Toyota sold me a frame-damaged IS
06-08-11, 07:40 PM
#31
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What I don't understand is that the Toyota dealership bought it from auction and it clearly states on the paperwork that the car is damaged (hence the reason it's in auction). And because of the CARFAX they are claiming it as a clean car?
Don't the dealership buyers have any idea what they are buying? Surely, being a sister company of Lexus, they would know that getting an IS for what is probably considered cheap would have some kind of problem.
If so, then they sold the car and did not disclose the issue. THAT is wrong.
Don't the dealership buyers have any idea what they are buying? Surely, being a sister company of Lexus, they would know that getting an IS for what is probably considered cheap would have some kind of problem.
If so, then they sold the car and did not disclose the issue. THAT is wrong.
06-08-11, 10:49 PM
#32
It's wicked they tried to pass it off on someone. I smell a lawsuit in the air....the dealership MUST disclose any frame damage by law, just as a consumer must when trading a car in.
06-09-11, 12:38 AM
#35
OP I sincerely wish you the best of luck in sorting out this matter, but you are partially at fault for not going through the vehicle with a fine comb before signing the papers. I highly despise Carmax for selling me a crappy G35 sample, but in the end, I realized it is my fault as I'm the consumer and I should have been careful enough to take the steps to protect my *** by ensuring the car was truly "clean" - same goes for all consumers, and the same goes for you.
06-09-11, 04:27 AM
#37
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Also you bought a Lexus that a random Toyota dealer bought from auction to put in their used car lot to entice a future Lexus owner, used car people are slick sometimes. The toyota dealer i go to in tampa asked me to trade in my is350 for a used f-sport equipped 250. explaining to me how it is a better car. Keep in mind it didn't have nav or ML, mine does. I explained to them that I have a I S 3 5 0, bigger engine, almost same car mine is fully loaded. and I bought it brand new, and know there are no accidents, no paint work done, and the car is in mint condition. They told me I doubt it is in mint condition. I said yeah subtract a bumper with pitted holes from rocks and worn tires, and 60k miles its pretty mint still. They try to make a case no matter how wrong they are. I brought the car to the used lot on the way out, and said so this is worse shape than your used crap. HA! He actually walked away with his head down. I HATE BAD SALES PEOPLE. I HATE BAD USED CAR SALESMEN! I am in sales and do very well, I have done it all being 100% honest for a very long time. It is unfortunate you bought a car that is NOT CPO'd from a Lexus dealer, that may be your fault though.
06-09-11, 06:33 AM
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To clarify some of the posts, I haven't lost faith in Toyota or Lexus, just this particular dealership. My family's owned several Toyotas and my fathers owned only LS's and we absolutely love the cars. Just not happy at all with the service I got from buying from this dealership, and I have to take it up with them.
That being said, just more info on how this whole situation is unfolding with me.
Called up the dealership yesterday and I spoke to the new car sales manager, told him that I had bought a used lexus april first and I come to find now through an autocheck report that there is frame damage. In a very short tone, he asks me,
"auto check? whats that, never heard of it"
Didn't really like the tone, but being a phone conversation and as I have never heard of autocheck until now, it is what it is.
I explain to him that its like carfax, and that the vehicle was reported to be in an accident and that it was sold as having frame damaged, which was not disclosed to me at time of purchase. He tells me that his team inspects cars and that they would not sell me a frame damaged vehicle. Basically telling me I'm wrong. Little argument there as to how can I be wrong when this is reported by the state of Florida and it was titled as such by the auction place, and I have a case number for the accident. He tells me that some vehicles have slight frame damage but that if fixed and straightened its not a problem and its back to normal.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the most pristine condition a car will be in (typically) is straight from the factory (in terms of alignment). In the even of an accident with fram damage, repairs and straighting back to OEM specs, still has caused some sort of structural devience or deficiency (weakness).
He tells me that the carfax is clean and that he can check it again for me. He pulls it up and tells me that the carfax is clean and that no accidents were reported much less frame damage. Mind you I still have the carfax dated 3/31/2011, one day before I bought the car and still no accident listed.
So that means that an accident from October 2010 still had not been listed/reported (from state agency, florida) in May and now in June as well.
Sales manager tells me he will speak to the general manager and sort this out for me. I also mentioned how I've been waiting for the spare tire that was owed to me going on over two months now.
