual transmission. Even on the first gens, the clutch lasted about 60k. My ex had a bimmer with 120k miles and she drove it horribly and the clutch/tranny were still going strong when she sold it.
02-16-12, 02:01 PM
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For DCoolBeans, I've made no mods. If this were a 400 BHP car, I'd be fine with 15,000 miles per clutch. This one is dead-stock, and has less than 50, 000 miles as of right now.
Does anybody have a suggestion for a clutch that can take my "Super-Sleeper's" menacing 200 Horses of Fury? I can't believe that I'm the only one out there that's noticed that this car doesn't have the ***** to be driven as aggressively as the commercial that they want to pop into your head when you see one.
It's like building a 300 foot crane, outfitting it with all-terrain equipment, painting it yellow, and writing "REEL TOUGH" in 15-foot letters on the side, but using fishing string instead of steel cable to put together the business end. When a customer comes back complaining that it broke almost immediately, the dealer would simply reply,
"Sorry, but those cables are a wear part."
"But they're made of 20lbs. fishing string, it can't even handle itself without breaking!"
"Well it's not that kind of crane, you have to be gentle."
"..."
Does anybody have a suggestion for a clutch that can take my "Super-Sleeper's" menacing 200 Horses of Fury? I can't believe that I'm the only one out there that's noticed that this car doesn't have the ***** to be driven as aggressively as the commercial that they want to pop into your head when you see one.
It's like building a 300 foot crane, outfitting it with all-terrain equipment, painting it yellow, and writing "REEL TOUGH" in 15-foot letters on the side, but using fishing string instead of steel cable to put together the business end. When a customer comes back complaining that it broke almost immediately, the dealer would simply reply,
"Sorry, but those cables are a wear part."
"But they're made of 20lbs. fishing string, it can't even handle itself without breaking!"
"Well it's not that kind of crane, you have to be gentle."
"..."