Should not have been certified?
09-09-11, 01:42 PM
#1
Should not have been certified?
Hi all,
I found out something suprizing about my car that would most likely need corporate or higher (ie. FTC).
The local dealership found out that my car's whole right side had been repainted and I did not even know about this (was not disclosed). The service director noticed it by seeing overspray on the inside of the passenger's door frame - once noticing this he then proceeded to use a paint measure device to measure it throughout the car, that is when the discovery was made. Also suspects there there maybe mud on the body panel because one particular area has almost double the amount of thickness which may indicate that there is hidden damage behind it. Car fax did not indicate anything either.
Further more, the director mentioned that this should of been detected before it was even certified because in natural light, the color between the repainted and the factory paint sort of shows up. The car also seems to have rattle/vibration on the door's too so it may indicate the doors may have been taken apart.
I did talk to the pre-sales manager at the orignal dealer that I purchased the car from and complained, but then he said that, this is normal for a car to be repainted and that if I wanted one that is perfect, I am pretty much asking for a new car. They said the car is CPOed because it is mechanically working fine and at Lexus standards and trusts his tech's that gave the stamp of approval of CPO. Since I signed the "warranty as is" they are not liable. <-- I don't think so!! I only had this car for slightly over a month.
What is your take on this? This car should not of been CPOed!
I found out something suprizing about my car that would most likely need corporate or higher (ie. FTC).
The local dealership found out that my car's whole right side had been repainted and I did not even know about this (was not disclosed). The service director noticed it by seeing overspray on the inside of the passenger's door frame - once noticing this he then proceeded to use a paint measure device to measure it throughout the car, that is when the discovery was made. Also suspects there there maybe mud on the body panel because one particular area has almost double the amount of thickness which may indicate that there is hidden damage behind it. Car fax did not indicate anything either.
Further more, the director mentioned that this should of been detected before it was even certified because in natural light, the color between the repainted and the factory paint sort of shows up. The car also seems to have rattle/vibration on the door's too so it may indicate the doors may have been taken apart.
I did talk to the pre-sales manager at the orignal dealer that I purchased the car from and complained, but then he said that, this is normal for a car to be repainted and that if I wanted one that is perfect, I am pretty much asking for a new car. They said the car is CPOed because it is mechanically working fine and at Lexus standards and trusts his tech's that gave the stamp of approval of CPO. Since I signed the "warranty as is" they are not liable. <-- I don't think so!! I only had this car for slightly over a month.
What is your take on this? This car should not of been CPOed!
Last edited by Sango; 09-09-11 at 02:06 PM.
09-09-11, 02:13 PM
#3
Yes I did look at the car and the car did look fine. The color was hard to detect since the whole side was redone.
As for the hidden damage (not disclosed), also unknown if it were not for the director who had the paint meter to measure the paint thickness. I also loooking at the CPO requirements, and since it does have rattle of some sort, it should not have been certified either (http://www.lexus.com/cpo/overview/certification.html, second paragrph).
I hope it works out.
As for the hidden damage (not disclosed), also unknown if it were not for the director who had the paint meter to measure the paint thickness. I also loooking at the CPO requirements, and since it does have rattle of some sort, it should not have been certified either (http://www.lexus.com/cpo/overview/certification.html, second paragrph).
I hope it works out.
Last edited by Sango; 09-09-11 at 04:21 PM.
09-09-11, 03:37 PM
#5
It happens but rarely does a repaint get by.
A repaint or even damaged vehicle still can be a CPO vehicle of course depending on the amount of damage that occurred.
Last edited by Joeb427; 09-09-11 at 03:42 PM.
09-09-11, 04:26 PM
#6
Yeah I would agree. It is very questionable, why is the whole side redone? Also, looks like some sanding was done on the hood too since the gauge readouts seem to indicate it was a bit thin.
The overspray as the director mentioned said, that should have been an immediate flag. That was why he proceeded to use the paint gauge to find out exactly what happened.
Furthermore, the director noticed "egg wash" texture, so this too should have been detected about the paint miss-match. This was noticeable under natural light as opposed to florescent light where it could of been missed during inspection.
------
Update:
I sent an email to the president of the selling dealership. The president has gotten their service director and general sales manager to look into the matter. I am sure corporate will get in touch with them as well.
The overspray as the director mentioned said, that should have been an immediate flag. That was why he proceeded to use the paint gauge to find out exactly what happened.