Well, lo and behold, an hour later I get a call from the general manager. He tells me that carfax takes time to pull things in and not everything is listed. And that he doesn't sell frame damaged vehicles and that this sounds like something I should take up with carfax for the discrepency.
In my mind sounds like a cop-out excuse. He then tells me that the spare tire has been ordered and that hes sorry it took so long, they had sent the wrong tire etc etc, and that next week wednesday it will be and I can stop by then to have the tire mounted for me. (didn't know that the spare tire was something that had to be mounted.....)
I then cut him off since this was just quickly losing control and I asked him why the difference in reports, and if this was listed by the auction as having frame damamge when it was being sold, why then was this not disclosed to me?
He then pulls up his carfax and asks me what my carfax says and we go over line by line and magically he tells me that I'm missing information and that on 10/24/2010 an accident was reported by the state of florida.
I find this extremely odd since an hour ago, after looking at the carfax by the sales manager nothing was there for an accident.
He then tries to tell me that frame damage maybe something very minor and that all the vehicles that are brought here are inspected and corrected, essentially same story from before. Then tells me that when I come in on Wednesday, he can have his technicians raise the car up for me and we can inspect the car to verify that there is no frame damage and put it on the tram machine to line it up and everything will be fine.
At this point I was done just hearing what I'd call band-aid patches, so I said ok well we'll see.
To clarify, never once was I rude or abrupt or raised my voice. I deal with sales as well so I know how it is to be on the recieving end of things, and sometimes you can't be mad at the person when it is in fact a problem of the system. That being said, what I still don't like is that if the dealership truelly didn't know that the vehicle was in an accident or had frame damage, wouldn't they have spotted it when they brought the vehicle in for the initial inspection?
So I decided to take it in to the Lexus dealership by my house and have the car quickly inspected by their techs. This was a curtosy check they were doing so it was quite quick, but he did say he found no visible damage to the frame by the engine, although he would have to fully check it out to see. He did say that the radiator core support was replaced and repainted (meaning it was original) the fenders had been removed for something and the hood wasn't the original hood. I asked him how he new and he said that you can tell where the bolts were turned, the paint masking lines, the hood doesn't have the original factory stickers, the radiator core support isn't consistent with OEM appereance (meaning bolts were silver when they shouldve been black). But that the vehicle has had work done on the front end and that it was in an accident.
This was all from 10 minutes of looking at it.....
So thats where all this is at currently. Thank you for the support and guidance on things you guys. Again, I know that buyer should beware, but what bothers me is that a vehicle titled frame damage at an auction purchased by a toyota dealership was sold to me without telling me that there was an accident or that there was frame damage. I know that dealerships provide the carfax out of curtosey but it just seems to me that there are too many holes in this story where the dealership 'didn't know'.
I went over this car pretty closely, just had assumed since it was listed accident free that I wouldn't have to sit there and pull panels. Don't get me wrong the car looks great, but now when I go to resell it, its already put as a frame damaged vehicle. And I had put my faith into the Toyota/Lexus system that they had already had done their inspection on things and it had passed their safety standards etc. Again, dealership problem not company problem.
And I didn't buy a CPO Lexus because this one was still under original factory warranty, so I figured I was good there, Ill just add the Platinum VSA from Troy (which I did).
Now I'm just hoping that the warranty goes through, read somewhere that if the vehicle has frame damage Lexus won't cover it?
I'm debating now though, should I talk to Toyota Corporation and tell them whats going on? Or wait for the dealership to make a move.
Because quite honestly, now that I've learned the car has had an accident with apparent frame damage, I don't want it. The value is down tremendously and its going to be damn near impossible for me to sell this now. And who knows what problems I may have later on.
That being said, just more info on how this whole situation is unfolding with me.
Called up the dealership yesterday and I spoke to the new car sales manager, told him that I had bought a used lexus april first and I come to find now through an autocheck report that there is frame damage. In a very short tone, he asks me,
"auto check? whats that, never heard of it"
Didn't really like the tone, but being a phone conversation and as I have never heard of autocheck until now, it is what it is.
I explain to him that its like carfax, and that the vehicle was reported to be in an accident and that it was sold as having frame damaged, which was not disclosed to me at time of purchase. He tells me that his team inspects cars and that they would not sell me a frame damaged vehicle. Basically telling me I'm wrong. Little argument there as to how can I be wrong when this is reported by the state of Florida and it was titled as such by the auction place, and I have a case number for the accident. He tells me that some vehicles have slight frame damage but that if fixed and straightened its not a problem and its back to normal.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the most pristine condition a car will be in (typically) is straight from the factory (in terms of alignment). In the even of an accident with fram damage, repairs and straighting back to OEM specs, still has caused some sort of structural devience or deficiency (weakness).
