3rd Generation IS350 NEEDS to be Forced Induction
07-03-12, 09:16 PM
#77
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Needs to?
Lemme drop some practicality on this.
Lexus has, by leaving the is350 with a high C/R NA engine, done what bmw and audi WISH they'ed done.
WHY? Because a 335i owner can jb/cobb/procede his car, add a few supporting mods and have an m-3 beater at a fraction of the cost. It's a litter harder with the audi but can still happen.
What happens in every "I wanna FI my is350" thread? It dies after they learn about the cost and how it'd be more cost affective to buy an is-f...FROM LEXUS. Which means Lexus turns a higher profit. Unlike bmw and audi who respectively would have sold more RS's and M3's but for their mistake in allowing for tuners to boost the lower trim models up to their flagship performance cars levels.
What we see as a failure on lexus's part is actually a cunning victory. Not MEANT to be at our expense of course. But all the same. As it stands people claiming you can FI the current IS for realistic cost are probably wrong. It's just a matter of research which no one wants to do.
E.G.
CP carillio low CR pistons (The key to safe FI):$1108
PANKL high strength rods :$1100
Pecision t3 turbo (400-500 hp)-$700
precision 400 intercooler-$300
wastegate&BOV-$400
piping $500
HKS FCON-$700
misc necessary parts-$300-$400
Labor-$1500
Total cost to FI is350-$6500
Not cheap no. But the transmission AND block of the is350 are up to MUCH higher numbers (Google Jimco buggy 800hp 2gr-fe) and this will put you at 400hp with room for safe expansion...
Lemme drop some practicality on this.
Lexus has, by leaving the is350 with a high C/R NA engine, done what bmw and audi WISH they'ed done.
WHY? Because a 335i owner can jb/cobb/procede his car, add a few supporting mods and have an m-3 beater at a fraction of the cost. It's a litter harder with the audi but can still happen.
What happens in every "I wanna FI my is350" thread? It dies after they learn about the cost and how it'd be more cost affective to buy an is-f...FROM LEXUS. Which means Lexus turns a higher profit. Unlike bmw and audi who respectively would have sold more RS's and M3's but for their mistake in allowing for tuners to boost the lower trim models up to their flagship performance cars levels.
What we see as a failure on lexus's part is actually a cunning victory. Not MEANT to be at our expense of course. But all the same. As it stands people claiming you can FI the current IS for realistic cost are probably wrong. It's just a matter of research which no one wants to do.
E.G.
CP carillio low CR pistons (The key to safe FI):$1108
PANKL high strength rods :$1100
Pecision t3 turbo (400-500 hp)-$700
precision 400 intercooler-$300
wastegate&BOV-$400
piping $500
HKS FCON-$700
misc necessary parts-$300-$400
Labor-$1500
Total cost to FI is350-$6500
Not cheap no. But the transmission AND block of the is350 are up to MUCH higher numbers (Google Jimco buggy 800hp 2gr-fe) and this will put you at 400hp with room for safe expansion...
07-04-12, 07:19 AM
#78
You forgot fuel.
Because DC on the injectors gets unpleasantly high past 7-8 psi.
and hopefully you know how to program the F-con yourself, it's $ to get someone else to.
And that assumes your pistons work- CP doesn't have an ISx50 application in their catalog (this came up last time and I provided a link to the catalog), and the piston shape needs to be pretty specific for the DI system to work correctly.
As we've been over many times- most of the work done for the 2GR-FE isn't relevant to the FSE engine (pistons are totally different, they're using totally different heads, cams, and more, and those guys are using an $8000 Motec ECU, etc)
And if you've got someone who's doing all that labor for $1500 that's a f'ing amazing deal given the amount of labor involved in replacing not only the pistons and rods, but upgrading the fuel system, plus wiring in the F-con and install plumbing of the entire turbo system. Unrealistically amazing unless this is your uncle cutting you a deal or something.