Furthermore, the director noticed "egg wash" texture, so this too should have been detected about the paint miss-match. This was noticeable under natural light as opposed to florescent light where it could of been missed during inspection.
------
Update:
I sent an email to the president of the selling dealership. The president has gotten their service director and general sales manager to look into the matter. I am sure corporate will get in touch with them as well.
Last edited by Sango; 09-09-11 at 04:37 PM.
09-09-11, 04:39 PM
#7
Honestly, this isn't your fault. You bought the vehicle trusting the dealer would have inspected it enough to classify it as a CPO. In order for a vehicle to be certified CPO it must go through 150+ points of inspection. Being there the ones selling the vehicle they should have known the car was repainted and to some level disclose the matter with you. I purchased my vehicle on June 6, 2011. I dealt with a similar situation. I learned that the vehicle had scratches, worn moldings around the windows, chipped rear reflector, and several other things. I immediately called the sales rep and expressed my concerns and I could have sworn it was a CPO, it turned out it wasn't. I was persistent and had many things changed out by the dealers courtesy. He also explained to me that before a vehicle is sold as CPO they MUST show and inform the customer before anything gets altered or "FIXED" such as newly repainted areas. The fact that mine isn't CPO certified none of those items get fixed and the car is rightfully sold as is. If it was a CPO then the price would have been a couple thousands more. Due to them inspecting the vehicle more and fixing things. Either way, I would get corporate involved....Good Luck!
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09-09-11, 05:16 PM
#8
You unfortunately have no recourse here, and that's because Lexus did nothing wrong according to the terms and conditions of the CPO program.
Here's a brochure on the program: http://www.lexus.com/cpo/pdf/CPO_E-Brochure.pdf
And here's the 161-point checklist: http://www.lexus.com/cpo/pdf/CPO_161_Checklist.pdf
Lexus uses Carfax to assess if there's anything that would indicate frame or other damage. If nothing comes up on Carfax, and no serious damage is detected during the inspection, then the car can be certified. You'll notice in the inspection checklist there's nothing saying "Verified absence of evidence of previous accidents" or anything to that effect.
Here's a brochure on the program: http://www.lexus.com/cpo/pdf/CPO_E-Brochure.pdf
And here's the 161-point checklist: http://www.lexus.com/cpo/pdf/CPO_161_Checklist.pdf
Lexus uses Carfax to assess if there's anything that would indicate frame or other damage. If nothing comes up on Carfax, and no serious damage is detected during the inspection, then the car can be certified. You'll notice in the inspection checklist there's nothing saying "Verified absence of evidence of previous accidents" or anything to that effect.
09-09-11, 05:41 PM
#9
^
True, but Lexus did miss one of these too even thou I did not mention it to them but I guess I should - this would of automatically made it not CPO as well.
Repainting a whole side, is something beyond a reasonable doubt, something has happened. The fact that it was not disclosed and or detected is another. Even the rep at corporate thought it was strange too, and yes it will be investigated.
True, but Lexus did miss one of these too even thou I did not mention it to them but I guess I should - this would of automatically made it not CPO as well.
Originally Posted by http://www.lexus.com/cpo/overview/certification.html
Every detail is inspected by Lexus-trained technicians, right down to first aid kits and spare tires. A small squeak or faint odor is enough to disqualify a vehicle
Last edited by Sango; 09-09-11 at 05:54 PM.
09-09-11, 07:25 PM
#10
^
True, but Lexus did miss one of these too even thou I did not mention it to them but I guess I should - this would of automatically made it not CPO as well.
Originally Posted by http://www.lexus.com/cpo/overview/certification.html
Every detail is inspected by Lexus-trained technicians, right down to first aid kits and spare tires. A small squeak or faint odor is enough to disqualify a vehicle
Repainting a whole side, is something beyond a reasonable doubt, something has happened. The fact that it was not disclosed and or detected is another. Even the rep at corporate thought it was strange too, and yes it will be investigated.
True, but Lexus did miss one of these too even thou I did not mention it to them but I guess I should - this would of automatically made it not CPO as well.
Originally Posted by http://www.lexus.com/cpo/overview/certification.html
Every detail is inspected by Lexus-trained technicians, right down to first aid kits and spare tires. A small squeak or faint odor is enough to disqualify a vehicle
Repainting a whole side, is something beyond a reasonable doubt, something has happened. The fact that it was not disclosed and or detected is another. Even the rep at corporate thought it was strange too, and yes it will be investigated.