He tells me that the carfax is clean and that he can check it again for me. He pulls it up and tells me that the carfax is clean and that no accidents were reported much less frame damage. Mind you I still have the carfax dated 3/31/2011, one day before I bought the car and still no accident listed.
So that means that an accident from October 2010 still had not been listed/reported (from state agency, florida) in May and now in June as well.
Sales manager tells me he will speak to the general manager and sort this out for me. I also mentioned how I've been waiting for the spare tire that was owed to me going on over two months now.
Well, lo and behold, an hour later I get a call from the general manager. He tells me that carfax takes time to pull things in and not everything is listed. And that he doesn't sell frame damaged vehicles and that this sounds like something I should take up with carfax for the discrepency.
In my mind sounds like a cop-out excuse. He then tells me that the spare tire has been ordered and that hes sorry it took so long, they had sent the wrong tire etc etc, and that next week wednesday it will be and I can stop by then to have the tire mounted for me. (didn't know that the spare tire was something that had to be mounted.....)
I then cut him off since this was just quickly losing control and I asked him why the difference in reports, and if this was listed by the auction as having frame damamge when it was being sold, why then was this not disclosed to me?
He then pulls up his carfax and asks me what my carfax says and we go over line by line and magically he tells me that I'm missing information and that on 10/24/2010 an accident was reported by the state of florida.
I find this extremely odd since an hour ago, after looking at the carfax by the sales manager nothing was there for an accident.
He then tries to tell me that frame damage maybe something very minor and that all the vehicles that are brought here are inspected and corrected, essentially same story from before. Then tells me that when I come in on Wednesday, he can have his technicians raise the car up for me and we can inspect the car to verify that there is no frame damage and put it on the tram machine to line it up and everything will be fine.
At this point I was done just hearing what I'd call band-aid patches, so I said ok well we'll see.
To clarify, never once was I rude or abrupt or raised my voice. I deal with sales as well so I know how it is to be on the recieving end of things, and sometimes you can't be mad at the person when it is in fact a problem of the system. That being said, what I still don't like is that if the dealership truelly didn't know that the vehicle was in an accident or had frame damage, wouldn't they have spotted it when they brought the vehicle in for the initial inspection?
So I decided to take it in to the Lexus dealership by my house and have the car quickly inspected by their techs. This was a curtosy check they were doing so it was quite quick, but he did say he found no visible damage to the frame by the engine, although he would have to fully check it out to see. He did say that the radiator core support was replaced and repainted (meaning it was original) the fenders had been removed for something and the hood wasn't the original hood. I asked him how he new and he said that you can tell where the bolts were turned, the paint masking lines, the hood doesn't have the original factory stickers, the radiator core support isn't consistent with OEM appereance (meaning bolts were silver when they shouldve been black). But that the vehicle has had work done on the front end and that it was in an accident.
This was all from 10 minutes of looking at it.....
So thats where all this is at currently. Thank you for the support and guidance on things you guys. Again, I know that buyer should beware, but what bothers me is that a vehicle titled frame damage at an auction purchased by a toyota dealership was sold to me without telling me that there was an accident or that there was frame damage. I know that dealerships provide the carfax out of curtosey but it just seems to me that there are too many holes in this story where the dealership 'didn't know'.
I went over this car pretty closely, just had assumed since it was listed accident free that I wouldn't have to sit there and pull panels. Don't get me wrong the car looks great, but now when I go to resell it, its already put as a frame damaged vehicle. And I had put my faith into the Toyota/Lexus system that they had already had done their inspection on things and it had passed their safety standards etc. Again, dealership problem not company problem.
And I didn't buy a CPO Lexus because this one was still under original factory warranty, so I figured I was good there, Ill just add the Platinum VSA from Troy (which I did).
Now I'm just hoping that the warranty goes through, read somewhere that if the vehicle has frame damage Lexus won't cover it?
I'm debating now though, should I talk to Toyota Corporation and tell them whats going on? Or wait for the dealership to make a move.