Doing all that to make 400 hp, versus spending not much more to get an F that makes 414 and has a better transmission, and can get to near 500 with bolt ons, is pretty silly.
Really though not only does it help them upsell cars- more importantly being hard to mod greatly reduces their warranty costs.
They never have to do a free repair on something that broke because Joe Hotrod chipped his ECU, then put it back to stock before bringing it to the dealer to fix what he broke on it.
Because DC on the injectors gets unpleasantly high past 7-8 psi.
and hopefully you know how to program the F-con yourself, it's $ to get someone else to.
And that assumes your pistons work- CP doesn't have an ISx50 application in their catalog (this came up last time and I provided a link to the catalog), and the piston shape needs to be pretty specific for the DI system to work correctly.
As we've been over many times- most of the work done for the 2GR-FE isn't relevant to the FSE engine (pistons are totally different, they're using totally different heads, cams, and more, and those guys are using an $8000 Motec ECU, etc)
And if you've got someone who's doing all that labor for $1500 that's a f'ing amazing deal given the amount of labor involved in replacing not only the pistons and rods, but upgrading the fuel system, plus wiring in the F-con and install plumbing of the entire turbo system. Unrealistically amazing unless this is your uncle cutting you a deal or something.
Doing all that to make 400 hp, versus spending not much more to get an F that makes 414 and has a better transmission, and can get to near 500 with bolt ons, is pretty silly.
Really though not only does it help them upsell cars- more importantly being hard to mod greatly reduces their warranty costs.
They never have to do a free repair on something that broke because Joe Hotrod chipped his ECU, then put it back to stock before bringing it to the dealer to fix what he broke on it.
Last edited by Kurtz; 07-04-12 at 07:23 AM.
07-09-12, 10:20 AM
#79
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Cp DOES Actually provide or the 2gr-fse. (due to jimco probably going to direct injection in the future) Those costs for the Rods and pistons are quoted from their rep.
You've got me on fueling, as well as the f-con program. Though alternatives to it DO exist and fcon owners on this forum seem pretty ready to help people with pin-outs and programming.
As for the jimco 2gr-fe not bein relevant I gotta agree and disagree. It's def not DIRECTLY. Relevant because of its High level o modification but keep in mind theyre also putting out high levels of power. Far and above the measly 400whp that's the big cl goal. So I'm not sure a head gasket is really necessary. Not for 100 more hp. People are running that on meth and yeah meth isn't all the time but it's also a more abrupt change in power level. Of course, I could be wrong and I'll have to pay the piper if I am for sure.
A nod to fueling: again going for only 400hp with ppe headers to take some of the work away from the f/I I might possibly be able to retain the fueling system if only for a little while. Just the same fueling (lines, pump, injectors) isn't SO expensive.
And as for work? I can do a LOT of that myself now. Minus the Pin-out in the f-con and piston/replacement. But that's because luckily for me, one of my coworkers was a mech for a race team in addition to a semi pro driver. (work connections ftw) PLUS there've already been a DIY fI on this site though his sc is currently Down (something im trying to help him with)
And finally the is-f...ohh that bulgy blue snotty snarly overdone wish-I-was-a-regular-is thingamajig....I don't WANT an isf. Why? Because they're ugly. They look like the new Subaru wrx sedan from the side...in a bad way. They are heavy. After test driving a few on some twisties I feel much more comfy in my light, dancing is350. Eight gears? I don't understand how having eight gears is really all that better. The tranny is no stronger than the is350's. It shifts faster sure but there's the hks- f-con for that. So aside from that it just has two extra gears...super. I only use my upper gears when I'm cruising anyway. I never see them when I drive aggressively (with no one around in the middle nowhere at night of course) I mean yes the lower gears to translate more torque but who knows what's possible with good f/I? Unless I'm running to top speed(which I personally never do) I won't ever need those two other gears. :/
Plus can you IMAGINE an is-f drivers face when he tries to pull away and I hang with him? Priceless.