On a side note, to your quote above, a small squeak or faint odor might disqualify a vehicle only if they can't be fixed or repaired. If they are repaired, then the car can be certified.
As long as the car meets the general eligibility requirements (not a salvage title, within six model years and under 70k), the only thing the car must do is pass the 161-point checklist to be Certified. The checklist is linked to above. The only reference at all on this checklist to previous accident damage/repair is at the top of the first page, where the box for Carfax history report must be checked and then either "Meets Standards" or "Does Not Meet Standards". If Carfax shows nothing, then the car can be checked off as meeting standards. In this case, apparently Carfax was clean, so the dealer could check off this car as meeting standards.
What I'd like to know, from anyone on here with knowledge of this (maybe someone who works for Lexus), is what exactly the policy is on CPO vehicles regarding previous accidents/damage/repairs. It seems there is not a strict policy on this. I have read through all the documentation I can on the CPO program. There seems to be only one hard and fast rule: it cannot be salvage title. However after that, it's unclear.
Cars that have had previous accidents and damage, even ones where this is reported on Carfax, absolutely can be Certified and sold as such. There appear to be some mystery criteria, however, by which cars with previous damage/repairs are judged as eligible for CPO or not. From Lexus' website:
HISTORY CHECKED
For extra peace of mind, CARFAX® vehicle history reports are provided for every Lexus Certified Pre-Owned Vehicle, helping you and your Lexus dealer identify potential problems that might otherwise be difficult to detect.
METICULOUSLY INSPECTED
Every Lexus Certified Pre-Owned Vehicle must pass a comprehensive 161-point inspection by a Lexus-trained technician. If any discovered flaws cannot be repaired to Lexus standards, the vehicle will simply not be certified.
THOROUGHLY RECONDITIONED
Lexus Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles must be in like-new condition. That means using only certified Lexus parts for any necessary mechanical repairs, performing paint and surface restorations to meet Lexus standards, and thoroughly cleaning and detailing each vehicle to bring out its true beauty.
So what can be explicitly taken away from this is:
1) A Carfax history report must be provided with a CPO vehicle
2) The CPO vehicle must pass the 161-point inspection, and if a flaw can't be repaired it can't be CPO
3) Repairs necessary must be performed with Lexus parts
However, this wording is vague, and questions immediately arise:
1) So a Carfax history report must be provided. But what does it truly mean to "Meet Standards" or "Not Meet Standards" on the checklist? We do know for sure that cars with accidents in their history CAN be CPO. So what in a Carfax report disqualifies a vehicle? Are there specific rules, such as the car must not have had frame damage?
2) The car must pass inspection. But what if evidence of an accident is discovered during inspection that ISN'T reported on Carfax? Must this be disclosed? Does it disqualify a vehicle as CPO? Are there specific rules here, like if it's been repaired correctly and there's no frame damage, it's OK?
3) It seems to imply that if a car needs repairs to be brought to CPO standards, Lexus parts must be used. But what if a car has had previous accident damage repaired with non-Lexus parts, and everything else about the car is perfect? Does this disqualify a vehicle? Clearly the inspecting dealer couldn't know for sure, since they don't inspect every single part to make sure it's Lexus. But I do know for sure that they'll only warranty Lexus parts - if you buy a CPO car with non-Lexus parts that otherwise are listed as covered, they will NOT be covered by warranty because they have to be sent to Lexus after the repair and Lexus will only reimburse for genuine Lexus parts. So how does this work?
If anyone has any clear answers to the above, I know I and many others on CL would greatly appreciate it. It's a shame Lexus doesn't have a more explicit policy answering these questions. In the past few months I have read about 2 specific stories from CL members where they bought CPO cars and later found either evidence of previously undisclosed significant accident damage or they ran into trouble because a non-Lexus part on a CPO car failed and Lexus wouldn't warranty it.
09-10-11, 07:02 AM
#11
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I agree with you OP. I had a case kind of like this. I purchased a BRAND NEW Acura RDX with 12 miles on it. Not sure how many of those were my test drive. After a few months, I took the car to a detail shop. The guy said, "what happend to your drivers side, this is such a new car." The whole drivers side had been painted.
I noticed a small pin hole in the paint while I was washing the car, but thought damn that sucks, how did I do that.