Because quite honestly, now that I've learned the car has had an accident with apparent frame damage, I don't want it. The value is down tremendously and its going to be damn near impossible for me to sell this now. And who knows what problems I may have later on.
06-09-11, 06:34 AM
#39
Not even if it's a safety issue? The car had the record BEFORE the auction that it was damaged. The dealership bought a damaged framed car at a price probably lower than a non damaged counterpart.
06-09-11, 06:37 AM
#40
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I just have a feeling that someone knew about all this and decided to play quiet on it all....
Just too sketchy now
Over 1 month to get a shift *** that was owed to me
Over 2 months to get a spare tire
Vehicle was in an accident with frame damage
Carfax is clean 3/31/2011
Carfax is still clean 6/8/2011
carfax has an accident listed 6/8/2011 (1 hour later)
Just too sketchy now
Over 1 month to get a shift *** that was owed to me
Over 2 months to get a spare tire
Vehicle was in an accident with frame damage
Carfax is clean 3/31/2011
Carfax is still clean 6/8/2011
carfax has an accident listed 6/8/2011 (1 hour later)
06-09-11, 06:41 AM
#41
That damaged frame may be a safety issue.
It's against the law to sell a car without a spare. The reason I know that is because my friend bought used and didn't have one and they wouldn't let her take it home. The same for my IS300. It was thought there was no spare but it was found.
That place is shady. I seriously would not let them get away with it. I wonder if there is a consumer advocacy group that you can get a hold of.
It's against the law to sell a car without a spare. The reason I know that is because my friend bought used and didn't have one and they wouldn't let her take it home. The same for my IS300. It was thought there was no spare but it was found.
That place is shady. I seriously would not let them get away with it. I wonder if there is a consumer advocacy group that you can get a hold of.
06-09-11, 06:48 AM
#42
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Well the spare tire was put on the we-owe sheet and I took the car home that same day April 1st.
But now knowing this and the fact that I've been driving without a spare for over 2 months praying I didn't get a flat.....
And I don't want them to get away with anything, I'm done with this car because of the headaches it will cause me later on selling it and the fact that I feel I've just gotten scammed out of 23k.
So call the dealership, tell them I want to return the car for a full return, if they don't comply talk to Toyota/Lexus Corporation?
But now knowing this and the fact that I've been driving without a spare for over 2 months praying I didn't get a flat.....
And I don't want them to get away with anything, I'm done with this car because of the headaches it will cause me later on selling it and the fact that I feel I've just gotten scammed out of 23k.
So call the dealership, tell them I want to return the car for a full return, if they don't comply talk to Toyota/Lexus Corporation?
06-09-11, 06:54 AM
#43
I think that perhaps you can maaaaaybe try to return it on the fact that it was not fully properly represented before sale. You can always let them know that you will have a consultation with your lawyer and get back with them.
Not sure if Lexus or Toyota can do anything for you, this was a decision by the manager of that dealership on a car they bought outside, not coming from Lexus directly.
It's the same as if you bought a Ford off that lot. Toyota probably won't take any responsibility.
Not sure if Lexus or Toyota can do anything for you, this was a decision by the manager of that dealership on a car they bought outside, not coming from Lexus directly.
It's the same as if you bought a Ford off that lot. Toyota probably won't take any responsibility.
06-09-11, 07:06 AM
#44
good luck with this. I was the one that had the problem with the cpo is250 that calvin referred to.
Like he said, Lexus was not able to do anything. The only time the will do something is if there is a manufacture defect that the dealer wont fix.. or have tried but cant fix, then they will send a field technician and asses and if they cant fix it, THEN they will address the problem by buying your car back under the lemon law or replacing. Unfortunately fraud or deceptive cases does not apply to the lemon law and they will say try to work out with the dealer.
You can always filing a claim with the attorney generals office of your state but all they can do is fine them a small fee for bad practices and call the dealer for you and help faciliate a solution.. but they still cannot force them to do anything.
Carfax is garbage.. and their warranty only is effective if you sign up for it within a certain time after the report was issued. If you bought it in april.. you may still be able to sign up for the buy back guarantee from carfax.