You've got me on fueling, as well as the f-con program. Though alternatives to it DO exist and fcon owners on this forum seem pretty ready to help people with pin-outs and programming.
As for the jimco 2gr-fe not bein relevant I gotta agree and disagree. It's def not DIRECTLY. Relevant because of its High level o modification but keep in mind theyre also putting out high levels of power. Far and above the measly 400whp that's the big cl goal. So I'm not sure a head gasket is really necessary. Not for 100 more hp. People are running that on meth and yeah meth isn't all the time but it's also a more abrupt change in power level. Of course, I could be wrong and I'll have to pay the piper if I am for sure.
A nod to fueling: again going for only 400hp with ppe headers to take some of the work away from the f/I I might possibly be able to retain the fueling system if only for a little while. Just the same fueling (lines, pump, injectors) isn't SO expensive.
And as for work? I can do a LOT of that myself now. Minus the Pin-out in the f-con and piston/replacement. But that's because luckily for me, one of my coworkers was a mech for a race team in addition to a semi pro driver. (work connections ftw) PLUS there've already been a DIY fI on this site though his sc is currently Down (something im trying to help him with)
And finally the is-f...ohh that bulgy blue snotty snarly overdone wish-I-was-a-regular-is thingamajig....I don't WANT an isf. Why? Because they're ugly. They look like the new Subaru wrx sedan from the side...in a bad way. They are heavy. After test driving a few on some twisties I feel much more comfy in my light, dancing is350. Eight gears? I don't understand how having eight gears is really all that better. The tranny is no stronger than the is350's. It shifts faster sure but there's the hks- f-con for that. So aside from that it just has two extra gears...super. I only use my upper gears when I'm cruising anyway. I never see them when I drive aggressively (with no one around in the middle nowhere at night of course) I mean yes the lower gears to translate more torque but who knows what's possible with good f/I? Unless I'm running to top speed(which I personally never do) I won't ever need those two other gears. :/
Plus can you IMAGINE an is-f drivers face when he tries to pull away and I hang with him? Priceless.
07-09-12, 10:41 AM
#80
And finally the is-f...ohh that bulgy blue snotty snarly overdone wish-I-was-a-regular-is thingamajig....I don't WANT an isf. Why? Because they're ugly. They look like the new Subaru wrx sedan from the side...in a bad way. They are heavy. After test driving a few on some twisties I feel much more comfy in my light, dancing is350. Eight gears? I don't understand how having eight gears is really all that better. The tranny is no stronger than the is350's. It shifts faster sure but there's the hks- f-con for that. So aside from that it just has two extra gears...super. I only use my upper gears when I'm cruising anyway. I never see them when I drive aggressively (with no one around in the middle nowhere at night of course) I mean yes the lower gears to translate more torque but who knows what's possible with good f/I? Unless I'm running to top speed(which I personally never do) I won't ever need those two other gears. :/
07-09-12, 11:06 AM
#81
Further, the F-con won't give you the incredibly quick, and direct, shifting the M mode of the IS-F offers. It's not even a similar thing.
The ISx50 has an automatic transmission, period. The only thing you can do about that is lock higher gears out and with an F-con you can make the shifts slightly quicker (at unknown impact on transmission life)
The IS-F transmission you can have complete, direct, manual control over gears if you wish, and shifts are virtually instant.
Seriously man, if there was a cheap/easy way to make an ISx50 as powerful as an F, folks like HKS350 would've already done it. He posted in some detail about the walls he hit as far as fueling and the limits of what the F-con can do and why his estimated ~70-80 hp is about it without a massively expensive overhaul of the entire thing.
(and I'm sure cp quoted you their price for pistons- that doesn't mean they work of course... they'll custom make anything for money, but it's not a standard part in their catalog and I'm unaware of any actual custom-piston 2GR-FSEs in use)
The ISx50 has an automatic transmission, period. The only thing you can do about that is lock higher gears out and with an F-con you can make the shifts slightly quicker (at unknown impact on transmission life)
The IS-F transmission you can have complete, direct, manual control over gears if you wish, and shifts are virtually instant.