I went to the dealer I purchased the car from and asked if they could use a paint meter on the car. He did and said, yep the car has been repainted on the drivers side. I said that's crazy. He said where did you buy the car? I told him, I purchased the car here, at your dealership. He said, yeah when you buy cars used, sometimes we paint them to get ride of stuff. I said oh yeah, that's understandable.....But I purchased this car NEW from you guys. He then said, oh.
Pretty much telling me there is nothing they can do and yadda yadda. I called Acura and made a case and they were looking into it and all that. They saw I had purchased 8 Honda/Acura's before and I was a loyal customer.
Things took forever, so I took my loss and traded the car in on the IS250. Not sure what would have come from it. Yet I was pissed and it made me try Lexus out!
I noticed a small pin hole in the paint while I was washing the car, but thought damn that sucks, how did I do that.
I went to the dealer I purchased the car from and asked if they could use a paint meter on the car. He did and said, yep the car has been repainted on the drivers side. I said that's crazy. He said where did you buy the car? I told him, I purchased the car here, at your dealership. He said, yeah when you buy cars used, sometimes we paint them to get ride of stuff. I said oh yeah, that's understandable.....But I purchased this car NEW from you guys. He then said, oh.
Pretty much telling me there is nothing they can do and yadda yadda. I called Acura and made a case and they were looking into it and all that. They saw I had purchased 8 Honda/Acura's before and I was a loyal customer.
Things took forever, so I took my loss and traded the car in on the IS250. Not sure what would have come from it. Yet I was pissed and it made me try Lexus out!
09-10-11, 07:36 AM
#12
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When I bought my CPO ISF, they made me sign a statement saying I knew my left fender was replaced and repainted. Hope it helps. I had nothing wrong with it.
This may be a Texas rule though. I love Texas, they are always for the people...
This may be a Texas rule though. I love Texas, they are always for the people...
09-10-11, 08:54 AM
#13
Despite it potentially sucking, I see no reason for the car not to be certified. Body damage that has been properly repaired isn't really a reason to not certify a car. That being said, what is properly repaired? I think that's the main argument here, right?
Jeff
Jeff
09-10-11, 11:34 AM
#14
^
According to the director, he cannot verify that it is repaired properly. It could of been big since the whole side of the car is pretty much repainted. He does suspect there is mud on the rear passenger door since the thickness is twice is thick, than spec - hidden damage. He indicated that, probably this damage could not of been been fully repaired since the body pieces need to be replaced and factory painted, which would be expensive; therefore the cost effective way is to put mud on it to patch it up.
Also the paint does not quite match up as he was able to spot it, I did not even know. The way to notice it was to look in natural light and look at the paint texture from far and look at the whole side (which has been repainted), and compare it to the hood, or the bumpers which is the factory paint. Also, he putting his hand on the car and touching the edges of the car, near moldings, windows and certain areas of the roof and he felt roughness on the side with repaint, as oppose the other side with factory paint which is baby smooth. Also imprefection with the repaint, like fisheyes and little tiny black dots which appear to be in the paint itself or clearcoat.
His implication, is that if it was inspected properly for certification noticed the overspray - work should of been halted and start measuring the paint througout the car and therefore the problem would of spotted right away and should not be certified.
It is also possible that the car had already been repainted on that side before the selling dealership got the car and it was missed durinng the inspection.
According to the director, he cannot verify that it is repaired properly. It could of been big since the whole side of the car is pretty much repainted. He does suspect there is mud on the rear passenger door since the thickness is twice is thick, than spec - hidden damage. He indicated that, probably this damage could not of been been fully repaired since the body pieces need to be replaced and factory painted, which would be expensive; therefore the cost effective way is to put mud on it to patch it up.
Also the paint does not quite match up as he was able to spot it, I did not even know. The way to notice it was to look in natural light and look at the paint texture from far and look at the whole side (which has been repainted), and compare it to the hood, or the bumpers which is the factory paint. Also, he putting his hand on the car and touching the edges of the car, near moldings, windows and certain areas of the roof and he felt roughness on the side with repaint, as oppose the other side with factory paint which is baby smooth. Also imprefection with the repaint, like fisheyes and little tiny black dots which appear to be in the paint itself or clearcoat.
His implication, is that if it was inspected properly for certification noticed the overspray - work should of been halted and start measuring the paint througout the car and therefore the problem would of spotted right away and should not be certified.
It is also possible that the car had already been repainted on that side before the selling dealership got the car and it was missed durinng the inspection.
Last edited by Sango; 09-10-11 at 11:43 AM.