The Claimant must have registered for the Buyback Guarantee within ninety (90) days of purchasing the Vehicle. Registration may be made online at www.carfax.com. Registrations can also be made by mail by sending name, address, telephone number, email address, the VIN of the guaranteed Vehicle and the purchase price to: Consumer Affairs Department, CARFAX Buyback Guarantee, 5860 Trinity Parkway, Suite 600, Centreville, VA 20120, USA.
http://www.carfax.com/manifest/bbg/termsConditions.cfx
You can try getting a buy back from carfax since you have proof of frame damage from autocheck and then try negotiate with the dealer in parallel. I agree with the other poster, try to be as civil and level headed when talking to the dealer. Try using the term trade in (at full value of what you paid)... rather than 'buy back' . Its symantics for us, but for them to buy back a car is a big deal and an admission of fault.
good luck and be persistent!
Like he said, Lexus was not able to do anything. The only time the will do something is if there is a manufacture defect that the dealer wont fix.. or have tried but cant fix, then they will send a field technician and asses and if they cant fix it, THEN they will address the problem by buying your car back under the lemon law or replacing. Unfortunately fraud or deceptive cases does not apply to the lemon law and they will say try to work out with the dealer.
You can always filing a claim with the attorney generals office of your state but all they can do is fine them a small fee for bad practices and call the dealer for you and help faciliate a solution.. but they still cannot force them to do anything.
Carfax is garbage.. and their warranty only is effective if you sign up for it within a certain time after the report was issued. If you bought it in april.. you may still be able to sign up for the buy back guarantee from carfax.
The Claimant must have registered for the Buyback Guarantee within ninety (90) days of purchasing the Vehicle. Registration may be made online at www.carfax.com. Registrations can also be made by mail by sending name, address, telephone number, email address, the VIN of the guaranteed Vehicle and the purchase price to: Consumer Affairs Department, CARFAX Buyback Guarantee, 5860 Trinity Parkway, Suite 600, Centreville, VA 20120, USA.
http://www.carfax.com/manifest/bbg/termsConditions.cfx
You can try getting a buy back from carfax since you have proof of frame damage from autocheck and then try negotiate with the dealer in parallel. I agree with the other poster, try to be as civil and level headed when talking to the dealer. Try using the term trade in (at full value of what you paid)... rather than 'buy back' . Its symantics for us, but for them to buy back a car is a big deal and an admission of fault.
good luck and be persistent!
06-09-11, 07:26 AM
#45
Can you refresh me again on how you know and what evidence you have that shows the auction company explicitly stated the car had frame damage when it was sold to the Toyota dealership from which you ultimately purchased the car? If you have this evidence, then take it to a lemon law lawyer, because your case is then very strong for fraud.
If the dealership purchased the car without knowing about the accident/frame damage and then sold it to you, all the while providing a legitimately clean Carfax, then they are in no way legally liable for this and the only chance you have is to hope the GM decides to help you out of goodwill.
If the dealership purchased the car from auction KNOWING CLEARLY that it had been in an accident and had frame damage AND you can provide evidence of this (perhaps in the documentation the auction company provided on the car) AND they never disclosed this to you during the purchase process, THEN you have a very solid case for fraud.
I would recommend two things:
1) First check your state laws on recording conversations to make sure you're not doing anything illegal, but from now on record your conversations with the dealership. Some states it's legal to record a conversation without the other party's knowledge, some states you have to inform them.
2) Pay the hour's labor or so at a Lexus dealership to have them fully inspect the car for frame damage, so you can get definitive proof of what you're dealing with. Right now you really have no idea what the state of your car is - Carfax says accident/frame damage, selling dealership says no frame damage, dealership that courtesy-inspected it says no frame damage, etc.
If the dealership purchased the car without knowing about the accident/frame damage and then sold it to you, all the while providing a legitimately clean Carfax, then they are in no way legally liable for this and the only chance you have is to hope the GM decides to help you out of goodwill.
If the dealership purchased the car from auction KNOWING CLEARLY that it had been in an accident and had frame damage AND you can provide evidence of this (perhaps in the documentation the auction company provided on the car) AND they never disclosed this to you during the purchase process, THEN you have a very solid case for fraud.
I would recommend two things:
1) First check your state laws on recording conversations to make sure you're not doing anything illegal, but from now on record your conversations with the dealership. Some states it's legal to record a conversation without the other party's knowledge, some states you have to inform them.
2) Pay the hour's labor or so at a Lexus dealership to have them fully inspect the car for frame damage, so you can get definitive proof of what you're dealing with. Right now you really have no idea what the state of your car is - Carfax says accident/frame damage, selling dealership says no frame damage, dealership that courtesy-inspected it says no frame damage, etc.