Seriously man, if there was a cheap/easy way to make an ISx50 as powerful as an F, folks like HKS350 would've already done it. He posted in some detail about the walls he hit as far as fueling and the limits of what the F-con can do and why his estimated ~70-80 hp is about it without a massively expensive overhaul of the entire thing.
(and I'm sure cp quoted you their price for pistons- that doesn't mean they work of course... they'll custom make anything for money, but it's not a standard part in their catalog and I'm unaware of any actual custom-piston 2GR-FSEs in use)
07-10-12, 01:16 PM
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Further, the F-con won't give you the incredibly quick, and direct, shifting the M mode of the IS-F offers. It's not even a similar thing.
The ISx50 has an automatic transmission, period. The only thing you can do about that is lock higher gears out and with an F-con you can make the shifts slightly quicker (at unknown impact on transmission life)
The IS-F transmission you can have complete, direct, manual control over gears if you wish, and shifts are virtually instant.
Seriously man, if there was a cheap/easy way to make an ISx50 as powerful as an F, folks like HKS350 would've already done it. He posted in some detail about the walls he hit as far as fueling and the limits of what the F-con can do and why his estimated ~70-80 hp is about it without a massively expensive overhaul of the entire thing.
(and I'm sure cp quoted you their price for pistons- that doesn't mean they work of course... they'll custom make anything for money, but it's not a standard part in their catalog and I'm unaware of any actual custom-piston 2GR-FSEs in use)
The ISx50 has an automatic transmission, period. The only thing you can do about that is lock higher gears out and with an F-con you can make the shifts slightly quicker (at unknown impact on transmission life)
The IS-F transmission you can have complete, direct, manual control over gears if you wish, and shifts are virtually instant.
Seriously man, if there was a cheap/easy way to make an ISx50 as powerful as an F, folks like HKS350 would've already done it. He posted in some detail about the walls he hit as far as fueling and the limits of what the F-con can do and why his estimated ~70-80 hp is about it without a massively expensive overhaul of the entire thing.
(and I'm sure cp quoted you their price for pistons- that doesn't mean they work of course... they'll custom make anything for money, but it's not a standard part in their catalog and I'm unaware of any actual custom-piston 2GR-FSEs in use)
I can't really argue with the tranny argument. The is350 tranny wasn't meant to outperform the isfs and it NEVER will, you're right. But I'm just not so overly I
Pressed with the isf tranny that I'd consider buying that over modding a 350 because of the transmission alone. It's just not a heavy enough factor.
07-10-12, 01:20 PM
#83
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Do a bumper swap back to ISx50 bumpers, fenders/side skirts can probably be swapped too. Still much cheaper than the alternative here if it's looks holding you back. And I'm pretty sure it uses the 8 gears very effectively. Otherwise, i think they would have done their homework to see if 6 gears would have done the job better....
I'd imagine his wallet is fatter, and that's what slowed him down from pulling on you. haha
I'd imagine his wallet is fatter, and that's what slowed him down from pulling on you. haha
07-10-12, 01:43 PM
#84
You can swap to the ISx50 panels on the IS F. The only difference in track is the front is 5mm wider. The rear is the same. You may have to run a slightly shorter front tire though, since I believe the IS F front opening is taller (for more clearance, the IS F runs taller front tires than the ISx50).
Jeff
Jeff
07-10-12, 02:30 PM
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You can swap to the ISx50 panels on the IS F. The only difference in track is the front is 5mm wider. The rear is the same. You may have to run a slightly shorter front tire though, since I believe the IS F front opening is taller (for more clearance, the IS F runs taller front tires than the ISx50).
Jeff
Jeff
What about the hood? I HATE the hood bulge worse than anything on the car...and wouldnt a painted bumper, fenders and hood run me minimum seven grand anyway? With the OEM*
Parts and then the triple layer paint etc.
Last edited by Kingdavid; 07-10-12 at 02:34 PM.
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